Q: This is James R. Sweeney, the university archivist of Old Dominion University in Norfolk Virginia. Today is August 1st, 1979 and I have the pleasure of interviewing Mrs. Bessie Charity, who joined the staff of the Norfolk division of the College of William and Mary in 1934 and served for many years on the college's support staff. I'm conducting this interview in Mrs. Charity's home on West 43rd Street in Norfolk Virginia.

Q: The first question I wanted to ask you was, if you could tell me how it was that you came to be employed at the Norfolk division of William and Mary back in 1933?

A: It was, I forget the lady's name that was workin' there, but I was workin', started workin' part time, then I got the full time job workin' there. So myself, Mr. Gibson ... I was workin' there under him in the old buildin', that's the oldest buildin' that they had there. So I was doing then cleanin' the buildin', helped cleanin' the buildin', the office and classrooms and things. So then we go down and help--Mr. Gibson had a little, it wasn'--they didn't have no place that for food stands, just had _____, and I helped with that. So that was what I was doin' in 1933 and started kep' on that path until they move over into the o'--build the other buildin'. And so they had, it looked about 200 students they say it were, wi' the girls and all. So then I was cleanin', started clean the office, library, and different parts of ___. Also helped in Bud's place, help him. Well he--we worked in there, at lunch time I would go and help him serve the food in there, the sandwich that's all they had and drinks. And we kept that up and the library. So later on, I mean after Bud died, well me and another one of the students we work--we kept that going until he got someone to work, Mr. Webb got somebody to take it over. But Bud was a very nice fellow and we, I would go there and do his laundry and different things so ---

Q: Did he live on the campus?

A: Yeah, he stayed there on the campus. _____ in a little room in there. And it was my duty every morning, when I got there that I would always go to knock on his door to wake him up before the students get in. He always said, wake me up, because he didn't want them, nobody know that he was livin' in there because he said sometime people might, you know, try to do somethin' to him. So I would be mostly the first one go in--in the building and we worked there un--kep' that going, I help work until they moved over in the other building. But my husband and I, the, like the head dancers and different things we would work nights there with, and basketball games, we'd always go there and check coats and we'd help serve the drinks for the basketball games and different things. So it was very pleasant time working there and I always clean the office and everything. But when Dean, ____ well, Dean Hodges was there, so he was a very nice fellow and I think everybody mostly loved him so we just went on and worked with him and myself and there was another fellow named Thomas, after my husband left in '42 and went to the base my-- Thomas ______ and me and him would always clean the office and we work classrooms and different things in there so we worked in there and everybody was ____. And then they would have a night gang come in that would clean the rooms, we just had to clean the office and go and dust the chairs in the morning so that was all we had to do then. So the college began to grow then, and after they build this other buildin' they moved over into this, and they had this cafeteria in there. And Mrs. -- what that lady name -- we, I worked down the stairs, I run the place down the stairs and she was upstairs, she let me run the snack bar. And I was in charge of doin' all the orderin' for that - potato chips, cookies, sandwiches and different things.

Q: They couldn't do any cooking there, could they?

A: Well when they moved into the other buildin' they did cooking.

Q: Oh they did?

A: See, the first buildin', now the administration buildin', the administration buildin', they didn't have no place there, but this other buildin' they move--build between, what is it, the science building I think it's called now, they had a snack bar, they had a snack bar downstairs, the book shop was on one side with just between the book shop and Mr.--what is his name, I forgot his name now cuz I talked with him the other day too.

Q: Mr. Eggers?

A: No, Mr. Eggers wasn't in the bookshop. This man was--Camelia? What was the name of the man who ran the bookshop? And so we--who was that I said that got married two weeks ago, two months ago that run the bookstore? Yeah, Mr. Carmen. Me and him worked in there, he worked on one side while I helped him too with the books sometime because if I wasn't busy on one side I would help him if he had to go out. But they had the cafeteria was upstairs over there.

Q: That was in the newer building?

A: That was in the newer building--that made, first was one building and then they moved over and they build this other administration building and they build a stadium and then they next build another building on the other side.

Q: Right, now they call that one the science building.

A: Science building. So that's where they had the cafeteria upstairs and the snack bar--the lunchroom downstairs so we had just like one more sandies, had barbecue sandwiches and hamburgers, hotdogs downstairs and they had the regular lunches upstairs. So we, I stayed down with them and I worked down there. Well when they moved over into this, when they build the cafeteria building, we were over, and we went over there.

Q: You mean the Webb Center, the place where they have the cafeteria now?

A: Yes, I worked in there. Well then I started to workin' on the cash register. And when I left I was workin' on the cash register, helpin' with the, I didn't work at the lunchroom I just worked on the cash register.

Q: When did you retire?

A: In 50, no '69.

Q: In '69?

A: But they ... at first I used to had to go when I was workin' over there, I would had to see that we had five cash registers and I had to go see that all the cash registers were set up in the mornin' and we would ... but I didn't have nothing to do with the lunch part just workin' on the cash register.

Q: What do you remember about Doc Gibson? What kind of man was he?

A: Mr. Gibson was a very nice man to work wi' and we worked together for a long time until he left there. And the students was very good, because I used to have more fun with them when there was a smaller college because I was able, you know you can, when it's smaller you can mingle with people and get closer to 'em.

Q: Right.

A: And so we would ... ____ and there was Thomas _____ and myself and I'd go into a locker room and talk to some of the girls, in the Girls' Locker Room. We would just joke and carry on till summer was there. They'd say, "I can't even wash my socks, I can't do ____." I'd say, Now, you talkin' about goin' to ____ school how you, you going to bring all your things back to your mother _______ that is somethin', I said why not try it, I said I tell you what you do, you go home and try see can't you wash out your blouse or wash out socks and see that and just learn that before you go 'way to school. And so one of the girls came back and said, "Bessie, you want to wash my blouse," and I said ah-hah I told you so, I said you could do it. I said don't put everything on your mother, I said because that wouldn't be right for you to go to William and Mary up there and stay for a whole week and come back and bring all those things back. So we just had fun with the girls and all. ________. And also their gym teacher that was I think her name Miss Holme.

Q: Mm-m, Margaret Holmes.

A: And we would just work there, we stay there, and I-- we had more fun and then not only that but the boys was very nice to me. Their _____ Club gave me a party one day in the ... a surprise birthday party in the gym--not in the gym but over there in the other buildin' and ... they was all real nice to me.

Q; Mm-m. We have a photograph of that.

A: Oh, yeah. I have--had some of the papers and everything but I just got rid of some of 'em, I can't, different things, and I was lookin' the other day and I saw it had the picture of Audrey Paul as I have there, course that was given to me. And I have different little photo of some of __________ they had different little things, basketball, and Mr. Thomas Scott, he was the football coach there.

Q: Oh, yeah.

A: And that was very nice. Everybody was just very nice.

Q: How long of working hours did you put in over there, when did you go and when did you get home?

A: Well, when I first started I would go over there in the morning and come back and go back in the afternoon and clean up.

Q: Oh, I see.

A: But after we ______ got on the regular job we would get off round about 2:30, I would just get off from 7 to ... well then we'd go in some mornings, had to get there kinda early, go down there round about 6:30 and open up because I would be the one that opened up the buildin' most after, there, and let 'em come through, so it was round eight hours a day when I was workin'.

Q: Mm-mm. What ... did the students seem to have a lot of affection for Audrey Paul ?

A: Oh, yeah, and they loved him, they really did. And they was, they really, back when he passed it was, I don't know, well it got to most all of us, cause the boy that, me and him worked in the bookshop together for a while, he told me, well some of 'em asked me did I want to go to the funeral and I told 'em I don't think I want--I wanted just to remember him as I last seen him.

Q: Mm-m.

A: So ... then one of the boys said "No, Bessie, I'm glad you didn't." But I don't know, I jus' … but they cut the photo out and give me and I still have that and remember him just as I, you know, saw him. But he was, really--a person like him I don't see why nobody couldn't, you know, and everybody was, just, seemed to be real nice to us. He didn't--I don't think he had any trouble with any of the students. Because they were really nice.

Q: What about the ... the faculty, did you have--did you get to know any members of the faculty?

A: Oh, I know most all the faculty, and I come in contact with them all and I just, well everybody seem to be real … nice. I did have no trouble with none of 'em.

Q: Mm-m. Do you have any interesting stories, or did anything stand out in your memory about some of these people, like Dr. Akers or Lewis Webb or Dean Hodges ?

A: Well, Dean Hodges, I thought that he was a real--he seemed to have a real interest in the students. And I do remember the time when they came down and wanted him to resign, you know, and all that. But, and everybody seemed to be so upset about that.

Q: Oh, yes.

A: And ... but not only him, Dr. Hodges, then there was next Dr. Graydon, so he was, everybody seemed to be _________ . So I don't think nobody had any trouble with--and everybody hated to see Dr. Ak--Hodges leave.

Q: Mm-m.

A: Because he was so and--he like he had so much interest in the students and was tryin' to help but sometime you try to do things and you get the worst end of it, well that's the way it was for him.

Q: True. What would you say were the major changes that you saw in the students over the years. There must have been big changes between the students you knew in the first few years and the ones you knew at the end of your time.

A: Well, it wasn't--well the people that I know the first few years I could say that there was the students, that they were all--well they were--I guess because there wasn't too many of 'em and they all together and it seemed like everybody got along and everybody was just so enthused over everybody, because whenever one leave or something like that--and I had one boy to leave and go to the Army, and then they got married and he wrote me a letter--and you know they would write and tell me how they gettin' along and things like that. And the students whenever they come back for a visit they would jus'--and I would hate to see 'em leave because after they ____________ started the basketball games and thing, it was like they had such a nice teams and everything, not only the boys but the girls I know some of the womens I used to just love to see and read about 'em, you know how they played ...

Q: Mm-m.

A: Games and things. So I would think they were jus'--but I don't think they are as close as they were then.

Q: Oh, no, no.

A: No ______.

Q: When it was real small.

A: Mm-m. There was a big difference. And, I don't know, Mr. Webb, Mr.--Dr. Akers and ... there was .... what the other man name ...

Q: McClelland?

A: Yeah, Mr. McClelland, and there's--everybody was just so nice and I tell you the truth, I don't know, I just hated to see and you know this, when Dr. McClelland left I just hated to see him leave - he was real nice. My husband used to think--go down sometime and do some work for him and he was jus'--and also when they started this--when Mr.-- this last basketball coach quit, went away.

Q: Sonny Allen?

A: Sonny Allen. They were really, him and his wife, all the family, they were so nice. They was really nice. "Course he pulled out, he really did have a nice game ... with basketball. And I was sorry when they had--when the stopped the football games. But they said the college was too small and they didn't have--but Mr.Scott used to have real nice little football games there _______. They were down--they didn't have no place--they were down in the basement or something like a locker room, that's where they had to go and dress and _________. They went out in Larchmont Field and then they would have nice little games and thing.

Q: Some of the people that worked with you, do you--do you remember a man they called "Preacher"?

A: Oh, yeah.

Q: What do y--what--what is his name?

A: We called him Preacher so much.

Q: Yeah, I couldn--I--but, you worked with him, or he used to take care of the old social studies building.

A: Mm-m. ... Yeah, Thomas ___ work there a long time ...

Q: Did you actually manage Bud's Emporium after Audrey Paul died?

A: Well, me and another one of the students, we kept it going until Mr. Dudley got someone to go and--then they put Mr. Gibson back--I think it was Mr. Gibson--put him back for the work. But they had to ...

Q: What work did your husband do at the college?

A: Well, he was goin'--he was workin' at the ole buildin', the ole sci--Larchmont buildin'.

Q: Mm-m.

A: Keepin' that up. And also he would--work with--helpin' out on the--in the yard and different and cleanin' and things like that, but and then when the basketball--like football games started, they would have football games and things like that, he would go out on the field and sell peanuts and different things from the little cart that they would go in.

Q: Would you say that the Administration treated the--the people who worked at the college fairly, in those days? Were they pretty happy or were there some problems?

A: Well, at that time I don't think _______ some of 'em _________ I think because they would, you know, you--well they wasn't payin' too much then _____ none of the school wasn't payin'. So at that time, we just' move' here in '29 and we was buyin' and so you know, my husband got chance to go to the bases, somewhere to get more money there, he had go because what he was doin' first was down to the coal pier and they wasn' doin' too much. And then after he went to the school, well they wouldn' give him but so much money, then they were gettin' paid once a month, wasn't paid twice a month. So.

Q: It's bad enough twice a month. (laughter)

A: Then they finally broke it down to get twice a month. But--and you had to meet them payments and things like that--we had two boys, so he went on down, left 'em and then went--it wasn't because that he was mistreated, but he just wanted--had to make more money. That was why he left.

Q: The--did you live here when you worked at the college?

A: Yeah, I moved here in '29.

Q: Oh, in this house, in'29?

A: Mm-m.

Q: And did you think that the expansion of the college caused problems in this neighborhood?

A: Well, I--I know that. (laughter)

Q: Yes, I'm sure.

A: I know that because there's so many people now have had to move out and go 'way find other places, because I could leave here and walk right on 'cross, you know in the buildin' and then lot o'--the people had used to raise--had farms out there. They had beans and different things they were growin' out there, and the last buildin' over this--not the last one but the science buildin'--when they built that one, it wasn' the science buildin' the administration buildin', they build that they had to plow a lot, they plowed a lot of the people's beans right under __________ because they told 'em they were takin' chances. But some of 'em did take the chance and do it, you know, and then when they build the stadium and all it just went right under, but it was--and since then it's so many people, 'cause I had a nephew lived on 45th St. He just had to move. _________ a house built and going out in Chesapeake. And on 45th and 46th, 45th and all that, all those people there move--had to move out. It really have caused a lot--and some of 'em say, "Well, ya'll be next. I said well, I don't know when but (chuckle) we probably will. But they're really comin' down this way mighty fast.

Q: They're right on this street, but I don't know if they are planning to take this area or not.

A: Mm-m. I don't know. And some talk about the waterfront, so they don't know what's going to be on this here, highway or somethin'. They don't know when--what they goin' to do.

Q: Mm-m. I heard of that, too. What would you say would be the principle memories of most lasting impressions that you have from the, oh I guess it was about 35 years, 36 years that you worked over at the college? Seem to be pleasant memories.

A: Oh, yeah, it was pleasant memories I had, well I could say it was pleasant then, but you know when you work to a place a long ti--and I know when, well I was 65 - that's what I was saying, we had to want to retire - and it was kind of a sad time, it was a sad time for to be leavin', you know, your time.

Q: Mm-m.

A: Because I had been there, but when I first went there I was the only woman that was workin' there but, even though more than all of 'em have came in since then, and some people said well after you work by yourself for a long time and then you get to know everybody else, it's just _________ it was a kind of a hard time.

Q: Mm-m.

A: To leave there, but after I left I just trying to make myself contented. And then my husband got sick, and then he pass so I said well I guess it was time that I ... but it was some--I had some good, pleasant days there because after Mr. Webb got over to the place and he w--when he was Dean and that ... whenever they had a party, anything, I and my husband was the ones that went and set up for everything for Mz Webb - she would always call on us to go and serve 'em down to school for them, so _________

Q: You liked--the Webb's were good people?

A: Oh, yes, yeah they was good people. Mr. Webb passes by here sometime twice a day and he blows and waves and--

Q: Oh, great, mm-m.

A: So, we did ...

Q: Yeah, he seems very active.

A: Yeah, he's real active.

Q: Very, very healthy.

A: We used to go down to the house and serve for 'em, so it was--I really enjoyed--well, I have enjoyed all of the faculty, I didn't- -Bud Metheny and all of 'em.

Q: Oh, yeah.

A: Everybody, we jus' ____.

Q: The ... in the sixties they had a few black students come there. Did you notice any change, or did you get to know any of them, Ron Horne or ...

A: Yeah, well, I knowed Ron, and them, but I--I left then.

Q: Mm-m.

A: But they ... some of 'em are real--have been real- -I think they- -the change has been there. Now I have a son--my grandson, he went down there w--did some graduate--I wasn't there--he did some graduate work down there.

Q: Mm-m.

A: And ... my granddaughter, I think she--they went down there for--went for a little while and takin' up some courses, in the evenin' courses. 'Cause he was goin' to Hampton and then they give 'im permission to come over to Old Dominion and do some--take up some courses there, before he did his grad--finish his graduate work. So, yeah, I think I did.

Q: It's definitely more, more open place now than it was 30 or 40 years ago.

A: Oh, yeah.

Q: That's for sure.

A: Much open.

Q: That's a much ... improvement. OK, well, thank you very much for answering these questions and ...

A: Yeah.

Q: ... we'll conclude on that.

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