Sweeney: ______________ Archives of Old Dominion University, and today the 19th of September, 1978, I’m interviewing General Lemuel Shepherd, Retired General of the United States Marine Corps. General Shepherd, you were born in Norfolk in 1896 and you spent much of your youth here. Could you share with me your recollections of the city in those years and where you went to high school and general facts about Norfolk.
Shepherd: Thank you, Mr. Sweeney. I was born on Freemason Street, one door from where the present Baptist Church is which in those days was a very nice neighborhood. The Moses Myers House was just across the way, which has become famous in recent years. I played with the Myers boys. That house, which has been torn down, was a very historic old house. And a number of my friends lived in the neighborhood. I went to school initially at a private school by the name of St. George’s, which was on the corner of York and Botetourt. I walked to school every morning, thought nothing of it, mile or so. And then later I went to the Norfolk Academy and, which is just around the corner so to speak. There I met a number of very fine young men - quite a few came over from Portsmouth in those days to go to school in Norfolk - and we formed many warm friendships. I was at the Academy for five years. The last two years, I believe it was, that I went to the Academy my family had moved to Ghent where I lived at 803 Colonial Ave. and even that distance we walked every morning to school and a group from this area would join up as we went along, picked up boys on the way over and came on back. I’m rather amused today when I hear about the free lunches they all got to have. There was an old Jamaica darkie named … Cheap Charlie, Cheap Charlie (hee-hee), and he ran a little doughnut stand with some coffee there. And we used to get our coffee and doughnuts or lemonade and doughnuts from Cheap Charlie. He spoke with a very definite British accent and we were all thrilled to listen to Cheap Charlie talk. Well then the Academy began to go down a little and the distance was right far and my friends in Ghent were all started into the Maury High School which I attended for two years. I t being only about six blocks from where I lived we had a very nice association. I was on the football team, I was manager and captain of the track team and we competed in local matches.
And then I, in 1913, in fall 1913, I went to VMI. Although I hadn’t planned a military career - ‘matter of fact my mother wanted me- -my father wanted me to be a doctor to follow in his footsteps but I didn’t cotton to that too much. My mother thought I might like engineering. Well, I had been in my youth interested in electronics, I was a ham operator, one of the first around Norfolk. And I could read the codes and so forth, liked electrical engineering. So that appealed to me and a number of Norfolk boys were going to VMI at that time, so we all went up together and went through the usual rat year at VMI, survived and continued, I was made a Corporal that year. And I continued my studies there for the following four years. I was not a brilliant student, stood- -standing about the middle of the class upon my graduation, which occurred on the third of May. To go back a little, with World War I coming on in the spring of 1917, we had received certain lectures on the operations in Europe, and two of my roommates were- -had gone to VMI to get- -to obtain commissions in the regular Army. The other one, a Norfolk boy named ________ Robertson and I, being from Norfolk we decided we’d rather be Marines, since we thought we’d be serving with the Navy. And that- -we- -that seemed to appeal to us at that time more than being in the trenches with the Army. But anyhow, they- -so our requests were sent to- -to- -let’s see war was on on the 26th of April - the 27th of April - and the following week was when we applied to Gen. Nichols for a commission. And he said, “Well I’ve given out the ten commissions that we were awarded for the Marine Corps, but I’ll call Gen. Barnett and ask him if he can- -if I can give several of you” – there were about six of us interested at that time – “and have some more of these commissions.” And Gen. Nichols said, “Send these young men to Washington.” So we borrowed the money to get to Washington (chuckle), on the train stood up all night from Lynchburg and reported the next morning to the examining board at the Marine Barracks, H and I Streets, Washington, D.C. And they sent us over to- -the senior member of the board sent us over to the surgeon for an examination which of course we passed without any difficulty. And returning that afternoon after luncheon to the board, and the board looked us over and said, “Well, we’ve been informed by the superintendent of VMI that you will graduate this coming June and your physical examination appears correct – you are in line for a regular commission in the Marine Corps. But it will take some months for that to be passed by Congress. In the meantime, if you would like to accept a- -if you will accept a reserve commission we can commission you right away.” So we all said, “Yes, Sir!” And we held up our right hands and were sworn in as Second Lieutenants on the 15th of April, just ten days after war had been declared, and returned to VMI Second Lieutenants in the Marine Corps. We hadn’t been back in school over two weeks before we received orders to report for duty. Active duty, Parris Island. So we- -we were graduated on the third of May. I always recall that date because that was the date that Stonewall Jackson who was a great hero at VMI where he taught and had always been a hero of mine, won the battle- -he began the Battle of Chancellorsville where he defeated the Union forces and before the battle he said to several VMI men on his staff, “VMI will be heard from today.” And I sort of have taken that as a motto throughout life.
Well, upon reporting to Parris Island, we were shooting on the range- -we were supposed to attend an officers’ school there but the first part of it was shooting on the range. Well, after two weeks of that the senior instructor called us in one day, he said, “There’s a opportunity to- -we’ve been directed to ask for volunteers for a regiment going overseas. We had a friend who- -we had knew, class- -school mates of ours whom we had met as we came into VMI, were going out to Santo Domingo in Haiti, and we thought well gee that’d be the place to be. Foreign duty in the tropics – that had a great appeal. So we all held up our hands. And so the next thing we knew we were ordered to Philadelphia. When we arrived there on the first of June they said, “You are going over to France.” Well it turned out very well, we had six or eight of us, all VMI boys, and we all ended up in the same battalion. And we sailed for France on the fifteenth of June, I think it was, or maybe the tenth of June and landed in France on the 27th of June. And that was the day that the remainder of the class- -my class at VMI were graduated from their college that we landed in France.
Well I spent the next two years in France. We were the Fifth Marines, initially attached to the First Army Division for six months. We trained with a French chercher [Chauchat?] regiment and then when the First Division was formed in November of 1917 the Second Division, the fourth Marine Brigade to which I belong- -which the Marin- -two Marine regiments belonged were the 9th and 23rd Infantry regiments forming the Second Division – and we went to the lines on the 15th of March. After a tour at Verdun we were sent up back of Catigny to lead the First Division who had just gone into action there. It was about that time that the Germans broke through the Chemin des Dames, and General Pershing offered what American troops he had to help stop the debacle. And the brigade was order- -the Division was ordered to Chateau Thierry to stop the German drive. Well that was a very- -we left having stood up all night waiting for the first camions we finally got ‘em early- -we finally arrived early in the morning and we arrived at, near Chateau Thierry late that afternoon. We started marching, we marched till midnight and then they said well take a rest and so we slept for an hour, didn’t take off our packs, and then early the next morning started out and marched until 4 o’clock that afternoon. It was hot. We were still wearing overcoats and the roads were dusty. The French were- -poor French peasants were retre- -were falling back, were going to the rear. The carri- -baby carriages, the donkey carts they were a pathetic sight. We were marching to the front, they were going to the rear. And so we camped at a place called P_______ Farm, and the next morning we were ordered up to the lines. And my company took position around a farmhouse called the Mayor’s Farm, where we formed a defensive position, told to hold at all costs. And the next morning the Germans attacked, we repulsed the attack, I was wounded in that operation, not seriously. But- -and we held there for 3 or 4 days. Well it turned out later on that the Mayor’s Farm was the closest point to Paris reached by German troops in that offensive, which has always been a matter of interest to me.
Then several days later we withdrew from that position and began our attacks on Belleau. Here again I was wounded this time more seriously and was evacuated to the hospital in Paris where I spent the next three months recuperating. Then I returned to my regiment where there was fighting prior to the Battle of Saint Mihiel which I participated in and after that the- -one of the worst battles of the war was at Dormans ridge in Champagne where I carried on for- -during the battle and after we were withdrawn from the lines in reserve 77 German shell hit- -burst close by and I was wounded again and ended the war in the hospital at Beaune. Well after the war I had an opportunity to go to England on full marshall duty and I said no I wanted to return my regiment and so I did and joined ‘em on the Rhine on the first of January and spent the next nine months on the Rhine. Upon return to the States, I at that time was Assistant Brigade Adjutant, and the Brigade Adjutant Major Charlie Barry conceived the idea of making a relief map of ____________________ for historical purposes. Because I had had some engineering experience, he asked me to join him which I did and so we made this return to France within a month and spent the next four months over there making this- -the sketches for this relief map which we completed in the United States during the following six months.
Sweeney: Well, I wanted to ask you one question. You mentioned that you went with your regiment on the Rhine and that was occupation duty in Germany after the war ended. What reaction did you get from the German people, did they seem to be bewildered, did they seem to be bitter against their leadership, or could you get any feeling of what the Germans were feeling themselves after the war?
Shepherd: Well, we were surprised at how cooperative they were. Of course the German people were used- -accustomed to obeying orders and as far as they were concerned the war was over. I do not recall any comments of antagonism toward the Kaiser. ‘Matter of fact, we were not permitted to fraternize with the Germans. Now we were billeted with the Germans. I was billeted in this dwelling, ‘matter of fact the family ran a bakery. And they were very nice to me and the young man of the household had been with the German army fighting in Russia. And we- -I used to say, “Good morgan” and “Machen the fire,” “Bring us the wasser,” that was the extent of my German. But the family was very, very nice and I remember when I subsequently was ordered to Brigade Headquarters they gave me a May Day party when I left. And some years later I came back there and met the same family again and they were most … most friendly. No, I did not reali- -I did not notice any antipathy. If they didn’t do something, and I remember our battalion once they got out and singing too many songs on the streets, he got out there and told ‘em they could lock ‘em all up, put ‘em to work sweeping the streets, which that was the standard punishment, if they disobeyed the so-called burgomaster, why, they put ‘em to work sweeping the streets. But there was no antipathy that I noticed.
Sweeney: Did you meet Colonel Hagan during the First World War?
Shepherd: Colonel Hagan and I were school mates at VMI and it happened that I came into the Corps ahead of him as I have just described. ‘Course he had graduated a year before and was in business. But in the fall of 1917, Col. Hagan joined the same battalion that I was in, the Second Battalion, the Fifth Marines, and we saw each other frequently and continued our friendship increased in warmth. And we’ve known each other throughout the rest of our lives. As a matter of fact, during World War II while I was in the Pacific, Col. Hagan- -I received a letter from him saying he was over at … anyway he was out in the Pacific- -Noumea, Noumea, and as a ______________ he would like to get over to join my brigade. I had the First Marine Brigade at the time. And so it was arranged that he join my brigade as a staff, and I welcomed because he was a contemporary and a friend of mine and there are many things that I used to talk over with him that I, because of our friendship, because of his age that I couldn’t necessarily talk over with some of my junior officers. And our friendship has continued throughout the years. I always came to see him in Norfolk, I was here last spring and went to see him for the last time. And he is a very wonderful person, he’s very civic minded as you well know. His statues of Moses and Ezekiel which he’s taken me to I’ve seen ‘em, and we talked about that project for several years before his final completion. I think he’s a great man. A wonderful friend, devoted friend, a great churchman, and a great citizen of the City of Norfolk.
Sweeney: In the 1920’s, 1927-29, you were with the Fourth Marines in China. Could you describe your experiences there? I believe that you were in Shanghai and could you describe what the situation was like?
Shepherd: Well, in 1927 I was on duty at the Marine Barracks Navy Yard, Portsmouth, Virginia, in command of the East Coast Sea School. And I like all good Marines when the situation became intense in China I was- -wanted to get into it. And at that time because I held a semi- -a job that was supposed to be a permanent one, not to be changed every few months, I was told initially that no, I had to continue and finish my tour there before I would be sent overseas. Well, I wasn’t happy about that and so I started doing a little politicking – I had some friends that I wrote to, to please put some pressure on the Secretary of the Navy and, which he did. Well, anyhow finally I got to China. Colonel Davis who was a Commander over there and I both worked on it and we finally got over to- -first we went to the Philippines and then from the Philippines up to Tientsin. And about that time the Commanding Officer of the Fourth Marines in Shanghai had died, Col. Davis was ordered to command the Fourth Marine Regiment in Shanghai and took me with him as his Adjutant. And I spent the next two years in Shanghai. And it was a very interesting situation. The- -that was when Chiang Kaishek was a- -driving North with his forces from South China with the aid at that time of the Communists. Later he got rid of a man named Borodin who was the chief Communist, and continued the drive _______, I mean continued the drive Northward and without the communist help. But I was in Shanghai when Chiang Kaishek was married as a matter of fact I remember so well I wasn’t invited to his wedding. But I stood on the sidewalk outside the Majestic Hotel and he and Madame Chiang Kaishek emerged from their reception. Indeed it was interesting, there were 15,000 British troops there, which made it an international affair. And the idea was, the purpose of our being there was to defend Shanghai from the advancing Chinese armies because they had looted Hankow. They had killed Americans in Nanking on their advance down the Yangtse River. And the British and American forces said this is just too much, and we are going to send troops out there to defend the international settlement. Now Shanghai was composed of an international settlement and there an American concession, a British concession, a French concession, Italian concession, all those units had troops there- -all those countries had troops there to protect the city, the proper, because if the Communists had come in they’d have wrecked the city and in China all the financial interests would have been lost. It’s difficult in this day and age when we have this human rights business and all the independence of every little state, but things were entirely different fifty or a hundred years ago and so I won’t go into that in this discussion. But I spent two years there, and one of my children were born there in the Fourth Marines. And it’s interesting that at the time of his birth this boy was the first baby born to Fourth Marines and they gave him a little silver cup to the newest recruit. Well, some twenty years later when I commanded the Fourth Marines as a Brigadier General and for the First Marine Brigade I told the regiment that story and they’ve always been one of my top regiments, the Fourth Marines.
Sweeney: Now, during the 1930’s did you have any experiences that were outstanding prior to going into World War II? What was the nature of your duty in the 1930’s?
Shepherd: In the 1930’s I had just completed the Marine Corps School, the Senior Course, and at that time the United States had a mission in, or had a brigade in Haiti and they also had a constabulary established there to teach the Haitians how to govern themselves militarily. And I- -Gen. R. P. Williams had just gone there in command and he and I, he knew me, and he requested I be sent to Haiti for duty with the constabulary. What they call the Garde de Haiti. So I spent the next four years with my family in Port-au-Prince, and to me it was the most interesting duty I have ever experienced. It was … I had command of- - my troops were all Negro troops, Haitians, they- -the officers initially were white of course, but former non-commissioned officers who had been in Haiti some time spoke Creole and then a few white officers. But they were all integrated and in Haiti the constabulary was a military police. They … well, they ran the country and kept stability when occasions arose where there was a disturbance or near riot or trying to overthrow the president which they did every few years. Why the Garde was in on it and we stopped the rebellion. So during that four-year period I was able to gain a great deal of background material which did me in the way of command and I loved to travel throughout the mountainous area. I covered, I’d go out on a trip through the mountains for ten days, mule back and got to know the natives and covered, when I was attached I was Commander of the Department of Port au Prince which covered the entire center area of Haiti, extending from St Marc on the East coast to all the way across on the Dominican border to the coast on the other side. And to go out in the hills and talk to the different Chefs de Sections as they called ‘em, the ___________ as they were known as, and they always were very polite, “Bonjour, Blanc” and they were the great- -we did a great deal to, I think, bring Haiti up from the- -from what it had been to a good country. It didn’t last too long after we left, but still that’s another story.
Sweeney: Now, we can pass to World War II. You were involved in numerous campaigns in World War II. I’d like you to talk about your experiences in World War II and about your opinion of General MacArthur and his leadership. Why don’t you start with the, I believe it’s Cape Gloucester landing in New Britain Island.
Shepherd: Well, to go back a little I, at the beginning of World War I, I was Commandant of the Marine Corps Schools in Quantico. No, I wasn’t Commandant I was head of the detachable section. And naturally anxious to get into the war and when I was sent to the West Coast I organized and commanded a Ninth Marine Regiment, part of the Third Division. After the Division- -after the Regiment was ordered overseas we went to New Zealand first and then up to Guadalcanal, and in July of 1941 I was promoted to Brigadier General and ordered to Assistant Division Commander of the First Marine Division which at that time was in Melbourne, Australia recuperating from the Guadalcanal campaign. And I spent several months there and then the Division was ordered up from Melbourne to the Northern part of Australia and then to Goodenough Island which is a small island off of North- -East coast of Australia. And on Christmas Day we landed on Cape- -at Cape Gloucester on the Island of New Breton. It was General MacArthur’s first initial thrust Northward toward the Philippines, of course he put great stress on this campaign. And it was our first- -my first bodily contact with the Japanese. The landing was successful and- -initially, although it was made under most difficult conditions. We had a great lack of transport for the troops and equipment, but we got ‘em ashore. And General Purvis in command of the First Division advanced to the North to the tip of Cape Gloucester and I was directed to establish the beachhead and insure that the supplies arrived and to attack- -after the capture of Cape Gloucester to command a two regiment remaining and to attack to the Southward. Well that turned out to be the biggest part of the campaign. The Gloucester operation was, oh, within ten days, but it took about three months’ fighting before we finally cleared the Japanese from the Southern half of the Island of New Britain. And it was quite an operation. Dense jungle, we had rain, rain, a typhoon hit us after we had been there a week and we could have 20 or 30 inches of rain a day and everything was in a quagmire. And the physical difficulty of that campaign I’ve never experienced anywhere else. But we did the job, and we cleared the- -ran all the Japs- -kept pushing ‘em Southward toward Rabaul and I think the report said of the whole Japanese division that was on the island only about three hundred of ‘em finally escaped. But it was a very, very hard campaign, but it was all part of the war and looking back on it now I know that I gained a great deal of experience from it.
Sweeney: General, I’d be interested in your recollections of the campaign on Guam.
Shepherd: Well, on Easter Sunday morning of 1943 was it, I think, I was at Division Headquarters and writing the- -my operation report of the operation on Cape Britain and being very pleased with the results in the- -of the campaign and looking forward to _____ my appointment to command the First Marine Division, which I had been told that I would relieve General Purvis. That Easter morning the dispatch arrived of the Commandant ordering me to proceed to Honolulu and organize the First Marine Brigade composed of the Fourth Marines reconstituted and the Twenty-second Marines which had just finished a campaign on __________. Well, at the moment, at that time I frankly was sort of disappointed because I had looked forward to commanding a Division with which I had fought which I knew its officers, and it was a number one division at the time of the Marine Corps, but nevertheless- -so I crossed the Pacific and reported to Gen. Hollingsworth – he said that they wanted to form this- -the Marine brigade for an operation on Guam and I had been selected personally by him to command these two regiments to- -for this operation together with the Third Division. So I returned to Guadalcanal where the regiment of the 22nd was _____________ went to and a fourth was being formed and we only had a matter of six weeks ________ before that operation on Guam and was to take full embarkation for the operation. And so it was quite a task to organize these two reinforced regiments to form the reinforcing units into units themselves, separate units themselves under the Brigade Commander. And we took off some time in June for landing in Guam. Well, the landing on Guam was preceded by landing on Saipan. Well, they expected the landing on Saipan to last a couple of weeks. Instead it lasted about two months. So during about 60 days, during that time, the Brigade was at sea, crowded into transports and on LST’s _______ cruising back and forth, back and forth across that part of the Pacific, which was a very, very harrowing experience for the men. We stopped at Ulithi, which was a small atoll I recall some time just prior to- -in the first part of July and there in the lagoon of the atoll was the entire United States Pacific fleet. Some six hundred vessels I think there were. A magnificent sight and we all went ashore that night and, the last night we were there, and had a party. And then several days later landed on the North coast of Guam opposite a place called Agana. Well, the operation was extremely difficult because there were five hundred yards of fringing reef off the coast. And by fringing reef I mean coral reef that was two to three feet deep which you couldn’t cross walking and the only thing you would be able to cross it with was amphibian tractors. Now today fortunately we all have, amphibian or marine units have amphibian tractors which of course it was like a tank. But in those days we didn’t have- -we only had a limited number. I think we had one company of the entire Brigade, so we had to form a transfer line off the reef where there were some lighters anchored and the troops came from the transports onto the lighters and then as each- -each time the amphibian tractors would go ashore with one wave then they’d have to come back and pick up the next load and carry ‘em shore so it was quite an operation. All within s- -right under the guns of the Rota Peninsula where the Japanese were well fortified with heavy guns and of course the defenses they had off shore. So it was a most difficult operation but we fortunately were able to succeed. I don’t think that the Japanese exerted their best intelligence- -I mean I think that if we were to _____________ we could have done a lot more damage than they did. But they fought tenaciously ashore and we, first we captured the- -Agana and that surrounding area and then Sumai where the Marine barracks had been, the old Marine barracks which of course had been destroyed when the Japanese had it, and the flag pole still standing. So we had been fighting for several weeks before we captured that, so when we did I said we’ll have a ceremony. So we got a flag, and I invited Gen. Smith and Adm. _________ ashore, and at late afternoon we raised the American flag on the same flagpole that had been there during the war and the old Marine barracks had been destroyed. And the bugler who blew to the colors did it on a Japanese bugle which he had captured. Well it was a very impressive ceremony and one that was very heartwarming because I felt personally we had captured American territory. Now when we were fighting on New Britain and some of the other atolls it was all British and this-that-and-the-other. But here was a piece of American land and we went in and recaptured our own and raised our own flag over our own land, so to me it was always a very emotional campaign which I felt very sentimental about. Well, the campaign continued and we went up to the Northern tip of the island and finally on the 21st I think it was of July the island was secured and we were all very happy to- -that we finally overcame the Japanese. And they fought tenaciously there too in various places. We lost a lot of people. In one spot I recall they made an all-out charge one night at the Rota Peninsula – that’s where the airfield was; that’s where the Navy forces were defending the harbor – and they made this all-out attack on the 22nd, night of the 22nd, and the Japanese _________________ were gonna make an all-out, what do they call a banzai attack, that they’d give the troops all a shot of saki, get ‘em all hopped up and then they’d go forward shouting, yelling, “’Mericans- -Marines, prepare to die, Marines prepare to die!” And they’d come on but we held our lines, there were- -when I went up the next morning there were Marines and Japs in the same foxhole where they died fighting. And I carried some four hundred Japanese soldiers in an area about 400 ______ square in front of the line. We just pulled down a barrage on ‘em and we really just massacred ‘em. That was the last real serious counterattack that we experienced, and I think we sorta’ mopped up ___________ that and I’ve always been very proud of the fact that we did withstand and the men held their- -fought like demons that night to kill off the attacking Japanese forces. And so I think it was on the 21st of July the island was declared secured and the campaign was over.
Sweeney: Did you know Lewis Philson who is the- -Lewis Wilson the- -who won the Medal of Honor on Guam- -is- -he became Commandant, or is he presently the Commandant of the Marine Corps?
Shepherd: Yes, I’ve known Lew Wilson since he was a Second Lieutenant. He was in the first, or second, Candidate for Commission Class at the Marine Corps Schools while I was Commandant- -I was Assistant Commandant of the schools and placed directly in charge of this candidates training program. And at the time I remember he was a outstanding- -an outstanding officer. Whether I pinned his Second Lieutenant bars on him I don’t specifically remember. But anyhow I do remember him very well as a candidate for commission in July I think it was of 1942, 1, somewhere along in there. Right after- -it was just before the war- -it was before the war, yes, before- -the summer before the war began, the summer that the war began, that’s right. Well, then later when I formed the Ninth Marines in … when I formed the Ninth Marines the following March, it was, March the 15th the following year, he was one of my officers. And I naturally saw quite a bit of him during the next nine months and became very fond of him and knew him personally and then subsequently he was not under my command when he won his Medal of Honor. He had been transferred to the Third Division at the time when he won his Medal of Honor. But in later years when he was Commanding General of _________ Marine Corps of the Pacific which was a position I had had during the early part of the Korean War, why I visited him on several occasions and then again when he became the Commandant of the Marine Corps he also followed in my footsteps and we communicate every couple of weeks with a note one way or the other. Very fine officer, one of the outstanding officers and a lovely wife.
Sweeney: Now the third major engagement that you were involved in in World War II, the climactic campaign in 1945 in Okinawa. That was certainly very bloody, and the Japanese engaged in Kamikaze suicide tactics. Could you give me your recollections of that- -of the battles of Okinawa.
Shepherd: Well, I most assuredly have very vivid recollections of the battle- -Okinawan campaign I’ll call it. It was more than just a battle, it lasted about eighty-nine days. Well, at that time the First Marine Brigade, which I previously referred to, had been increased by the addition of another reinforced regiment to a Division. Twenty thousand men, and it was the Sixth Marine Division. It was formed overseas and subsequently disbanded overseas. It never did duty in the United States. But in view of the fact that we had Fourth Marines which had- -and the Twenty-second both of which had been in combat the previous year and ____________engagement, they were battle trained. The Twenty-ninth was formed of some of the finest non-commissioned officers who were still in the- -who had done a great deal of the training at Parris Island and San Diego. It was a very fine regiment. And so we _________________ we were on Guadalcanal, and I had a very experienced staff and by that time I had been through a couple of campaigns and I was able to put that Division through a training course that I think when we left Okinawa it was the most professionally trained Division of the Marine Corps. We just concentrated on every phase of operations – tank, infantry, attacking towns, fortified towns and all types of warfare. Having been in the Marine Corps Schools for three years I was naturally had studied a great deal and taught tactics so I was able to pass on what knowledge I had and with the very fine officers I had on my staff we were able to really give that Division a thorough training. And I think that they were tops. Well, we landed on Okinawa on the first of April, on Easter Sunday morning, 1945. A very significant day. I’m a good Christian and the fact that we were landing on Easter Sunday I felt we were on a moral Christian crusade, fighting against the infidels, so to speak. Well as you already read about the battle there was very little resistance. On the beaches there was scattered resistance and the Division advanced without great difficulty and we seized initially Ishikawa airfield which was our first objective. We had expected to spend a week or ten days taking it but the first night we were able to seize it. A rather amusing incident happened. The Fourth Marines were surrounding the airfield and my command posted nearby and just at dusk a Japanese plane flew overhead, circled the field a couple of times and finally landed on the strip and I’m very proud of the fact that not a man fired his rifle at this plane until after the pilot had gotten out and with his little briefcase started toward the tower. And then every man in the Regiment began firing. {chuckle} And so I ran out with the others in the vicinity and the poor pilot laying in a pool of blood on the ground, and some old sergeant looking down and says, “Ah, some poor SOB who don’t get the word.” {chuckle} He had apparently not been told by his superiors that we had captured the air field at Ishikawa that morning. Well then the following day we began our advance to the North. And the Twenty-second went up both coasts of the Northern tip of Okinawa and then the tank infantry attack which I think that equal that- -similar to that one made by General Patton in Europe. The Fourth Marines assisted by the Twenty-ninth had turned to the West and on the Itoman Peninsula, and there we encountered our first real serious resistance on the Battle of Mt.Yonaha-dake which was a very tough battle. Lasted several days, we finally- -we were- -because we were blocking the base of the peninsula we practically decimated every Japanese on it. Well after I- -after seizing the Northern half of the island, on April the 20th the Division was ordered to attack Southward. So I was to join the Tenth Army on the- -as the West coast- -there was a zone of action on the West coast of Okinawa, of the island of Okinawa. And as part of the Third Corps which we did. And we crossed the Urasoe River with a night crossing which was a tough fight. The Japanese were well defended- -had defended the Southern part of the island under General Hiroshima. He was a great Japanese general and he had constructed a series of defensive position on the Southern part of the island was almost impregnable. The terrain was a coral formation and easily honeycombed with machine gun nests and fortified positions, but each one had to be overcome with tanks, bombing. It was a tough fight right on down. Being the flank division, I had more mobility than the First Division which was on our left and the Army troops on to the East of the island. Well anyhow, we advanced Southward some fifteen or twenty miles and we finally reached the main line of defense of the Japanese army which was very well constructed extending from a place called Conical Hill on the East coast which the army- -the Army Corps was fighting for, through a mass- -a hill mass called Shuri Castle which was a high piece of ground commanding the entire end of the island. There had been a castle there in the old days of the Okinawans. And then the line extended from there to the Westward to a place called- -which we call Sugarloaf Hill. It just happened that Sugarloaf Hill was a mound on the Western coast near the coastline, the Western coast of Okinawa. And it was honeycombed with Japanese defenses and it was supported in the rear by two other smaller hills which we named Half Moon and Crescent. So when we- -everything was going along fine until we hit Sugarloaf Hill. Well, for fifteen days we attacked and attacked and attacked and we’d get to the top and we’d be driven off. Well we didn’t know that all- -at the time that the Japs were being fed in from these two rear positions. We hadn’t gotten around to the back where they had tunnels that ran from the rear positions on up into Sugarloaf and as fast as we’d kill ‘em off they’d attack or they’d come out in the rear of us and we several times got to the top of the hill – wonderful officer named Courtenay who got a Medal of Honor later got to the top and fought there. And, but he was- -we were driven off. And one of the- -a local, a local officer by the name of _________ Woodhouse – his family was well known here in this part of Princess Anne County at the time, happened to be a distant cousin of mine – and he commanded the Second Battalion of the Twenty-second Marines and he was killed in this attack on Sugarloaf. But it was a very tense situation __________ ran on for about two weeks before we finally- -our attack infantry attacked- -got around behind Sugarloaf and behind the other two hills and were able to overcome this bastion, the Western bastion of the ______ line. And by seizing that position, the Commanding General of the Thirty-second Japanese Army, General _____________ was able to- -he saw that we could then envelope his rear and he began his withdrawal to the Southern part of the island, which he managed to under cover of darkness and a big rainstorm. So in that way when we captured that line, but still fighting went on in the Southern half- -quarter of the island and several positions which had been Japanese prepared for advance. The crossing of Yokuba estuary was a very difficult operation. We had to throw a footbridge across and made a shore-to-shore amphibious landing. And one interesting thing – I had two regiments that were- -made this crossing from- -across the _________ estuary by sea and came around and the other one had gotten around to the other side and I sat on a hillside on one side of this estuary and a mile away I could see all three regiments attacking towards me where the- -this naval station in Naha was finally overcome. It was a very unusual experience to have your own troops attacking towards you. So, anyhow, we finally wiped up on, on the Japanese and right on down- -we took the Southern tip of the peninsula. And an interesting fact, Col. Woodhouse had brought with him ashore a ‘merican flag so when his battalion reached the Northern tip of Okinawa as it happened to do and he raised this flag on the Northern tip. Well, he carried his flag with him until he was killed and then one of his officers continued to carry it until the Southern tip. So when we were approaching the Southern tip of the island the Twenty-second was making the attack so I arranged for the Second Battalion, same battalion that had raised the flag on the Northern tip to raise it on the Southern tip, which was done. The flag I think now is up at VMI. But it was a … it was a hard-fought campaign. Eighty-nine days, we lost a great many men there, sadly to say. But you can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs.
Sweeney: What about the Japanese- -I read in one book that said that it wasn’t so much their seeking glory in their kamikaze tactics as it was that they were afraid of what the Americans would do to them if they captured them. I wondered what your impression was of the, of the Japanese tactics.
Shepherd: Well, the Japanese were courageous fighters, there’s no question about it. They, if they were told to die for the Emperor, they died for the Emperor. And they fought tenaciously in doing so. They are very obedient to their orders, and they- -I don’t think they thought too clearly. The main thing was- -of course their whole foundation of their religion is if they die fighting for the Emperor they’ll go to heaven, or to their heaven wherever that may be. So they, they were good fighters and they, they fought. And the kamikazes, yes, we were- -the Navy were losing ships right and left, were damaging ships with these kamikaze fliers. They were assigned this mission, they were given single-seater planes and their mission was to die for the Emperor, and they went out with a bomb and they zoomed down on top of a ship and crashed their plane on top of the ship. Well there were some heavy losses in the Navy. And the Navy had … they had a outpost ships circling the fleet there. There were _________ hundreds of ships there and off Okinawa you can imagine with the Tenth Army there fighting how much transportation and transports and all there were in the harbor. So they find- -they organized a circular defense and the warning- -warning – I was at a warning strip – and they in turn- -they … they’d bring as much artillery fire, I mean anti-aircraft fire as they could to bear as possible and of course the carriers there when they alerted to a Japanese … approach of Japanese planes they’d take the _________ the air. But they still were able to break through and then they’d crash down on a ship and it was a very serious thing when they did. We picked up several of ‘em that had flown in there and landed on Okinawa. But it was a bloody battle, there’s no question about it. The Japanese were courageous. They fought tenaciously, not always with intelligence but still … Interesting thing, after the- -after the battle the Division went back to Guam … and it was while we were there that- -while the Divison was there that the Japanese capitulated. Admiral Halsey, Naval Commander, requested General ____________________ to send a regiment to accompany the fleet for a landing in Tokyo Bay. Now the army, they were sending in some paratroopers in the Southern part of Japan, but Halsey said he wanted some Marines with him when he ma- - went into Tokyo, or to his landing at Yokosuka. So naturally I sent the reconstructed Fourth Marines, because the former Fourth had been lost on Corregidor at the beginning of the war and the reconstructed Fourth Marines that I’ve spoken earlier I’d been with in Japan, I’d been with in China. And then I placed in command of this task force or reinforced regiment Gen. Clement, a VMI friend of mine _______ assistant division commanding was very fine and he was one of the last officers off Corregidor, brought out the last records with him by submarine. So it was a very appropriate assignment, Fourth Marines under General Clement. So they landed at Yokosuka and when- -when Admiral Halsey fly in and it was a … fortunately there was no resistance. I mean the Japanese are very obedient. When he was told not to fight, why he didn’t, I mean he surrender- -he didn’t- -surrender. I remember how … that was later, yeah. I was talking about the surrender, then … I’m getting a little ahead of my story. Yes, I had gone out to be with the Fourth Marines when they had flown up from Guam to be there as soon as they had landed in Japan. Since they were part of my division I said I’ve got to inspect ‘em so I naturally flew up there and took advantage of the opportunity to visit Japan. I’d been fightin’ for it for three years and I wanted to see what the country was like. And ________ what I had in mind was I- -while I was there a Japanese Naval officer who occupy- -who had previously been occupying the headquarters that the Fourth Marines had at Yokosuka Navy Yard which we took over the Japanese Naval Headquarters. And he could speak English and so I said I’d like to make a trip around the island, just to see what the fortifications are like, ‘cause we- -that had been our next operation we were supposed to land in the Southern part of Kyushu the following spring. So this Japanese officer, very courteous, took me around. And he had been in command of the defenses of Tokyo Harbor so he very proudly showed me where his guns had been placed
and how he said now I can hit that- -if you had been over we could- -we would cover that part of the harbor and said you’d have had a hard time. Why there wasn’t any question about it we’d have never had to land in Japan we’d have had one hell of a battle. But anyhow so we went around the complete circle, but he was very friendly, he- -he—we had luncheon together and he says you know in discussing the war we should be very frankly, he said you Americans are always one step ahead of us. As fast as- -before we could get one island defended properly or organized for defense you’d seize it and then we’d try to do another one and you were always one step ahead of us. It was a very illuminating day I spent with him. I don’t know what his name was, he had, was a very intelligent fellow, and so that was a very pleasant day. But the Japanese ______________. Later on after I went back to Guam a month or so later the Division received orders to go to Tientsin, or go to Tsingtao to - this was after the war was over – and to go to Tsingtao. Well I having been in China, been through Tsingtao and Tientsin – the Corps headquarters were at Tientsin and the Division was sent to Tsingtao, which was a very fine town. There was an old German- -the Germans had taken the Shantung Peninsula with the Boxer- -after the Boxer troubles in 1900. And they had built this town of Tsingtao, the main part of the city along German lines. The houses were of the German type, the barracks were ________ Bismarck barracks and there was practically a modern town. Well I knew this and I was very pleased to- -that my Division was fortunate enough to be assigned there. And then I was directed to receive the surrender of the Japanese in the Shantung Peninsula.
Sweeney: General Sheperd was talking about taking the surrender of the Japanese at Tsingtao and the Shantung Peninsula, he is going to continue that story now.
Shepherd: Well, after having sent for the Japanese general – Eli Nagano was his name – who was in command of the Japanese forces in the Shantung Peninsula, I had my intelligence officer contact him and bring him in to- -so that I could go over with him the terms of the surrender. When he appeared at my desk he was a tall man and very fine looking Japanese, not the squatty squint-eyed type that you always sort of picture, he was a great big man he fought in Manchuria. He was a Samurai ___________ warrior. And as he stood in front of me I always remember his knees were shaking. And I was [chuckle] like a little boy whistling in the dark, I was glad he was … he was scareder [chuckle], he was scareder than I was, ‘cause I didn’t know just what was going to take place ______________ hell the Japanese didn’t have to surrender if they’d said no we don’t wanna- -we gon’ fight on, why we’d have been fighting another war over there for the next ten years in North China. Well he said yes the Emperor’s surrendered, and I will surrender my forces as you direct. So my chief of staff read over the terms of the surrender to his chief of staff and an interpreter, and he agreed to sign them. And we arranged for the signing of the documents officially, to be conducted a week or so later. And following MacArthur’s idea I said we’ll make a big ceremony, well Tsingtao had a big racecourse. And so I said we’ll do it on the racecourse, we’ll parade the whole Division and make a show of force. The communist Chinese were at that time pressing, closing in on us from all sides and the purpose was to show the communist troops the force that we had in the Sixth Marine Division, was reinforced 20,000 men and our planes we got out, the air squadron was close by _____________ just outside of town. So we arranged to make this a real big ceremony. So on the appointed day in November, he and his staff officers appeared, stood out in front where I had lined up the entire Division in close formation in front of us. And he came forward- -well he was, yes, he came forward and he signed the surrender documents. I signed the surrender documents. And we had a Chinese general there just as a matter of form, as a matter of fact, who also signed the documents in the name of Chiang Kaishek. And an interesting thing, in this surrender document the word I had received from my corps commander from Chiang Kaishek said that upon the surrender of the Japanese to you they will continue to fight the communists. Well I called the Division corps commander and I said how can you make the Japanese fight the communists, I said in my WWI experience, as the French used to say, la guerre est finie. When you surrender ______ the war is over. But he said no, Akimo(?) wants them to fight, so I said all right, so he agreed to fight. So finally the ceremony was- -he signed the treaty, I signed the treaty. Very formally, I had a pen for each of us, and so forth. And then I paraded the Division, which lasted several hours, and the air force came over. It was really a force- -demonstration of force, which I think impressed the Japanese people. We’d invited all the Navy ships in the harbor, the principle civilian ambassadors and so forth in the area. And it was a good show, a beautiful afternoon. But the next day- -interesting thing was the next day the chief of staff of General Nagano reported to me for instructions. And I said well, if that’s the way it’s going to be, if he’s going to fight [chuckle], I mean if he’s going to fight I’m going to put him out there, if he’s going to be in a fight he’s going to kill the Japanese not my Marines. So I said all right we’ll give you the outer defenses of Tsingtao and we’ll take the inner defenses of Tsingtao. And we assigned the positions and gave them ammunition and let them keep their swords and- - that was a mark of an officer. And I took the ar- -I didn’t give them any artillery, I was a little apprehensive at that time whether artillery was something I couldn’t let ‘em keep the ___ machine guns, and they fought several battles out in the perimeter, the outside perimeter of Tsingtao, fighting off the Chinese communists. The interesting thing in the surrender, the Japanese Nagano, Eli Nagano was his name, when he- -when he s- - I told him I expected him to surrender his sword to me – well, when he did so he wrote me a letter. Said, “This sword has been in my family for 350 years, it’s a Samurai sword, has always been borne with honor and virtue ________ I hope you won’t throw it away.” Well, I was so touched by this sentimental thing, you know the Samurai warrior, and I wanted to return it to him, the staff said oh no don’t do that _______________ this would be a sign of weakness. Well, so I kept the sword and it’s now in a museum in Washington, but I did some years later when I was CGFMFPAC after the war I communicated with General Nagano through- -I obtained his address from General Willoughby who was in Tokyo, and said I’d like to return your sword. You’ve prized it highly and always kept it with respect, and he sent back word: “I cannot accept it back. That sword was surrendered to you as my conqueror and I cannot accept it back.” That’s a peculiar sort of a situation, isn’t it?
Sweeney: Hm-m.
Shepherd: Well, to follow through on that, when I left- -when I left Tsingtao I was ordered home the first of January, 1946. I had been out three years and the Briga- -the Division was being reduced in size to Brigade, and General Vandergrift said you better come on home. And I was living in great style in Tsingtao. We took over the billet the Nazis had had there [chuckle]- -
Sweeney: Mm.
Shepherd: - -and it was a nice stone house, we had a good Chinese staff. It was a very pleasant life there. Well, anyhow. I wanted to get home, but … the … oh, yeah, before I … before I left General Nagano … wanted to come to see me, so I arranged for him to have tea there one afternoon. He brought me in two very fine swords. He said, “These swords”- -we were having to return ‘em, __________ we were returning the Japanese troops and Japanese civilians to China – I mean to Japan – from Tsingtao - every week an LSD would take a load of ‘em over there, so we were evacuating, and I called- -I had previously sent for him, and I said now I’m leaving here on the first of January, and I said you surrendered to me and I respect your authority and I will depend on you to see that the Japanese soldiers are all evacuated from the Shantung Peninsula and the civilians without any disorder. Well, he, he _________ and he saluted and said he would. He gave me this couple of very priceless swords, one of ‘em 700 years old, as a present. Then after I had been in the States for six to nine months I received a letter from him, and he said, “General, through the mists of the Losham(?) Mountains I still see your face and remember your directions to me that you held me responsible for the evacuation of all the Japanese soldiers in the Shantung area together with the civilians. I want you to know, I leave within the hour, I board the last transport within the hour to return to my homeland, but I want you to know before I leave that I’ve obeyed your orders and the last Japanese soldier is leaving Tsingtao.” Now, isn’t that a … say what you want about the Japs, but they’re a sentimental people- -
Sweeney: Mm.
Shepherd: --all right, I mean, that’s a, to me, a very touching story. Well, anyhow, then later on, so with that I wanted to return the sword to him, and as I said, later on he said, “No, I can’t take it back.” But, a very interesting thing - ____________ - I have a friend named Norman Wilcox who served with me, he’s a sort of public relations officer, I think, in the- -in a bank, in the what do you call it the National, used to be the Bank of Commerce, Virginia National- -
Sweeney: Virginia National Bank.
Shepherd: Virginia National Bank. So he wrote me several years ago, he said, a most unusual thing, I was arranging a luncheon, we were trying to establish a banking connection between Virginia National Bank and a bank in Kobe, Japan. And he said we had invited the Japanese bankers to come to Norfolk and there was connection between the two cities, Kobe and Norfolk. He said at the luncheon I noticed that making- -arranging the place cards that one of the bankers was named Nagano. So in the course of the luncheon he said, “Mr. Nagano, did you ever have any relatives in the Army?” And he said, “Yes, I did.” He said, “My father was a Major General in the Japanese Army.” And Norman said, “Well, I think he surrendered to my general, General Shepherd.” He said, “Yes indeed.” He said, “My father always speaks with the highest respect for General Shepherd, and he treated him as a- -with Christianity and with esteem” – I mean I didn’t, you know the Japanese thought you were going to cut their heads off!
Sweeney: Yes, that’s what I heard.
Shepherd: Yeah, that’s right, and then I treated him as a surrendered general, always with courtesy, gave him troops, gave him food and all that sort of thing. Well, anyhow, I was very touched by it, and it was after that that I wrote and tried to return his sword and the general said he wouldn’t take it. But it’s quite a coincidence he should be here. His son should be here at this bank right here in the city of Norfolk and one of my officers in the Sixth Division should remember the name and be- -and bring my name into the conversation.
Sweeney: Hm. … In late 1946, you issued a report on the amphibious operations in the atomic age. The report was to General Geiger, and you stressed the need to develop carrier-based helicopters to conduct ship to shore movement. How was this report received? Did people think that it was premature, or did they think that helicopters wouldn’t work?
Shepherd: Well, it just so- -I was assistant to the Commandant of the Marine Corps in ’46. And one day General Vandergrift the Commandant came back and I was in the office chatting with him, and he said you know Secretary of Defense Forrestal asked me a question that I’m not sure that I knew the answer to. He said Forrestal had asked him, he said now with the atomic bomb developed and used at Hiroshima, what would the Marine Corps do if they had a landing to make on- -in Japan and the Japanese had the bomb and if they dropped that bomb on top of your fleet of transports and ships he would have destroyed three/fourths of ‘em. It happened that Forrestal had been out to Iwo Jima during the battle there and saw the tremendous concentration of transports, destroyers, battleships and all the great mass of navy vessels that were gathered in a comparatively small area where the troops are being landed and there were naval gunfire from the battleships and the cruisers were providing air coverage for the- -anti-aircraft fire for the …the … So, I said, well, General that’s really a big question. I said I’ll ‘point a- -I’ll get the best officers, the best Marines in the Marine Corps, and I’ll ‘point a board and we’ll see what we can come up with. Well, we had two or three officers, imaginative officers with lots of brains, and I talked to them – I was a senior member of the board – and we talked about what we could do to disperse the- -disperse the ships. In that way one bomb would only hit a limited number of ships. Well, after several meetings when we- -I was presiding, and General Twiny who was a brother to Nate Twiny who was a head of- -later became Chief of Staff of the Air Force, and Merrill Twiny said, General, he said, you know these helicopters, I’ve been reading about helicopters lately and I think that’s the answer to our problem. Of course, helicopters at that stage were in their infancy -only one or two men and they were just sort of _________ he said if we can get a helicopter, if the fleet- -if the transports are dispersed at extended distances between them, and if we use the helicopters to transport instead of the boats to transport ‘em from the transports to the shore we can get ‘em all and they can be spread out over a distance of fifty miles and still all get into the landing beach at the same time. And I said, now, I said, Merrill you’ve really got something there and I think that’s the thing that the answer to the question. And from that one thought of Twiny’s we went to work on the development of the helicopter, and we got Sikorsky interested. And of course in those days the helicopters first only carried two and then they got ‘em up to eight, we’ll say, and then we were trying, the last time I was actually affiliated with this project, I think we had ‘em up to sixteen men and carrying a jeep and that sort of thing. But from then there’s been continued development and now that is a very important part of the tactics, the overhead attack of helicopters coming in. And actually they were first used in battle, as I recall, in Korea. And the big argument has always been well, the enemy will shoot ‘em down and so forth, but we lost comparatively few helicopters by being shot down. It was hard to hit ‘em and if you did hit ‘em unless you hit a vital part of the engine they withstood the occasional bullets. And they were used extensively in Korea and very effectively, not just for landing troops and that time we could land about- -well the first time I saw ‘em used was Southern part of the Korean Peninsula and I was over there visiting General Craig, and late one evening I saw this helicopter flying around from hilltop to hilltop. I said, what’s he doing. He said, well he’s posting the outpost for the night. In other words, instead of having to spend three hours climbing up on top of that mound and posting an outpost to guard the camp where the regiment- -the brigade is camped, why they just hop from one hill to another with these helicopters posting relief ____________________ and later on we used ‘em for other things. And now of course they’re used extensively by the Marines in their what they call their overhead development. So that- -that really was a beginning and I claim no … all I did was recognize a good thought and told the boss to go to work on it [chuckle].
Sweeney: Now we can go to the Korean War, in1950 … On July the fourth, 1950, you departed Honolulu to have a conference in Tokyo with General MacArthur and in that conference he expressed the desire for the First Marine Division to land behind the enemy lines and he outlined to you his plan for the invasion at Inch’on. I know a lot of the professional military people were very skeptical of this plan. How did you personally react to it – did you think that he could pull it off?
Shepherd: Well, frankly, it was a very hazardous operation. I can’t say that I was enthusiastic about it, frankly, nor was- -nor were other officers on my staff. And they were so concerned that when General Collins came out as Chief of Staff of the Army from Washington, and Admiral Radford, I think, was out and whoever the other senior officers that came out at that time – they were all very lukewarm and wondered about the difficulties that … to be experienced. We had in mind, in defense of our concern, those of us who had been in the Pacific had in mind the fighting capabilities of the Japs on Iwo Jima, on Guam and other places where we had attacked them and they fought tenaciously at the water line and later on. And we were not privy to the amount of information apparently MacArthur had nor the assurance he had with his … his seniority and his more experience, that ________ that he felt confident that we could without great difficulty and great loss of life could overcome the North Koreans. Well, those of us who temporarily weren’t enthusiastic at the moment about it, we wanted … we wanted to land down and we were all for the operation but the point was not to land right in the center of the town of Inchon and- -which was a fortified city, and a very difficult one to take. We were more for landing a little further down the coast where we’d have a little more opera- -opportunity to establish a beachhead and get our supplies ashore and all that sort of thing. But MacArthur pursued it and even in the face of criticis- -of conferences and discouragement by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, why he said yes I can do it, and we’ll do it. First Division is capable of doing it so, sure enough, that’s where we landed and it turned out all right. He just had better foresight than the rest of us did. But the- -it was a miraculous- -turned out miraculously. We were able to capture the island of Wombado(?). And then we went on and landed further South of the city, and about ten miles to the South down the river, and attack- -the Marines and Army troops which followed us in landing attacked Northward towards Inch’on, and after saving Inch’on we went up and .. further up to the Han River and first we captured the airport and hit the airfield and then up to- -up to Suwon and in order to get to Suwon we had to cross a river well to the North because the bridge had been destroyed between Yongdungpo and Suwon and we had to go some ten, fifteen miles down the Han River, make a night landing and make a night crossing with pontoons to the other side and fight our way back and attack Suwon from the- -from the North and it took quite a battle before we were able to succeed what we did and General MacArthur was able to receive Syngman Rhee and reestablish his Southern … his Southern Kor- -South Korea. And the individuals who had had to leave their homes were able to return. He did a great job on that – I have great admiration for General MacArthur’s foresight, his individual concept, which incidentally could not have been carried out without the help of the Navy and Marines.
Sweeney: Hm-m. … I read that the Marines were unhappy because he chose General Almond to be Commander and not you at Inch’on. Was there much feeling on that or, did he want to have … was he afraid to have a Marine officer in command of Army troops?
Shepherd: I don’t think it was so much that. I naturally would have, since I had sort of made it possible for General MacArthur to make this landing when I … when I interviewed him first and offered the First- -the use of the First Marine Division and First Marine Airway, why naturally I was- -would have liked to commanded this- -commanded them when they made the initial landing. And several days later I … I said, “Well, General, I’d like to command these troops.” I was their corps commander in a way, I was three stars at the time. General Smith was perfectly capable of commanding the Division but to be the corps commander of the- -when they formed the Tenth Corps, he said, “Well, Lem, I’d like to give it to you but I promised it to my chief of staff, General Ned Almond. He has been the- -he’s been my chief of staff and I’ve already promised it to him but I’d like for you to come as my amphibious advisor on my staff.” Well, naturally, I was disappointed, but still that’s the way the chips fell and nothing I could do about it.
Sweeney: Do you feel that he pursued a reckless strategy in going as far North as he did? Of course he had the dabacle at the Chosin Reservoir and the retreat and I read that General Polar wrote to his wife that the- -some of the high command or higher command wasn’t … hadn’t prepared them for what they encountered. So I was wondering if you felt that he had been precipitate in going so far North.
Shepherd: Well, that’ll be always a moot question. The … after success attained at Inch’on, followed by the capture of Suwon, the Tenth Corps commanded by General Almond advanced along the East coast of Korea. General Walker who commanded the Eighth Army on the West coast also advanced- -began the advance North, the purpose being to clear South Korea of- -South Korean territory of the North Koreans. As you may recall, the 38th parallel, I think it was, crossed … divided Korea into two parts. North Korea and South Korea. ‘Course that was one of the, in my opinion, one of the poorest moves that ever made, when after World War I some State Department fellow drew a line across Korea and said it would be North and South Korea. It should have been all made one and could have done it then, but that’s be that as it may. The … well, when we arrived and the troops arrived at the 38th parallel they were held up there for a period of several weeks, I think it was, because the United Nations – the constitution, the concept of the United Nations was that aid would be given to countries overrun by an aggressor. Well, we had expelled the aggressor from South Korea, but could the nation that had been under aggression, could they advance into North Korea without violating the constitution of the United Nations? Well, it’s a moot question, you see. Well, they should have stopped at the border. Well, that’s what the initial feeling was. But I think the pressure of MacArthur, they had them on the run, and said well let’s get up there and clean ‘em up while we’re about it. Rightly or wrongly, after a period of several weeks’ delay there, they finally agreed to let MacArthur proceed Northward. Because at that time the North Koreans were retreating in disorder, and MacArthur always claimed that if he had been permitted, if he hadn’t been held up for several weeks there at the 38th parallel, if he had been able to pursue rapidly as you should – they were on the run, keep pressing ‘em – he would have overcome the North Koreans before … without a great difficulty. But since- -when authority was given him to … to advance into North Korea then he conceived, or his staff originated the idea of bringing the Marines around by transport from Seoul to … to land ‘em at Hamhung which was well into the Northern part. In other words to pull another Inch’on, to land at- -in Hamhung which was well to the North of North Korea, which they did. Well they met with very little resistance there and then they started to advance Northward under General Almond to the- -towards the last defending … the last defenders were- -of North Koreans were retreating Northward. Well that’s a question, that’s a moot question, whether they should have gone that far up or not. It was- -winter was coming and it looked like a good move at the time, not, I personally was not in on it, had nothing to do with it except I knew that it was being conducted and whether I would have gone along with it or not I can’t say. But it looked all right, we were winning and it was just a matter of pushing ‘em North and just overcoming ’em. Well they got up there on the Reservoir and then the winter set in, and that was when the trouble began. And there was no, I can assure you that there was no intention of crossing the Yellow River. Although the Chinese, the North Chinese when they- -that was the excuse they had gave for getting into the war, that the Tenth Corps was going to invade China, Communist China. Well I can assure you that was never considered on any case. They did get up to the Yellow- -they got up and … to the Yellow River, but they just sort of touched base up there and that was all. But the, by that time the Chinese forces had been drawn into the conflict and they- -the snows had come, and there was some bitter fighting up on the Reservoir. I went up there myself on the last part of the operation when they began to withdraw and I went out, and I used to go out every twice a month from Honolulu to Korea to check on a number of things that I had under my control and supply that we supply and replacement- -replacements of personnel. And other commands, although the troops were under command of General Smith, nevertheless the logistic was a big item. It had to keep this thing the machine running with, which was under my control. And the- -so I was up there this last day and, matter of fact I intended to march down the hill with ‘em from up the Reservoir, but General Smith said he preferred I wouldn’t and naturally I didn’t impose on his prerogative. So I did fly out of there on the last plane we brought out the wounded- -last wounded from the Reservoir that evening, and Maggie Higgins(?) happened to be aboard the plane. So we, so that’s when they withdrew from North Korea. It was unfortunate that after the great success MacArthur had attained at Inch’on and in the … and in the conqu- -in conquering South Korea that his star was dimmed by this unfortunate advance to the North. And the … just was one of those that travesty occurred that way.
Sweeney: How did you feel about President Truman’s removal of General MacArthur in 1951?
Shepherd: Well I rather not express opinion on that [chuckle]. They- -I do know this, now, I think that General- -that President Truman had certainly made- -given General MacArthur his full support, or his support to the best he could. But I think that General MacArthur was not too enthusiastic about General or President Truman, I think it was a conflict of personalities and I think it came to an impasse where … where they- -something had to give, frankly.
Sweeney: Off the record- -
Sweeney: In 1952 you became the Commandant of the Marine Corps. You served three years in that capacity. Four years? I understand you took action to reorganize the … let’s see, reorganize the Headquarters of the Marine Corps, was it?
Shepherd: That was general staff system.
Sweeney: Hm-m. Could you talk about that?
Shepherd: When I became Commandant, I- -having served as Assistant Commandant, I was fairly familiar with the operations of the organization, which had grown from a small corps in the early days when I joined it of some fifteen-eighteen thousand men to over five hundred thousand during World War II. And so much of the administrative … administration of the Marine Corps had not changed, had not progressed as rapidly as the increase of the strength. And one of the matters of discussion that had gone on for a considerable period of time was establishing what is called a general staff system at Headquarters. Instead of having each sort of department we had a plans and policies department which would make plans and had a personnel which handled personnel and then we had Quartermaster General who was sort of supreme in all paid and quartermaster supply activities, why … public relations and so forth. So the idea was to bring ‘em into a coord- -under the- -each under a director. The Chief of Staff would, would, would run his staff which consists of: number one, personnel; number two, intelligence; three, operations; and four, supply, of which the quartermaster would become a part. And of course there was the other … communication and various other smaller units. And so I … I seized the opportunity of becoming Commandant to establish this, this more modern and effective way of handling- -the way you run a Division, the way you run every organization, but things at Headquarters were hard to change and previous Commandants hadn’t wanted to bother with changing. They said, “Oh, yes, we need to change, but I just don’t feel like struggling with it.” And so I did establish the general staff system at Headquarters which has proved effective over the recent years.
Sweeney: After you retired you were recalled to active duty to Chairman of the Inter-American Defense Board. Could you tell me what that was.
Shepherd: Well, the Inter-American Defense Board is an organization similar to what NATO is to the- -to troops- -to the united forces in Europe. And the Organization of American States is an organization that was formed many years ago … _______ sort of a part of the Pan-American Union, the idea was to promote … promote friendship among the South American countries. And the Inter-American Defense Board was organized during World War II in order to bring into closer contact and closer liaison with those countries and the military parts of those countries, so that they wouldn’t become- -so the Nazis wouldn’t seize _______. Always we were afraid the Nazis would establish bases in Northern- -Northeastern part of Brazil and in a number of those states along there with the expansion of Nazi power that they would would become- -because there were naturally lots of Germans in those countries it would likes to have seized ‘em and made the world completely Nazi. So there was quite a bit of activity during WWII and bringing the senior officers of those countries together and to form this Inter-American Defense Board. So when it came to my time to retire I learned that the turn … the Navy’s turn, so to speak – it alternated between the Navy, the Army and the Air Force – and it came up in discussion at Joint Chiefs one day, well who would be the next Chairman, it was the Navy’s turn on the Inter-American Defense Board. So after the meeting was over I went to Admiral Burke, I said, “If you haven’t any appointee selected for that job, I’d like to submit my name.” And he said, “Well, that would be fine, I think it would be very appropriate for you as a Marine to have that job.” And so which I was appointed as Chairman of this board, which was composed of senior officers Naval, Air Force and Army of the various twenty-one American republics. Now, that did not include Canada. But it did include the United States and there were twenty-one American republics. That was before Cuba defected. And I spent four years on that job, and it was extremely interesting and I think I accomplished quite a bit by standardize the type of weapons used, establishing the- -one of the principle things, we established an Inter-American Defense College in Washington which brought up officers from those countries. And they- -we taught them how to run things in a so-called democratic manner and in the proper … proper manner. And I visited each of those countries on various occasions and had many friends down there. And it was a very, to me, a very rewarding job because I was able to travel through those countries and meet the top people, and made many friends there with whom I still correspond. And I think that as a whole the Board accomplished to a degree the objectives for which it had been organized.
Sweeney: One final question. The military establishment came upon some rather bad days in the 1960’s and the war in Viet Nam. I was wondering, now in the 1970’s with Viet Nam fading into the period just behind us, whether you feel that the military is held in greater esteem and whether it is … has a greater esprit de corps today than, say, ten years ago.
Shepherd: Well, that’s a difficult question in a way. When I retired in 1960 from the … military service and moved out of the Washington circles of- -inner circles of … military and social life, why I … I naturally … my interest in … the activities of the armed services and of what went on in Washington began to diminish to a degree. And then subsequently after twelve years I lived in Washington I kept up fairly well in Northern Virginia, and I moved to the West Coast some ten years ago and the farther I got away from Washington the happier I was I wasn’t any closer to it. But on the other hand, I have kept in touch with the various Commandants of the Marine Corps, especially General Wilson whom I’ve previously mentioned as being a very close personal friend of mine. But … and he has kept me informed to a degree on what’s going on and I think that Marine Corps is- -had been rejuvenated under his administration, he is such a fine officer. We are progressively coming back to the high standards of esprit that we had before the war. And I think that, and I’m sure the other services are in like _________ I sort of wonder some times with- -under the present administration and how- -how much support we’ll receive from President Carter. But that remains to be seen. And I … personally do not try to in any way get involved in military or political activities. I don’t believe in kibbitzin’ over somebody ______________. The man is running the job, he’s got to run it as sees fit. If he asks my advice, why I’ll be glad to give it to him as has happened on several occasions, but I in no way interfere with what’s going on. But to answer your specific question I do think that the Marine Corps itself is in excellent shape. I know it to be in excellent shape today. Fine young officers, fine young men. And I think we’re well … we have our ups and downs and of course all the press always like to take a crack when anything goes wrong, I tell you they blow it up you know. But as a whole, we chug along, we’ve lived through these crises before and I think ______________ just some young reporter wants to get a story and he’ll take a rumor that some enlisted man may have given him and he’ll blow it up and it’ll be in the papers. But we survive, we seem to survive. I went through several experiences of that nature. But I think the- -I know that the Marines Corps is in fine shape, a healthy corps with great esprit and an outstanding group of officers and enlisted men. And I’m sure the other services are probably are also.
Sweeney: Thank you very much for this very informative interview, General Shepherd.
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After this interview, General Shepherd stressed that there was one point that he wished to add in regard to amphibious warfare doctrine. He said that he served as Assistant Commandant of Marine Corps Schools from 1939 to 1942 and at that time they employed the various tactics in amphibious warfare on a training basis which were used later in the Pacific. He mentioned going down to Colabra in Latin America and being involved in maneuvers down there. So … what they had put into prac- -what they were trained to do in 1939-1940 they put into practice in 1943 and 1944. General Shepherd also stated, off the record, that he believed that President Truman was justified in the action that he took against General MacArthur in 1951. He recalled an instance of discussing Truman with MacArthur in Korea, in which MacArthur had received a communication from the President and said, “Look what that haberdasher has sent me. Look at that haberdasher.” And Shepherd responded that he really ought not to refer to the President, the Commander-of-Chie- -Commander-in-Chief in that way. But he said the two men had an obvious personality clash and, given the circumstances in the spring of 1951, President Truman had no choice but to take the action which he did. Another point that General Shepherd made was that the optimum strength for the Marine Corps is between 193,000 and 205,000 men, and that the Corps strength today is 193,000 so he does not see that as a major problem. And in addition … one final point: General Shepherd spoke at some length about his parents, Lemuel Cornick(?) III his father and his mother. Or rather his father was Lemuel Cornick I and his mother Virginia Tunstall Driver who had lived in Princess Anne County and the family’s roots are deep in Princess Anne County going back to the early 18th century. |
