1. Could you talk a bit about your background and education?

I was born in Hartford, Connecticut, but I basically grew up here. We moved here when I was either in the first or second grade. But I'm always fond of saying, You know how you can define a Norfolk native-that's anybody that's lived here for more than two years. But I went to Granby High School. I studied political science at ODU. I got a B. A. I then went to UVA law school and graduated from there in 1976. I continued to serve on the Board of Visitors during that period. In fact I had the pleasure of serving on the board for eleven years.

2. What years did you attend Old Dominion and what was the campus like at that time? Was being on the board at such a young age a good experience for you?

I attended as a student from 1969 until 1973-the era of activism. I was very active. I think students were more active then. I think there was a much higher percentage of student involvement in school activities then as compared to now. We're just going through a phase I think. The next generation will probably be different. I didn't participate in any of the campus protests, although we did have some on campus, I remember. It's interesting. Actually, my first year, there was one march to save the university. There was a tremendous funding problem that year. I think we all participated in that.

I served as a student representative to the Board of Visitors. Old Dominion was one of the first colleges to have student representatives-non-voting student representatives-sit on the board. But later I was appointed to the board as a regular member by then Governor Holton, prior to my senior year. I was on the board for my senior year when I was also student body president. It was a great experience. Everyone was quite gracious, although I'm sure there probably were some who were quite surprised by that development. It was probably harder for them than it was for me. I never felt anything but welcome. I had the advantage of having already worked with everyone on the board as a student representative for a year, so I didn't come into a situation where I was entirely new.

The campus was of course smaller then. We were in the process of finishing the Kaufman Mall, which was a result of the generous donation of George and Linda Kaufman. And they found everything but the kitchen sink underneath that mall when they were trying to build it. But that was quite a development. It really changed the face of the campus substantially. The Arts and Letters building was built I think during the time I was a student, as was the Education Building. The Health and Physical Education Building I think opened in 1970. So the face of the campus changed substantially. Jim Bugg was president. I thought he was an excellent president. He was a real agent for change. You know, there comes a time when, in the evolution of an institution like a university, a new style becomes necessary. And someone who was absolutely the right person to lead the university might no longer be the best person, and I think you go through those evolutionary stages.

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But I thought Jim Bugg was an excellent president at the time. I very much enjoyed working with him. The university's governance was quite-I can't say unique; I think there were other universities that did it-but I think quite different than it probably is today in that the university had a University Senate that was composed of faculty, administrators and students. And the student body president was the chairman of the Student Caucus and the faculty had a chairman of the Faculty Caucus. And there was an awful lot of change that resulted from actions in the university senate, not all of which were appreciated by some on the faculty. And in hindsight, I'm sure they've made changes since then where you go from one end of the spectrum to the other and back towards the middle. But there was a tremendous amount of change in the requirements for courses, making it much more flexible in terms of how you met your requirements. You had more choice. It probably went, as most things do, it probably went too far in the other direction, then started coming back towards the middle. But there were a lot of interesting discussions in many respects, rather interesting politics. Because many times the student component of the University Senate and the administration component and a small portion of the faculty were on the winning side. And a large portion of the faculty were on the losing side, on curriculum reform And I think that helped lead to-I can't tell you when that occurred, but I know after I left, they did away with the University Senate and went back to a more traditional Faculty Senate and a Student Senate approach. And probably the experience of the faculty during that time was part of the reason for doing that. I think the faculty thought that they should've had more say. Probably the students had too much say during that time frame. And we knew how to play the political game pretty well.

3. Did the community view Old Dominion as a something of a second love during this time, compared to other, better established institutions? Were you aware of that sentiment?

I think Old Dominion played second fiddle then in terms of allegiances to the Virginia Techs, the William and Marys, the UVAs of the world. To some extent that was true. But that's typical. The other thing is, Old Dominion obviously had a fairly young alumni. It still is fairly young, but it was very young then, even though Old Dominion had been around as a division of William and Mary since the thirties. But it didn't become a separate college until the early sixties. So it didn't really start to develop it's own identity until that time. So when you thought about leaders in the community, it was natural-most of those leaders went to school somewhere else. In Virginia, that would've largely been Virginia Tech, William and Mary, UVA and certainly many other schools have come along in the interim. And as time has gone on now, we can call upon an awful lot of community leaders throughout Hampton Roads-and throughout Virginia for that matter-who are Old Dominion alumni.

4. Do you recall any of the projects the board was working on during your time terms? I believe you served on the Education Committee and the Student Affairs Committee.

My recollection is that the Student Affairs Committee had a number of discussions regarding the honor system, which we maintained at the time. I would say the biggest agent for change on the board was the Education Committee, because we were adding a number of new programs, and all of those new programs came through the Education Committee.

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Ted Everhart was chairman of that committee for several years-and ultimately became rector of the board-I think after Dot Doumar. And that was a real agent for change. There was a Buildings and Grounds Committee and a Finance Committee, and obviously the Finance Committee was important, but it wasn't as sexy as being on the Education Committee. And the Buildings and Grounds Committee was quite active because they were building a lot of things then, and they reviewed all the architectural plans for each of the buildings and kept up on the status of construction. I don't think I ever chaired the Education Committee. I know at one time I chaired the Student Affairs Committee. The Student Affairs Committee had regular sessions with the students at large, where the students at large were invited to come and say whatever they wanted to say or ask whatever questions they wanted to ask. It was fairly novel-I'm not saying other schools didn't do it, but most people don't volunteer to be in the hot seat. And in situations like that-it's true in city government or wherever you want to go-you generally don't hear from the people who are happy because they're out doing what makes them happy. You hear from people who have an issue or a concern, and that's why we had meetings like that.

At one point in time one of the big issues was the Shah of Iran wanted to put a naval training academy at Old Dominion. We debated it endlessly because they were willing to plop down an awful lot of money. I can't tell you all the reasons why we decided not to do it-I can't remember whether ultimately it just petered out because they didn't follow through. There was a lot of opposition to it on campus, particularly from the faculty, less so from the administration, because they looked at the ability to finance a lot of programs in the new building. The faculty worried about any potential for controlling the academic content of programs if you have a foreign government involved. So it was quite an issue during its time. In hindsight-boy, what a smart decision for whatever the reasons were that we didn't do it. Because the Shah of Iran was deposed shortly thereafter. One of those interesting sidelines. I think it was an academy to help train his naval officers, and he chose Norfolk because we're a Navy area. It would've been like an NROTC program, but at a higher level for the officers of the Iranian Navy.

5. What was it like going from Jim Bugg's administration to that of Al Rollins?

They had different styles. Rollins was the right person for that time frame. Things weren't moving at quite the fever pitch they were in the first few years that we were a university. I think the university needed someone who could massage the faculty and work to develop consensus, and he was very good at doing that. Jim Bugg was an excellent agent for change. People who are very good at being agents for change many times aren't the best people at developing consensus. My belief is-and some of this is just supposition on my part because I wasn't part of that search effort-I think they brought Bugg on knowing what they were going to get. They needed somebody who was going to bring Old Dominion from a small, community-oriented four-year college, to develop it into a true university, which to me means an institution with a number of graduate programs of recognized national excellence. And we didn't aspire to be all things to all people, and I think that was part of what we had to have people understand and accept. But we did try to be the best in selected areas of emphasis, such as oceanography.

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6. Was there any racial tension at Old Dominion during your time there as a student?

I would say in the sense that there was a much smaller percentage of minority students, particularly black students, at Old Dominion then as compared to now. And I think there was some tension between Old Dominion and Norfolk State. We played each other in basketball. It was a very intense rivalry. And I'm not trying to say that alone created tension, but I think there was certainly more tension between the two institutions then than now. I think that's largely disappeared. Both institutions have become much more multi-cultural, particularly Old Dominion. I don't think there was anywhere near the cooperation between the two institutions then as compared to now. That developed over a period of time. Lucy Wilson, Harrison Wilson's wife, has been at Old Dominion for a number of years. But I think that's when things started to improve dramatically-with Harrison Wilson coming on board as president of Norfolk State. It was like a new era there, and we had to work through another time of dealing with the issue of the Office of Civil Rights, when they came down and looked to see whether we had complied with the integration orders. And there were tensions associated with that. There were some gut reactions from a lot of people that we needed to go to war against the Office of Civil Rights because they were trying to tell us how to run the institutions in Virginia. It had nothing to do with not having full access for whites and blacks-that obviously had been guaranteed long before that. But it had to do with quotas, about how many. . . by x day you had to have x number of whites versus blacks, that sort of thing. And I give credit to Governor Dalton, who was governor at the time. I thought he handled that very well. He took a lot of that emotion out of it and handled it on a state-wide basis, and handled what could've been a very difficult situation. One of the alternatives could've been merging the two institutions, which would've caused a lot of grief.

7. As someone who has seen both sides-the insider, student perspective and now the professional perspective-what role do you feel Old Dominion plays in the community? How is it perceived in the community and how has it influenced Hampton Roads?

I think Old Dominion has an excellent reputation in the community. And it's reflective of a number of trends. One, there are a lot more Old Dominion graduates in the community. Number two, I think from an economic standpoint it's always had an impact on the area. I think it has a huge impact on the area now. Thirdly, I think there's a much higher visibility of the university throughout Hampton Roads as compared to a couple of decades ago-a much better realization of the role an urban university plays in helping to drive economic development throughout the region. Old Dominion now has classes at the center in Virginia Beach and at the Tri-cities Center. Old Dominion has always had-even as early the late 60s and early 70s-had a very close relationship with NASA. But obviously the university has a much higher profile on the peninsula now with the operation of the wind tunnel, and Wallops Island on the Eastern Shore. It's got a much higher profile now. I think it has a much higher profile state-wide, and I think Jim Koch gets a lot of that credit. He has really increased the profile of the university state-wide, added to the reputation of an excellent university.

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It's well-respected in the General Assembly, for example. It all takes time to develop-it's not like it happens all in one moment. But I think he's one of the more respected university leaders throughout Virginia, certainly as perceived by the General Assembly. From a sports standpoint. . . I don't want to slight any programs-there's an awful lot of programs there. But the men's and women's basketball teams-particularly of late, the women's team-have really put Old Dominion on the map and helped raise the profile of the university in the community. I think it's great. I've had season tickets to Old Dominion men's games since I was a student. But I go to an awful lot of women's games as well, and what has always struck me in the women's games is-look at all the families that go to those games from throughout Hampton Roads. And I've got to believe that an awful lot of those families aren't alumni, they're just people who live in Hampton Roads. And a lot of older people too. You tend to see a lot of families and a lot of older people. You tend to see the more typical, sports-oriented crowd at the men's games. It's interesting how they pull from different sectors of the community. From a cultural standpoint, I think Old Dominion has had an impact-the lecture series has been very popular. The Entrepreneurial Center has had a tremendous impact in creating new businesses throughout Hampton Roads. And I think if you went through each of the schools at the university, you'd find similar examples. To me, that's what helps make a university an urban institution. It's a two-way street. It's not just an institution that sits there-it's intimately involved in things that happen around it. And I think Old Dominion is.

8. The Health Center and most other facilities for students didn't develop until Al Rollins' term. What student services did exist when you attended Old Dominion?

We had Admiral Joe Yon on the Board of Visitors. He was a retired Navy admiral, medical corps, and one of his big objectives was to promote setting up a university health center. What services we did have back then were scattered to the four winds, so we went to this building for that, to another building for something else. And now they've been able to consolidate all that in the Webb Center, which for convenience purposes makes a lot of sense. But students did a lot then. We had very popular school dances in the Webb Center after every home basketball game on Saturday nights. Students didn't get in free to the games back then because there were no student fees to pay for athletics. So if you went to the game you got into the dance free, and I believe there was free beer. But it was a different time. The student caucus organized those dances, and an awful lot of people went to them. But that's an example of how times and attitudes have definitely changed. They increased the drinking age to 21. At one time, Old Dominion put in the Rathskeller in the Webb Center and then that ultimately closed-I think because of the 21 issue. It was a nice bar.

9. Did you know Harold Eickhoff, executive vice president under Jim Bugg?

I sure did. I had a great relationship with him. It's interesting. Everybody has a different view of how they're going to organize things, and I remember Al Rollins saying he was going to streamline things, that there were too many people in the president's office, too many administrators.

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He probably did at the beginning, but I think it's true of every president's administration in Washington, every governor or any chief executive of a university. I suspect you still end up with about the same number of administrators at the end, although you'll change a lot during the process. One of the positions that was done away with was executive vice president, eventually. But Harold Eickhoff had a lot to do with the day-to-day administration of the university-not so much on the academic side, but running the institution. So I had a lot of contact with him.

10. Are there any professors that stand out in your mind?

Professor Schaeffer in political science liked to chomp on big cigars. I have a twin brother who works downtown here as well-his name is Barry Bishop. And the reason I remember Professor Schaeffer is that my brother and I both had the same political science class, and we always had a system where one of us would go and the other one wouldn't. We didn't realize until later of course that it's money out the window. And we both showed up in class near the end of the semester, and Professor Schaeffer paused and stopped and looked at both of us, and said, "What happened? Did your system break down?" I think Tom Wells was in the political science department then. And Professor Stern. He used to take a group of students to Innsbruck to go skiing every year.

In fact, one year when I was student body president, my brother Barry was editor of the Mace and Crown. It was one of those rare cases when you're guaranteed good press. It was funny. He and Jim Bugg--and this was not a personal thing--but they went at it every now and then from a standpoint of disagreeing on politics. They didn't pull any punches on the editorial page of the paper! Barry and I were quite active Republicans in a sea of Democrats, speaking of the political science department. The Republicans back then were moderate compared to what they are today. But political science departments, generally speaking, and certainly at Old Dominion, were predominately Democratic and fairly liberal. So it made us quite well-known in the political science department.

11. What was it like going from Old Dominion to the University of Virginia?

Virginia was a much larger institution, so you lost some of that sense of community. Although the law school is almost set apart from the rest of the school. From a transition standpoint, academically, I never felt-you know, you're all the sudden in class with people who graduated from Harvard, and I never felt ill-equipped. Physically, it's a much larger institution than Old Dominion.