ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
with

DR. HAROLD G. HAWN

April 29, 1975
Listen to Interview

Question: Today I’m continuing my interview with Dr. Harold G. Hawn of the Music Department of Old Dominion University. The first question today Dr. Hawn, during 1954 and 1955, you served as overall director of the college’s television programs, three series in all, could you provide more information on your duties?

Answer: Yes, during this time, Mr. Webb was very desirous--President Webb was very desirous of having a progr--series of programs that would feature various departments at the university as means of promoting the university and providing educational benefits for the community. The main series as I recall, was called “Signposts.” It was my duty as director of these programs to solicit those departments and those personnel that were interested in doing television work and to go and discuss how their idea could be presented over television and then to rehearse their program--I did all this on the campus--to rehearse their programs here at the campus, to type up the programs for the television media. I had done some work previously with television as I said before, up in Eerie, Pennsylvania, and so I had some knowledge of the requirements for shooting and also how to put down television scripts. So I just ... typed these up and then I would get down and confer with the television director at WTAR Television and we would plan the programs and then go down and do them. This proved to be very popular series and virtually all the departments on the campus participated. The Music, Biology, Business, quite a few and there were a lot of science programs in those days that were presented over “Signposts.”

Q: “Marriage of Figaro” was performed by the Opera Workshop in April of 1955. I wondered if the decision to sing the opera in English was a, in any sense, controversial decision and how did you feel about it?

A: Well, in those days, as I said previously, there just wasn’t any opera being done around here so there wasn’t too much controversy as to what way I would do it. I decided to use English because I felt that the overall gain from doing the operas in original language was much greater than what --- the things that we’d lost from having taken it from the original language. In the first place, these students that I was working with were students. They weren’t experienced singers. They did not understand Italian and other languages of operas that we were doing. And they would be--they were able to act their roles better when they knew what words they were singing and I felt for study purposes and for purposes of a workshop that this was far better training than to give them something in a foreign language that they neither would sing well or they certainly wouldn’t understand what they were doing. And the people who came to see the operas, since we were primarily interested in educating them too, we felt that if they could understand at least some of the words, it would be far better than them--for them to come and not know what was going on.

Q: I noticed that the production of “The Marriage of Figaro” did not receive a good review in the Norfolk Virginian-Pilot. Many letters to the editor then were written, protesting that review and declaring that professional standards were being applied to the students. Did you agree with this criticism of the review and did you often find that the newspaper’s reviewer took this approach?

A: Yes, that’s a very good question because, as I said previously, I feel that this was one of the downfalls of the Workshop as far as its development in the area. I feel that the press could never get over the fact that this was a workshop and not the Metropolitan or San Francisco Opera Company or something of this nature and we weren’t even trying to compete with them. We were trying to train students in a field that they had no training in. And frequently a person would be assigned to do a role for strictly training purposes and they certainly were not up to professional standard by far and they never seemed to take into consideration the trying circumstances under which these works were put on the stage. If they would’ve gotten behind the scenes and seen how these people got out in the snow and painted this set, how they--how they frequently would sew their own costumes and how they worked together as a unit, they would’ve gotten a true picture of what the workshop was all about. It was not a competing organization in the professional sense of the word at all, but we were trying to train some of these people who would ultimately become professional. And the people who wrote letters to the editor at this time did the workshop quite a service because there were times when they were able to sway the basic views of some of these reviewers to a point where they would come and look and see what we were doing behind the scenes but this was the exception rather than the rule.

Q: In the fall of 1955, the Opera Workshop presented Mennini’s “The Well” and Offenbach’s “RSVP.” Many of the singers performed one role on Friday night and then another role on Saturday night. Why did you follow this somewhat unusual procedure and was it successful?

A: From an educational standpoint, I felt that this procedure - and as you say, it was unusual - I felt that it was successful. If you were looking at the perf--if you were looking at the performances professionally, of course you would have to say that they were unsuccessful. But, again, I was interested in the educational aspects of what I was doing. In the first place, I was teaching at an educational institution. I wasn’t here as a professional opera director in a community opera. And my first and foremost responsibility was to train people. Now, in order to give a person an opportunity to sing as much as possible, I frequently would let them sing one role Sat--Friday night and then another role Saturday night. That gave them maximum exposure to the public, to the--to standing up on the stage and performing just two roles instead of one role. This helped them a great deal dramatically and musically, and I feel that the educational values derived from such a procedure really were very positive. And I--I--since I’m interested in education, I’d have to say that the procedure was successful.

Q: Did you become involved in the choir of a local church during the 1950s? I believe I read that you were named the Minister of Music at Miles Memorial Methodist Church in 1961.

A: Well, sacred music, of course, is something that’s very dear to my heart. I have been in church music work ever since I was old enough to--to sing at all, and up in Pennsylvania as a small child. When I came to Norfolk, I assumed the directorship of music at the Norview Presbyterian Church. I served there from 1953 to 1959. In 1959, I went to the Miles Memorial Methodist Church and served as their choirmaster for a period of twelve years. I was there from 1959 to 1971. In 1971, I went as Minister of Music to the Central Baptist Church in--all of these churches are in Norfolk. I served there from 1971 to 1973. In 1973, I became the Minister of Music at the Azalea Baptist Church in Norfolk where I still am serving. I ...I’ve always felt that this is one of the things that was primary in my remaining in Norfolk over this many years. Even with all the trials and tribulations at the university, I had this accompanying service and--which I enjoyed immensely. And it gave me an outlet that was truly beneficial to me musically and as far as my church work was concerned. So, in addition to serving as minister of music in many of these churches, I also, together with my wife, worked very actively in youth programs and ... but as I say, this was something I enjoyed very much.

Q: Could you tell me how you chose various operas to be performed by the workshop group? For example, Menotti’s “The Medium” and “The Telephone” in 1956.

A: There were many various facets that prompted me to choose the works that I did for the Opera Workshop. Many times I would choose works according to the talent that was available to do the work. Of course, this is the ideal way to do it. It’s--it’s highly dangerous to select an opera and then have tryouts and learn that you don’t have the people to fill the roles. In those early days, there weren’t too many people around this area singing opera and so you had to be sure that you had, at least, reasonable talent available to do the work that you were planning to do. So, I always looked at that facet first. Another thing, I would select a work many times because of its value and function as an educational medium. Many works are very good for this. They teach people basic acting. There’s a lot of--there’s a lot of dramatic interplay between the characters and sometimes I would select a work for its function. In other words, if we were going to have some special activity during the year that would call for an American opera, like an American music festival or something, then I would be looking in that direction in selecting a work. I also selected works for a balanced educational program. If you look over the years, you’ll probably see that--that I--we did many, many different types of operas and musicals and this was to give the singers a wide, broad picture of opera and the differences between musical comedy and opera and chamber opera and operetta and so forth. And I tried to give them some experience in all of these facets. Another thing, of course, that governed my selection were expenses. I had to be very careful about how much money the opera was going to cost. Some operas are very expensive to produce because of the sets and the costumes that you have to have to do them. Another thing I would do in my selection would be the physical facilities that would be available to me. Sometimes I would have to select an opera because I just didn’t have the physical facilities to do a work that I might like to do and also, production space. I mean how much room was there going to be for me to build the scenery. This has always been a problem at this university. It’s always been very difficult to try to keep things that you had constructed because the storage facilities around here have been virtually nil. And therefore, I had to be very cautious about building things that I wouldn’t be able to find the space to construct them in. Another thing was audition. I would--in some occasions I would try to deliberately not select my works until after I had the Opera Workshop class started and had everybody audition and find out exactly what their talents were, what types of activities in regards to lyric theater that they were interested in participating in. Then I would select the work. This had both a positive and a negative result. It would be very difficult sometimes to get somebody to register for the class when they didn’t know what we were going to do and secondly, the positive thing was that, once they came and sang we knew what we had in the way of singers and actors and so forth and generally we could fit works that really fit the class to perfection.

Q: In 1956, the Opera Workshop attended the National Opera Convention in New York. Could you provide me some information on this trip?

A: Yes, this was a--a very educational field trip is what I called it. This was a convention in which a number of Workshop people who had been singing in the Workshop for a number of years became interested in. It was centered around community opera and at these conventions, they’re always very educational. It’s not just some place where you go and sit but you actually participate. And you have many demonstrations going on of--of production--newest production techniques, newest techniques for lighting and staging and you have a number of the finest specialists in the country showing you various ways of doing the same thing. The group that went felt that the trip was highly educational, beneficial to them and they were able to see a little bit more into why I was doing things the way I was doing them. So, I think it helped the--the organization immensely to have these people--there were, as I recall, five or six of--of these experienced Opera Workshop people who went with us then and are still in the area singing opera by the way.

Q: How did the Workshop commemorate the 200th anniversary of Mozart’s birth in 1956?

A: This was a year that I wasn’t here. I was away at Indiana working on my Doctors degree and Robert Young ... took over and I think the two op--I don’t know that there was anything specially done as far as opera was concerned during this year, but I do know that he did “La Boheme” and he did “Hansel and Gretel” while I was away at Indiana. But there was--to my knowledge, there wasn’t anything specifically done for--as far as commemorating Mozart’s birth during that time.

Q: Did any individuals in the community act in any way as patrons of the Opera Workshop? I believe in one article, a Reverend Edward Goddard is mentioned in this connection.

A: We had a--a number of various types of support from our community when we were conducting the Workshop. When you stop to think about it, the performers themselves, the students who--who kept registering each semester for years and years, some of them as many as ten or twelve years. They kept coming back and paying fees to come into the Workshop in order that they could perform various opera roles. That in itself is a form of patronage to the Workshop. We had not too much in the way of--of gifts, outright gifts to the group. When we did a show, we would sometimes print a program in which we could get some patron money then. They would donate five or ten dollars to--to help defray the expenses of the workshop. The Edward Goddard that you speak of here, was not a Reverend. He was a--he was a ... Minister of Music, I think at ... one of the Methodist churches in town, I can’t think now just which one, but he was very active in the workshop for years. He came in and kept registering like many of the others to sing these various roles. We did have one club that became very active in supporting the organization. This came in the ‘60s, it wasn’t in the ‘50s as we’re talking about now. But later on, the Optimist Club of Norfolk became very active in sponsoring certain shows that we did and this helped a great deal to defray the expenses at Center Theater.

Q: Were any of the Workshop’s productions broadcast over the college radio station, WMTI-FM or any commercial stations?

A: We had very little broad--broadcasting going on of our programs as far as radio was concerned. I feel that perhaps this might’ve been beneficial if we would’ve done s--done more PR work. I think that ... I had my hands just more than full trying to get these shows on the stage. And in those days, we didn’t have a--a --a department at the university that--that took on these projects to promote organizations too much, and therefore, just what some of the people in the workshop were able to muster up in a way of--of contacts with the various commercial media, that’s about all we were able to get. Now we did do a number of television scenes over WTAR and WVEC, in which they gave us some prime time and we were able to broadcast, every year really, once or twice we would appear on television.

Q: I believe you already answered the next question. You relinquished the directorship for a year to continue study for the doctoral degree. Did you give any recitals in the community during the period of the 1950s?

A: Yes, I didn’t give too many because anybody who is a concert singer realizes that you--you don’t maintain that concert ... what should I say, strength, when you are giving it all to opera. In those early days, I really spent myself trying to get these shows on the stage and therefore, the actual singing of concerts--I gave some concerts at the museum and at the university and I sang many solo roles in large choral presentations at the university. In those days, we would give large things at the university such as “The Messiah,” “The Requiem” by Brahms and so forth and Dr. Vogan who was on the faculty has always given large sacred works at the Presbyterian church in town here and I sang many times the solo works for him. So, I would say, yes, I gave these concerts. They were infrequent just because I was spending my energy doing other things.

Q: When you were back at the Norfolk Division in 1958, you assisted in the production of “Carmen.” I wondered if you could give any more information on the part you played in this?

A: Yes, when I returned from Indiana, I again assumed the directorship of the Opera Workshop and “Carmen” was one of the first major works that we gave. We gave it, I would say, under not the best conditions. We gave it in the gymnasium here at the school and that wasn’t too good a place acoustically or otherwise. But I--I staged the work and conducted the orchestra and did the usual set design and construction and most of the painting and my wife oversaw all the costume work. We had a very good cast, musically, for “Carmen” and I thought that the orchestra was quite good. But we--again as I say when I came back from Indiana, took up the Workshop productions--major productions each year.

Q: Again in 1958, you were engaged in educational television. You produced and directed two courses on WVEC, Channel 15 at that time. One of these was the music course number 211E “Music Appreciation and Literature.” Could you tell me more about this?

A:  Yes, this was quite a milestone for Old Dominion because - then it was William and Mary of course
- this was the first time that any college course was given for credit over a commercial television station in the state of Virginia. And we gave a number of these courses. One was typing, another one was a history of Virginia and I don’t remember the man now that gave the typing course for the School of Business, then it was the Department of Business, but Mr. Young who is now the Chairman of the Music Department, taught the “Music Appreciation and Literature” course over television and Dean Pliska taught the history of Virginia. As I recall, Hon--the Honorable William Whitehurst who was then on our history staff here at our university taught a course. I just don’t recall the name of it but as I recall he was also--he really was always very active in television. And I helped him stage some of his programs when he gave them on “Signposts” in our early days here at the school. And then later on, he continued to appear on television and I worked with him in the shows that he gave at that time. I--the production and direction of these, again I would type up the programs, go over them with the teachers at the university and then would get down and air them over WVEC.

Q: You attended a National Opera Workshop Conference in New York in 1958. Did this conference provide you with new ideas for the college’s workshop and how did you feel the college’s effort compared to other such efforts around the country?

A: Each year, as I think I’ve mentioned before, I’d been serving for many years as Treasurer of the National Opera Association. This association gives conferences every year and they--they are--they’re given throughout the United States. These conferences are very educational. They always provide you with new insights how--on how to stage as far as college workshops are concerned and how to set up community workshops and so forth. I’ve always felt that the--that the college’s effort here compared very, very favorable with what was going on around the nation because I was able at these national conferences to see what was being done and in those days, we really were doing far more in many respects than many of the larger universities around the univer--around the United States. And so I always felt very good about the efforts that we were putting forth here. It’s--it’s--it’s too bad that we did not get the support locally that we were getting recognized for at the national level. I’ve always felt this and I think that at the national level sometimes we were better known for what we were doing than what we--than--than what we were known for doing right here in our own community.

Q: One of the highlights of the spring of 1958 was the Workshop’s production of “Oklahoma.” What part did you play in this production?

A: Again, I was you might call chief, cook and bottle washer because I, again, conducted the orchestra, staged the work, designed the scenery, helped to paint it and so forth, conducted the orchestra. This work I might say was one of the few musicals and operas that made money for the university. “Oklahoma” was done a number of times in the area but it was very successful, not only artistically successful but it was very successful from a financial viewpoint.

Q: You did then perform it in the area. There was mention in the press of the performance of the entire opera at the Williamsburg Phi Beta Kappa Hall and in Virginia Beach at the Confederacy Amphitheater. Do you recall these performances?

A: Yes, I recall them very well. Both of these were highly successful. We went to the, then the Confederacy Amphitheater at Virginia Beach, and--after we had done the work in the college gymnasium here--and we also went up to Williamsburg. The out--the outdoor amphitheater was very interesting because the first time we were going to present it there, it just poured down rain and I was afraid that all of my scenery would be washed away because it was all up and ready to go when the rains came. But fortunately it didn’t--I had enough glue in the paint that it didn’t cause it to run off and we were able to give the production there after all.

Q: The workshop’s production of “La Traviata” in English received very favorable reviews in January of 1959. Do you recall this presentation?

A: Yes, this was--you know, during the years I gave all these shows, there were some highlights, there’s no question about it. I feel that this was one of them. At the present time, they’re just ready--getting ready to do “La Traviata” here in Norfolk, Virginia Opera Association, and many of the performers that were in my original production in 1959 are still active today in the area and will be performing in this Virginia Opera Association’s production that’s coming up. The reviews were very favorable and even though the work was done again under not too ideal condition, the--we did this work in the college gymnasium and as I said before that’s a far cry from a theater, but the work was very successfully done I thought.

Q: The workshop also presented “Pepito’s Golden Flower” as part of the Norfolk Division’s participation in the American Music Festival in 1959. Could you explain this?

A: Yes, one thing that the Opera Workshop was always noted for was the large number of American chamber operas that we did. This was not by accident because this was the theme that I used for my doctoral dissertation at Indiana University and I did uncover a large number of unusual works, American works, and we were able to do, during a ten year period, more American chamber opera productions than any other university in the United States. I think this is quite a distinction. We began to give American Music Festivals about this time and this was an ideal vehicle for these festivals because they were American and it provided a highlight for these festivals. “Pepito’s Golden Flower” was written by a lady, Mary Caldwell of California and it deal--it dealt with the early history of the United States. It was an ideal work because it had a lot of children in it. It appealed to a lot of young people and I chose it because of its color, its setting, its historical significance and the work was very well received. The--the bu--the con--this business of continuing to do American works for these festivals did go on into the ‘60s.

Q: Do you recall any students from your first six years of college who especially distinguished themselves in their performances and/or went on to professional careers in music?

A: I don’t recall exactly how many years these people served in the workshop that I’m going to mention. But we have had a large number of people go through the workshop who have come back after being very successful in--in opera and musicals pro--in a professional way and tell me what--how much their training meant to them when they got out into the professional world. I wanna mention several people. Patty and Shirley Thompson, who were sisters, sang very actively in the workshop in the early years, did a number of roles and were very successful in opera abroad and in this country. They sang opera in Germany for a number of years and were very active in the North--North--Northeast. I think Shirley Thompson is now back in this country, still singing very actively and I think she’s teaching in California. Frank Somers was probably the best bass that ever went through this university. He went on to further study at Indiana University to receive his Masters degree there and to sing in “The Singing Sergeants” and then to go into professional opera in the summer- touring opera company - and then went into the Met studio, went abroad and sang very successfully, major opera roles in several cities in Germany and Italy. He even made some television opera appearances over there and he too is now back in the United States and still very active as an opera singer and is currently working for his Doctor of Musical Arts degree at the University of Michigan. Eugene Davis, a baritone, also was very active in the Opera Workshop here. He was a student of Mr. Young and he distinguished himself at Indiana University and then later went to New York to sing there professionally. He, I understand, is also now teaching at a university, I’m not sure whether it’s in Maine or in Florida, but I know that he is still actively involved in teaching. These people together with many, many local people who still remain active in--in opera singing, I think shows that the training that they received was beneficial and this is probably the most disappointing facet to me at this time, is that we do not now have in Norfolk a training vehicle for those people who might desire to enter the opera profession. And this is a sad commentary because we do have a number of people that are trying to go in that direction and educationally speaking, we don’t have the proper facilities and facets for them to be trained. But Robert Randolph, who is a salesman for a lumber company here, was--sang many, many roles in the Opera Workshop, one of the leading baritones in the community, sings for Christ and St. Luke’s Episcopal Church and will be singing in “La Traviata” production coming up in a few weeks. Another Opera Workshop person who likewise is still singing opera very successfully is Athena ___ who works at WTAR television. A very fine opera singer, who probably sang more major opera roles for me than any other person in the community, remains very active as an opera singer. Henry Burnick, who did a number of leading tenor roles for me, received his early training in the Opera Workshop and is still actively singing opera in the community. James ___ likewise sang many leading roles. He’s a very fine character actor and singer, and my own son who started out in--as a--in--in many of my choruses, children’s choruses in these operas is now a Performance major, a junior at Old Dominion University and he is very active in opera singing today. So these are some of the people who are--who--who have profited and I still hear many countless people come to me and tell me what these experiences have meant to them, and meant to them in their lives.

Q: During 1959, you also taught a course on television “Production” over WVEC. How did this come about?

A: The Speech Department at Old Dominion asked me to teach this course. It was in their curriculum and since I had a great deal of experience actively in prod--in producing and directing many television shows - I don’t know exactly how many I directed and produced since I’ve been here but I would say it’s certainly been over 2000 shows - and they asked me if I would teach this course and so I did in conjunction with WVEC. We--we taught many of the class sessions at the university and then we would go down to the studio and the students were able to actually operate the equipment and produ--produce their own shows right there in the studio. WVEC in these days really provided a great deal of facility for this university free of charge, and we really owe a great deal of debt to both the WVEC and WTAR for the large amount of public service time that they have given to this university.

Q: Again in 1960 the Opera Workshop performed two youth operas, “The Giant’s Garden” by Sherman and Jane Crane, a world premiere I believe, and “The Emperor’s New Clothes” by Moore and Abrashkin. Were you still choosing the operas to be performed, and why were the youth operas proving to be so popular?

A: Well, during the 1960’s it was ever becoming evident that the cost of our shows were going up and we weren’t reaping enough money to pay for them and that together with the fact that I felt that we should try to educate the young audience, the youth in the area to the values of opera and so I turned in the direction of operas for children with the idea of preparing them and taking them into the local schools.  These two were among the first that we did this with. I did select the works and as I say I did them because I felt that this was a good way of training our youth to appreciate opera.  And they really did appreciate it. These operas were very popular. We chose works that were appealing to youth. “The Giant’s Garden” was quite a difficult work to do, as I recall had some really difficult, technical things to do where you had to have trees that had snow on them that had to immediately bloom, and technically that isn’t easy to do, and so it presented some production problems for our Workshop to solve. “The Emperor’s New Clothes” is a highly fascinating story, and we did these works at the Blair Jr. High School, and we had the place pretty well packed with children who really howled and screamed and the works really were very successful.

Q: In late April of 1960 William Lewis,  a  leading tenor for the Metropolitan Opera, appeared as the Workshop’s guest star for the production of Die Fledermaus.  How was it that the services of such an outstanding person were obtained and also how did Lewis blend in with the other performers in the opera?

A: Well, I’m happy to report that this was really one of the, I would say successful experiments that we made. We, in doing this, didn’t know how it would work out to have a highly professional man like William Lewis come and participate with our Workshop people. But I’m very pleased to report that it worked out beautifully. Largely because Mr. Lewis was a very personable man. He got along very well with the students and vice-versa. There was no friction whatsoever between our local singers and Mr. Lewis. We brought him in to try to attract more people into the theatre to see our shows. We wanted to increase our attendance. We did not at that time have a local tenor available either to do this role, and so we paid for Mr. Lewis to come in to do it. And the community I would say didn’t respond again as well as we anticipated that they would. The name did not attract the numbers of people that we thought it would, and we just did not make any money on this show. In fact I think we lost money, on a show that was highly successful artistically.  The people, the cast that we had locally were very good and Mr. Lewis remarked that he felt very much at home with the blocking that we had previously established before he arrived and that he thought that the singers that performed with him were highly skilled and were very easy to work with and it seemed to be a happy experience all around.

Q: In 1960 the National Federation of Music Clubs chose the College’s Workshop to receive its special award of merit in the 1960 Parade of Music. What significance did this have for your program?

A: Well, again, I would say that from the national standpoint it had a great significance, but from a local one not very much. This was quite a recognition for the Workshop to receive because there’s no question about it, the William and Mary Opera Workshop here in Norfolk was doing far more to promote the American composer and American opera than any other university in the United States. And we were receiving very fine national recognition for it but we were getting very little support in Norfolk for it. And this was one of the very difficult things to understand. And of course it’s never really--the local impression that you have to come from the outside to be good has still never been completely broken down, unfortunately.

Q: You’ve already answered the next question, after seven years of the Division you were then disappointed in the response of the Norfolk community to the opera productions. What other courses had you been teaching aside from the Opera Workshop?

A: Well, in those days there weren’t too many people in the department and so we had to teach a number of things, so in addition to my work with the Opera Workshop, I taught voice and piano, music appreciation and generally was busy seven days a week.

Q; During the 1950’s which individuals were assuming the leading roles in the music department and representing its interests to the College administration?

A: Well, in those days of course, Dr. Vogan was chairman of the department and I tried to work very closely with Dr. Vogan in producing these operas and he in turn would work with the administration. He really represented in those days our interests to the administration. He frequently would serve as producer of the operas and then I would direct them and that was the administrative setup that we had in those days.

Q: Would you discuss your involvement in the Virginia Federation of Music Clubs.

A: Yes, I became active in this group in the 60’s because of their tremendous interest in the Opera Workshop. We prepared a number of scenes and even operas, chamber operas, and gave them to the Federation in some of their state and district meetings. I also served on as chairman of the opera committee for the Virginia Federation of Music Clubs.

Q: Did the College administration encourage you to give performances before civic clubs and at high schools in the area?

A: Yes, I--the--President Webb and other officials at the university were always anxious for us to go out and represent the university. They encouraged us to do so, and many times President Webb will--would even himself make the contacts with the various civic groups and then have me pick it up from there and plan the program to be presented and in those days we really did a lot of community activity with the Workshop.

Q: In 1961, the Workshop offered the first performance of an original work, “The Twilight Saint” by Willard Robb of the faculty of the Norfolk College of William and Mary. Can you recall Professor Robb and anything about his writing this work?

A: Yes. Willard was a very close colleague of mine in those days and he--his primary duties at university was to conduct the William and Mary Chorus. Willard wrote this opera and--just a few years before I planned to produce it, and he was very instrumental in helping me as far as staging the work is concerned and in giving me his personal comments as to how he felt the work should go on the stage.  This was a fine little opera, and I am sorry to report that the score has been lost in Germany, because I felt that the work had a great deal of merit. The principal figure in the opera was St. Francis of Assisi. And in the opera was--we had Mr.Young who performed a lot of opera roles in the Workshop, who is now chairman of the music department. We did the work in the Larchmont Elementary School across the street from the university and, again in not too ideal conditions because the stage is rather small, but the work was very successful. I think by and large the people accepted it well.  It’s a very melodious opera and orchestrated very skillfully by Mr. Robb. It was, as I say, a successful work that I’m very sorry is still not in our possession because I would like very much to be able to re--have repeated this opera.

Q: In 1961 “South Pacific” was performed by the Workshop. I believe that Professor T. Ross Fink of the Education Department starred in that production. Do you have any recollections of that performance?

A: Yes, this was quite a large show, as I recall. We had many, many people in it. It takes a lot of forces to do “South Pacific.” There quite a large chorus involved, and Professor Fink, who was then Dean of the School of Education, Department of Education, did one of the roles of one of the officers in the show. This--the business of using various teachers and families of teachers was always something that was very common with the Opera Workshop, because it was very difficult to have enough people in the Workshop class itself to fill all the roles and certainly to have all the chorus people that you needed, and we were very fortunate in having many people - families, professors - who were interested in the Workshop and wanted to see it grow and they spent many, many thousands of hours singing in choruses, taking parts in--certain roles in the operas and musicals that we did and building scenery and just--I felt that the support that was--that we received from the faculty and students and families at the university was one of the war--heartwarming facets of the Workshop. It drew people together, and I think that’s a very good thing.

Q: --

A: Excuse me, one more thing I might mention is that we also took “South Pacific” to William and Mary at the Phi Beta Kappa Hall and presented it up there.

Q: Do you recall your involvement in a performance of the Norfolk Civic Ballet in 1962 as part of the Azalea Festival? You recruited a 19-piece orchestra for this occasion. From where did they come, and what was the specific challenge you faced in performing music for ballet?

A: Yes, this was a new experience for me to do ballet music as such. We did not have in those days a full orchestra at the university. We always lacked strings - even in our operas, we had to--we had to do one of two things in those early days. We had to either go out and hire all the orchestra from the Norfolk Symphony, or--I thought that the Union in the city was very cooperative with the university. They knew we were trying to train people to do these things and ... I recruited the orchestra frequently by starting with the students we had at the university who were capable of playing the parts and then I would go to the Union and say, “Now, we need 8-10 strings to augment this orchestra so that we can perform this work: would you give us special permission to have your 10 Union people play with our students to do this show?” and they were very, very cooperative. Year after year they made this special concession for the benefit of the--then the College of William and Mary.  The challenge was that, although I conducted many operas in which ballet appeared, I never conducted anything that was strictly dance from beginning to end. But Gene Hammet who was the director of the Norfolk Civic Ballet at that time also happened to be the person who did most of the choreography for all of my shows. In my operas and musicals. And so Mr. Hammet and I had worked a number of years together before this really came up, and therefore the fact that we were experienced with each other made the rapport between the balletmaster and the conductor very good, and so I felt it was a very positive experience--I thought that their presentation in the festival was highly artistic and again I enjoyed very much working with the Norfolk Civic Ballet for the years that I could do it.

Q: The newspaper mentioned that you were the director of the William and Mary Orchestra in 1962. I assume this orchestra that they meant was the orchestra of the Norfolk institution. Could you provide some information on this?

A: Yes. They really meant that I directed the Norfolk Division William and Mary Orchestra in’62, and my direction of course--the orchestra was really formed with the tremendous assistance of the band director at the time who was Eugene Paxia who unfortunately later died very young, just like Professor Robb did. We lost two very fine faculty members during the 60’s and very close friends of mine. But Mr. Paxia came to me and saw the great need for an orchestra and helped me to set up the orchestra here at the university and which he provided most of the people for out of his band, and through his cooperation and the generous cooperation of the union we were able to have some, I thought, some very fine orchestras for our operas.  And this was really set up to accompany performances and we did very little work as far as just straight orchestra performances were concerned.

Q: How did you manage to keep the Workshop together for summer performances, for example, “HMS Pinafore” in 1962?

A: Well, when they started to do this Norfolk festival, summer festival, in the park, it became apparent that they would like to have some music done there, some musicals, and they came to me to find out if I could produce one during the summer for them. And so, as I recall, the first time we tried this we just tried to get people together that were interested and it was very difficult. Then the second summer that we functioned we decided to offer the class during the summer months and I was able to get more of a unified production that way, because the people took the course for credit, both the orchestra people and the singers were able to come into the Workshop and take it for credit during the summer. The “Pinafore” production--it was a very strange one, we had some pretty bad weather when we did that, and I notice that you are going to ask me about this in the next question.

Q: I was wondering why it said in the newspaper that the performance almost ended in disaster at the City Park Amphitheatre.

A: Yes, the disaster was the rains came and they really did come. We had a deluge of--downpour of rains. I had my ship built on the stage of the amphitheatre and the rains completely filled the area immediately in front of the amphitheatre right up to the stage itself, so it looked like my ship was actually riding on the water.  And we had to wait for the water to recede before we could put our orchestra in there, and actually present the operetta to the people. But it was very, very well received--the place was deluged with people then. The people really did turn out to see that show. The park was just jammed and it turned out to be a very successful production. I think one of the things that later led to the development of the Savoyards, the Norfolk Savoyards, I think that that was one of the outgrowths of these Gilbert and Sullivan summer shows.

Q: Could you tell me the story then of how the Music Department first came to have space in the old Armory on Hampton Blvd and after that in the old Armory stable on 45th St.

A: Yes, during the 60’s we really were very hampered for space as I have said before in order to construct scenery and to rehearse even. We were--we were building sets out in the parking lot behind the football field and then we would stack them, stack these sets up in a room up underneath the steps that leaked like a sieve so we really had terrible problems with the production side of these operas. We were really doing a lot more than we had the facility to do, to be frank. But we felt a great need for this kind of work. But at any rate Mr. Webb acquired the old Armory building on Hampton Blvd. for our use on the second floor. During those days the Technical Institute used the first floor of this Armory building for teaching auto mechanics and auto body work and he gave us the entire second floor of what was a very large building. We were able to do many things on--it was really a pretty good setup ... for opera people because it had lots of space and the ceilings were high and we were able to store all of our scenery, all of our props, all of our costumes, all of our makeup and we were able to build and construct all of our scenery and we had plenty of room up there to rehearse. So it was an ideal situation for the Workshop for two or three years until they decided that the Armory had to be torn down. It was condemned and that Armory moved--that part of the Armory work moved out on Virginia Beach Blvd. We had no place to go then and so President Webb asked if we might be able to go into the other Arm--old Armory building which was a stable over on 45th St, or 46th St I think it is. Anyway, we went over there and started to build our scenery and store our scenery and we used that room for rehearsal purposes from then on. We were only supposed to use it temporarily - he was just trying to get us in out of the weather - but it’s turned out to be quite a permanent affair and now the building is still being used today, not only for work such as--we don’t do much construction in the way  of scenery now in there, but the room is used for all kinds of rehearsal purposes for band, orchestra, chorus, and everything ... as far as our large groups are concerned. They meet in that Armory building now which is of course grossly inadequate for a music department.

Q: You already answered the next question. I was going to ask you also, in 1963 there was an article in which you indicated that this building would soon be demolished. I wonder what happened to the plans 12 years ago to demolish the building and the building is still being used today.

A: Well, I think the plans were abandoned because the university did not provide the really basic required space for a music department to conduct its work and did not place us high enough on the priority to get the buildings and the facilities that we needed and therefore they seemed to be content for years and years and years to just let us in the stable. And that’s exactly what happened - we just were left alone and not developed as the rest of the university was developing and we’re still there today.

Q: Did the college’s independence from William and Mary have any special significance for the Music Department?

A: I would say very little. The basic philosophy of this department, of the university I should say--although ... the feeling of belonging to each other and to having more--to have joint efforts between departments, I would say, lessened.  We no longer have the faculty and families of faculty and so forth that wanted to participate in these things as much. Departments I would say grew more away from each other rather than towards each other. They grew more independent, and the sense to help each other was not nearly as strong as it was in the early days when the school was smaller. I would say that was one of the big changes and was one of the things that prompted me to go to the smaller works, because I had really fewer people available to do them.

Q: During these years in addition to all your other commitments you managed to complete your doctorate degree. Could you tell me how you did this.

A: Well, this wasn’t easy. In the first place ... I was a long way from my advisor. Indiana University is a long way from Norfolk, Virginia, and I worked when I could in the summer. In the summers I generally went back to--to work with my committee or to take additional subject matter and I, oddly enough, I passed my orals and written examinations twice which was--that was really some job because it--the dissertation that I chose to do in American chamber opera grew out of proportion--all proportion to what we thought it would when we started. But once I passed a certain spot I felt I couldn’t go back. My doctoral dissertation is--has 141 American chamber operas that were written between 1947 and 1956. And although I had completed my classwork years  before, it took me quite a number of years to complete the work on these 141 chamber operas. We had no idea when we started this project that there’d be that many chamber operas  available to me and once, as I say, once I got into it I felt as though I had to complete it.  As a result, I have the largest doctoral dissertation as far as size is concerned at the Indiana--at Indiana University School of Music. It’s nine volumes long. And it’s used a great deal by people throughout the country who are looking for unusual chamber operas written by Americans and it has been microfilmed and gone out to a number of universities. I wanted to do something useful in the field of opera and I feel that I did. As far as completing my doctorate is concerned, President Webb urged me to go back to finish my doctorate. When I found out that--well first of all, I didn’t realize that Indiana University had put in a requirement that you had to complete it within five years and so I went past the five year limit before I realized the requirement was there.   And so even though I had already passed my orals and written once I had to go back and do it all over again. But I had support of a very good wife and family and so when it came time to finish this doctorate I--Mr. Webb at his recommendation and his help, my wife took a year’s leave of absence from her banking duties here in town and we picked up the family and went back to Indiana and--in’65 and’66--and so I was able to complete my dissertation and do all of writtens and orals again. So that’s how it took place.

Q: What was your greatest satisfaction over the years in the Opera Workshop?

A: I suppose the greatest satisfaction I’ve had has been in seeing what the Workshop has meant to the lives of the people who have participated in it. I’m very interested in the positive effects that such a task can have upon so many diverse people working on a single project.   And I’ve just had countless people tell me and I’ve been able to observe that their lives actually change as they work together in these projects. I’ve had people come who were very backward, very withdrawn from society and from themselves and many of them would not express themselves, hardly talk to anybody, wouldn’t get up in front of people and when they graduated from the division here, after they had been in the Workshop I could see a big change come over them personally. I could also see that people of all statues of life - doctors, people who were housewives, Navy people, students, faculty, families, children, high school, grade school - all of these people would come together for a single purpose and that had a positive effect on these people’s lives. And I meet these people in the community today and I still hear from them what these--what this working together meant to them. Meant to them as far as an outlet - the doc--I had a doctors quartet in one of these works--and these doctors came to me and said this was one of the finest experiences they ever had in their lives, that it was an outlet for them that relaxed them, that caused them to work together with other people for a single cause and I feel that to me this is the greatest satisfaction that I’ve seen, is the changing in the lives of the people.

Q: In 1963 the Opera Workshop became the Opera Theatre. Could you explain why this change took place?
A: Yes, during a period of time--the Workshop really went through three different changes. I started out the Workshop feeling that we should approach the productions we gave strictly from a workshop viewpoint. Having everybody do all the facets of the show. Build the scenery, make the costumes and so forth. In 1963, that would have been about 10 years after we started, it became evident that they were more interested in doing the theatre type thing in which they would work on larger shows and more shows. And at that time I placed the emphasis on putting more shows on the stage and brought a couple of people to assist me in the production backstage - they didn’t feel that they had sufficient time to do the singing roles and the production aspects of the operas. So we went in the theatre direction aiming at producing more shows and doing less of the backstage activities. Then later on it went through another change in which we came back the other direction. Came from the theatre aspect back into the workshop aspect. So it’s gone through those three stages since I’ve been here.

Q: In late 1963, a Mr. Roger Place, a drama and speech teacher, joined the theatre staff to supervise student directors. Could you tell me more about his responsibilities?

A: Yes, Roger joined the Drama and Speech Department and, as I say, during that time we were interested in putting as many shows on the stage as we could and so Roger came in and assisted in the staging of a couple of these works. That took some burden off of my shoulders and relieved me of some of that responsibility for staging these works. I think he did two or three shows with us. See Roger wasn’t here very long. But during that year, he did stage the works and tried to teach some of the students the dramatic aspects of the theatre.

Q: In 1964, the Opera Theatre began to go into the high schools to present a program entitled “Let’s Make An Opera.” Could you tell me more about this?

A: Yes, this was, again going along the idea of taking opera to the youth of the area. I tried to not only take the operas there but I tried to have the youth of the area become a part of the operas. So I went around to a number of schools and chose several key elementary students and some secondary students to come in and sing this “Lets Make An Opera” so that they became a part of the actual show itself. And I thought it went very well. We took this show “Let’s Make An Opera”  to a number of the schools in the area. I know--remember we went out to Northside Junior High School, we also went out to Kempsville. And the idea was instead of bringing the students into the school, into the University to see the shows, to get as many students as we could involved in the production and then take the shows out to the school. And it worked very successfully, I thought. Not only did it work successfully from the student standpoint but I was able to bring in some of the teachers to come in and help later in the Opera Workshop’s productions.

Q: Next question has three parts, so we’ll take them up one at a time. The ODC’s Opera Theatre and the ODC Theatre in 1964 joined forces for the first time in their production of “Kismet.” I wondered if this joint venture was forced by the fact that President Webb had refused to finance the projected $7.000 deficit of the Opera Theatre in 1964-65.

A: Well, this was one of the definite contributing factors, together with the fact that if we used the theatre and the music department--the speech and music department together, it would do--it would also provide us with more people to do the large number of roles involved in Kismet. And Kismet is a very difficult show scenery-wise. The costumes are elaborate, the sets are elaborate and it is a difficult show to do unless you have large forces. So I would say that we joined forces because we had to--if we were going to do that show, we had to from a financial standpoint and we also had to just from the standpoint of the numbers of people required to do the show.

Q: You pointed out that the disapproved budget for 1964-65 was the same the President had been approving for years but in a different form. The form had previously been changed from what you proposed, by the department head who concealed salaries and hidden expenses. What major changes in the opera program had you been trying to make for years unsuccessfully?

A: Yes, this is a very good question, because I do feel that this was one of the things that pointed up how much the program was actually costing the University. Up until this time, when I put in a budget for a season I had just been listing the actual cost of the production itself, such as costumes, scenery, sets, rental, orchestrations and so forth, the cost of the theater and likewise.  However I had never, in any of these budgets, shown the president what it actually was costing the University in salaries to the teachers who were involved in it. To myself, as far as my sa--my salary was concerned and in the case of other people who assisted me how much of their salary was being allocated to the opera program. This was a real revelation to him and it really showed that the opera program was an expensive one. But I felt that we had to, in all honesty we had to show everything. And therefore I felt that--what I was trying to do over the years was to try to have the University make a deep commitment for opera to see its value not only as an educational device here at the University, but to see its tremendous influence in the community and also to show how it influenced people to come to the University, because we were able to get in those days many students in voice and also instrumental people, who came because they enjoyed the opera productions and wanted to continue in them as a student. Not just as somebody who volunteered for high school. And this was one of the things that I had been trying for years to show, was the tremendous scope of the Workshop’s productions, that it wasn’t merely a college function. That it did many, many things for the community and that we at the University should take this on as a real significant commitment, and this we were not able to achieve. And of course when President Webb and I sat down at this conference on June the 5th in 1964, it became very apparent that we were going to have to make some changes because Pres. Webb himself felt that he did not have the funds to make the commitment that was necessary to carry on this major program, and by then it had become a major program. We were doing four and five operas a year, and that is a major program.

Q: Could you provide me with the dates of your term or terms as Chairman of the Music Department?

A: Yes, one year before I went back to Indiana Mist--President Webb told me that he would like me to be Chairman of the Music Department but he did want his chairmen to hold the doctorate--to hold the doctorate. And ... therefore I agreed to go back and finish my degree in 1964. I was made Acting Chairman the year before, which would have been 1963-64. And the Interim Chairman was to be Professor Breneiser. He was to serve as chairman in my absence and then when I came back I would be appointed Chairman of the department and this commitment Mist--President Webb did live up to. I served as Chairman from 1963 to 19--1963-1964. Then I went back to Indiana in 1964-65. And then when I returned to the campus 1965-66, I’m sorry. 1965-66 is the year I was at Indiana. When I came back to Old Dominion in 1966, President Webb appointed me Chairman and I served until 1971.

Q: To backtrack a bit, just for one question, I noticed another article that I hadn’t seen before that back in 1954 there was concern on the part of several faculty members that the students were not supporting the opera performances. You’ve mentioned the lack of community support, I was wondering if the students came to support it more over the years.

A: Well, this was one of the things that prompted me, I think, to change the philosophy from just doing op--just doing shows for the stage  ... well, really, this was one of the things that caused me to get into Workshop as a student affair rather than outside affair. I think that some of the students at the University had some resentment toward some of the people who came in from the community and sang some of these major roles. Obviously young students were not equipped vocally or were not mature enough to sing opera and therefore we were hoping that they would be satisfied to sing the secondary roles and in the chorus and get experience on the operat--in the--on the operatic stage, singing with these more experienced people, but some of them didn’t view it this way. They felt that they should have sung the major roles, and not people that came in year after year registering for the class. So I would feel--I feel that this is one of the reasons that we probably didn’t get more student support in those years. I did, I think--I was able to get more support when I--when I did several things.  When we joined with the Speech Department, I think that was a help because other people came in and did things in the program that had never been there before. And when I was able to do the chamber works that didn’t require the big voices I was able to give then the students the major roles, and I think this helped build up the student support of the Workshop.

Q: During 1967 the National Foundation on the Arts and the Humanities was commissioned to examine the possibility of establishing a regional opera company in the Southeast. The Metropolitan Opera Association sent President Webb a questionnaire asking about facilities, talent and money or other support available. Both Pres. Webb and Mayor Roy V Martin urged the Metropolitan to establish the regional opera company in Norfolk and emphasized the Scope complex then in the later planning stages. In August, Douglas Beaton, Director of the Metropolitan Opera Association came to Norfolk for a luncheon.  What ever happened to this proposal?

A: Well, unfortunately this proposal was never followed through as far as this area is concerned. I remember attending a number of meetings involved with this particular proposal and I was involved in helping to set up some of the educational operatic aspects that would take place in this Scope complex when it came about. In fact I think it was one of the things that the fact that we were supposed to do certain things like this educationally in Scope that helped to get some funds for Scope to be constructed. But it just never has--it has never developed. I think there are a number of reasons for this.  The Metropolitan Opera Association was interested in establishing these regional opera groups and I don’t think that it was, to my knowledge, that it was ever funded. I think it amounted to just that, a proposal that was never--that was never funded. The Metropolitan Opera did have a national company that went about and did touring opera, but that organization went under because of poor business management, so as far--to my--the best of my knowledge the project was just never funded and unfortunately we never had the educational opera aspects attached to Scope that we really should have had.

Q: After your first 10 years at the college, ’53 to ’63, did you believe that the Music Department was being treated fairly by the Administration? In other words did it seem that the arts received the crumbs after all the other needs were attended to?

A: Well I think in some regards, that could--would certainly be true. I feel that the entire state of Virginia is way behind when it comes to the arts, and I think there are a number of reasons for this. It’s not all local. I think it started at the Assembly, in our General Assembly and I think it was emanating from the University of Virginia. The University of Virginia had never really developed the arts and music as a major school. And they still today have not done so. I think that this prompted the legislature to not take the arts more seriously in this state, and they did not fund them as many other states have funded the arts. Therefore I don’t think that Mr. Webb in those days when he was trying to help us really had the funds to do what he might like to have done. And I don’t think he was given the money to do what he could have done for the opera program had--had the legislature seen fit to fund him properly, and so I feel that this was one of the reasons why we got the impression that we weren’t treated fairly, together with the fact that this school has always placed its emphasis, at least up until this time, in the sciences and engineering and education, some of these schools, and has really never gotten behind the arts to really make this a cultural center and I still say that it must be done physically, it can’t be done ... in stables. You just have to have something other than stables to create a cultural center for a community.

Q: In 1962, Mr. ______ complained that the 900 dollars allotted to the band for musical instruments was insufficient for the band’s needs. President Webb took 1500 dollars from Student Activities Funds and 850 dollars from Maintenance and Operations and gave it to the Music Department for the band. Could you comment on this and, and this you partially answered before, did you believe that President Webb did realize the needs of the Music Department but was unable to meet them because of factors beyond his control.

A: Yes I think this is a true statement. I think that President Webb by and large did make an effort to support the Music Department in every way he could. And I feel that his hands were tied by just--he just wasn’t funded adequately to do what he, I think, would have done had the funds come from the state like they should have. This is just an example of how a president did see the insufficient funding for the department and tried to adjust it so we could go on and build a band which we had no mus--we just didn’t have any--any funds to buy instruments with. We couldn’t build--we couldn’t build a band that way.

Q: I wanted to ask you about something that occurred in 1964. Mr. James M Williams, the president of United Underwriters Sales Corporation of America asked President Webb if Old Dominion College might become involved in the “Peace On Earth” program. You worked up a rather elaborate proposal with several other members of the staff for a pageant for the Navy Norfolk Christmas Decorama. The capital outlay alone was 58,400 dollars and the production cost was 14,850 dollars. What ever happened to this project?
A: Well, I think you answered the question when you gave the amount of money that the project was to cost. They asked me to draw up a pageant that would be done at Christmas time in conjunction with the Navy and city cultural groups that would be centered here at the college. President Web asked me to create this pageant and to give him a dollar and figure--dollar and cents figure that would--that it would take to do the pageant. Nobody realized what this would cost, he just asked me to do it and so when I showed him what it would cost I’m sure that this is the thing that caused the project to be dropped. The money just was not available to do--and I think it could have been a very fine thing and probably could have been a yearly event had we had the funds to--to begin such a project. I think it could have definitely helped.

Q: In 1964, the Music Department prepared a lengthy memorandum proposing and justifying a Bachelor of Science degree in Music Education. Could you give me more information on how this came about? Has the program been successful and have you found it easy to work with the Education Department?

A: Yes, one of the things we felt was desperately needed at Old Dominion was the development of a meaningful music education program. This was one of the things that we had been criticized for in the community, was not having a program that really taught the students and prepared the students in the field of music for the public schools. So we took quite a bit of time and prepared a degree in music education that would go through the then Department of Education. We by and large were not in favor of having our degree go through the Education Department. We wanted to offer the Bachelor of Music Education degree. Provost Johnson at that time was not in favor of having the Music Department do this as an independent department. He wanted everything in the way of education to be funneled through the Education Department, and all of the specialties go through that one department. This was of course expedient for him and everybody else so that he could just get one degree approved and put all the concentrations under the one degree. I don’t feel that it has been completely 100 per cent successful. Although I haven’t found working with the Education Department particularly difficult, I don’t think the rapport has always been close enough. And I feel that the left hand hasn’t always known what the right hand was doing. I thou--I’ve always felt that the title of this degree is very cumbersome. You very rarely ever see this title. And we have one of the, I would say, unique titles in music education around the nation. I don’t know that I’ve ever seen it before, but we were forced to live with the title. It was not our choosing. If we would have chosen the title we would have put the degree through the Music Department and we would have called it a Bach--either a Bachelor of Music Education degree or a Bachelor of Music in Music Education, so this is something we’ve had to, again, live with. At that time the Education Department was stronger than we were, they had more teachers, they had more prestige, and again this is an example of where the Music Department was suppressed ... because I guess we were just music.

Q: On August 12th, 1964 you sent an interesting memo to the Music Department faculty, upon your appointment as Acting Chairman of the Music Department. You asked for teamwork and open, honest communication. Did you receive what you asked for?

A: Well in certain instances, yes, and in other instances, I don’t think it has ever been achieved. Music is something that is quite individually taught and people have, I suppose like in other disciplines, have their own ideas about how things should be done. I felt that the Department at the time had grown very far away from each other--people in the Department had grown quite strained, the relations one faculty member to another had gradually pulled away from each other. One was going to the left, another to the right, and I didn’t feel that the Department was working as a unit. And so when I was working with the chairmanship of the Department I was trying to bring them together so that even though they would not agree with each other they would at least be open to--they would be free to express their views without feeling that they were going to get their heads cut off or that they would be jeopardizing their promotions or--or their recommendations for raises because of their views. I’ve always--as a chairman I always tried to be respectful of the other person’s views even though they were not in agreement with my own. I think that that was one of the things I tried to bring to the Department was a free and open discussion of all views in which you did not have to feel that you would ... suffer when--when the next pay raises came along because of something you said. I--I tried to get the Department to work as democratically as possible so that the majority decision was the one we would follow. And of course I wanted everybody to feel free to say what he wanted to say and to not--I felt that a lot of things were going on behind the back of other teachers and I ... I’m ver--was very much opposed to that. If you had something to say I felt you should be able to say it right to the person’s face and I felt that things worked out much better that way. And I really tried to bring honesty, integrity and I hope a certain sense of brotherhood to the members of the faculty when I assumed Chairmanship of the Department.

Q: On September 30th, 1964 you called to the Administration’s attention the Music Department’s urgent need for more space. You pointed out that you were giving up Fine Arts #209 to the Art Department and were to receive the Maintenance Building. You referred to a severe shortage of practice rooms and to several other pressing needs of the Department. Did you receive a satisfactory response to your plea for assistance?

A: That’s a very good question and I--I wish that the Administration would have read these memos that you have just read because I feel that even today what you have just said is still true. The Department is severely short of physical requirements. We have had and still have pressing needs, physically, for this department to grow. We never receive satisfactory response from these pleas. I started them when I first became Chairman and I kept ringing them home all the time, but we never were supplied these. Promises were given but they were never carried out. I pointed out at the time when we gave up Fine Arts 209 to the Art Department - they wanted a musi--they wanted an art library there and so we gave it up because it really was a very inadequate room to rehearse a band and orchestra in, and that’s what the room was set up for. It had upside down acoustical tubs-like in the ceiling and it was a small room. We tried every means we could think of to dampen the sound in the room but it was just impossible to rehearse large groups in that room. So President Webb said, “All right, will you go over into the Armory and rehearse your band and--and chorus and orchestra” ... that would have been the old stable which we still called a barn, and this was back in 1964. And he said it would just be a-a very short time, probably a couple of years is what I was told, until we would move into the Maintenance Building which is cater cornered across the street here from the Fine Arts Building which would have made a fine rehearsal hall. So two years later when it was time for us to go into that building the government came along and said that the--Mr. Webb came back to me and said, “Well, that’s where we wanted to put you but the government is now going to give us an atomic reactor and that’s the only building we can put the atomic reactor into.” So once again the Music Department was pushed in--into the stable--back into the stable and another promise was broken to the Department. And we never received the--the space the--for practice facilities or for rehearsing facilities, to do the job that a Music Department should be doing at the University. We just never received this assistance.

Q: One question has just occurred to me that I didn’t put in here, this building that we are in at present, the Fine Arts Building: was the Music Department consulted in planning for this building and why is it become--became so quickly inadequate for the purposes of the Department?

A: This building, although it’s called a fine arts building, was really built for art, not for music and art. Music was supposed to be a temporary resident of this building. Only until the necessary facilities could be built for Music. This building really, although they tried to make it acoustically work, this building absolutely cannot work for music. The acoustical elements we have worked with for all of these years such as ductwork being connected from one--one studio to another and you teach in one studio and hear what’s going on three studios down. This is not conducive to good education. Classrooms that are improperly--I mean practice rooms that are not only inadequate in number but grossly inadequate as far as circulation goes. It’s very unhealthy for a student to stay in one of these rooms very long because the air is very foul, it’s very high temperature, and students actually come out of these practice rooms looking like they just jumped into a crick. And the--as I say, it was--it was a building that was chosen to be built, I think, because President Webb saw one like this down in Florida. It--it has very bad construction design to it, inasmuch as there’s no ladies room on the first floor, you have to go to the second floor to go to the rest room, the ladies do, there’s a rest room on the first floor for the men but not on the second floor. There are no inside corridors going upstairs. You have to go outdoors if you’re going to go upstairs and in many cases you have to outdoors if you are going to go to any other room in the building. It might have been all right for Florida but it wasn’t all right for Norfolk. And not only that but, as I pointed out before, it just never was meant for music.

Q: Why was the Opera Theatre dropped in 1964?

A: Well, it--it soon became evident that we weren’t going to be able to continue doing all the shows that we planned to do as a theatre, because of the financial problems. And so I went back to less--more infrequent productions and less productions as far as finances were concerned. So it just became evident that the best thing to do would be to not do as many shows and not carry as high a budget so we could present them.  Another reason why it stopped at that particular year is--is because I assumed the Chairmanship of the Department in ‘64-’65 and then I was going back to Indiana to finish my doctorate in ‘65-’66 and so the timing was I think right to drop the theatre part at that time.

Q: Could you discuss the Old Dominion Singers, a small select group of experienced Opera Theatre people who wished to form a professional organization under your guidance. I’ve read that the group was to donate 25% of all their receipts to the College for music scholarships, and I wondered how the Administration reacted to this proposal.

A: Okay. The Administration I think … was interested in this group of singers. They are still very actively doing opera and musicals in the community. Many of them are directing dinner theatres and participating in dinner theatres and doing opera in the new Virginia Opera company. We really did this--we really did this project so that we could be flexible and go out and let some of the people in communities hear what kind of singers we had here at the Workshop--in the Theatre at that time. One of the--oh, yes we--you have that later. Anyway, our plans were to function as a--a sort of a public relations organization for the University and for opera here and to any--and to sma--probably charge a small fee for civic groups that could afford it and then give back to the University 25% of the receipts so that we could have music scholarships for that because in those days we just didn’t have money for music scholarships. So the Administration was receptive to it but the organization didn’t stay together too long, I think primarily because of my work load, not being able to work with them enough and of course all of these people were scattered everywhere. Most of them weren’t on the campus, they were off campus and they had other commitments to do. And some of them became interested in community music projects that--that interfered with their practicing and so forth so the group just did not stay together too many years.

Q: You stated that the Old Dominion Singers could eventually become the foundation for a large professional Norfolk civic opera company. Why did this not occur?

A: As I said before, I think largely because of my time and the fact that they didn’t remain together too long. I still feel that they could have--that this could have been the nucleus of such an organization and to prove this you can see it when you see how many of these people are today the nucleus for the Virgin--the professional Virginia Opera company that’s functioning now in Norfolk, so in a way they did become the nucleus of a Norfolk civic opera company. Not under my tutorship but certainly under professional outside … directors.

Q: Could you discuss the trip the Old Dominion Singers made to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. I believe this was originally Dr. Pliska’s idea.

A: Yes. Dr. Pliska at that time was the head of the Continuing Education Department and they--they taught classes down at Gua--Guantanamo Bay. During one of his trips down there he mentioned the fact that we had a group of singers here on the campus that did lighter show-type music and some opera work and they were interested in having us come down there and present a show to the--the personnel--the Marine and Navy personnel that was assigned then at Guantanamo Bay. And he arranged this with the Navy Department that flew us down there and we took our scenery and our props and our costumes and we did a show down there that was highly successful.

Q: Did the Old Dominion Singers sing at any other U.S. overseas installation?

A: No, this was the only overseas performance that we gave.

Q: In May of 1965 you submitted a detailed memorandum to Mr. Hugh H. Sisson, Jr., Director of Administration in regard to the requirements a new recital hall must meet. I would like you to comment on this plan and how it was received by the Administration, and we pretty much already discussed why you’re still in the Stable in 1975.

[Pause]

A: Yes ... the Administration, I don’t know just why, they--they did ask me to draw up what the requirements of a recital hall would be and I did a great deal of research on this and the details of my report, I think, bear up the fact that if this had been done in 1965 there is no question in my mind but what the Music Department today would--would be—would--would have developed into a very large significant, cultural center. It was just again one of those things in which you do these things many times as an administrator but you--you--they never--they never follow through with them from a higher echelon and that is exactly what happened. What came out of it was the offer to put the Stable into a very small structure that would have been grossly inadequate even for rehearsal purposes. And that’s all we were offered. The- -the- -again, the--this proposal was never really put up high enough in the scheme of things to be funded by the state.  It wou- -if it would have been placed up high enough I feel we would have had a recital hall. I feel that if it would have been placed up high enough we’d ‘a had a--a real fine cultural center at this school years ago. But we never had the top administration that would take this cultural artistic road. They always followed the--the road of “more students would be taking the other and so let’s go into the science and the arts” and of course that did serve the community. But we feel that the--the arts could have served the community more effectively too, had we had the facilities to do so. I have always preached this from the very outset, that we would never be able to develop significantly here at Old Dominion until such time as the administration would put--would make the outlet that would take--the commitment it would take to build a structure that would attract the proper kind of people to come here for the arts. And I--this has certainly been borne out over all the years, because we have certainly had first class teaching at this university. And we’ve had some first class music programs at this university. But you can’t build a significant center without the physical structure to do so. The communi--the administration has not always agreed with me on that. They have felt that students would come here regardless of what it looked like, and I have always disagreed with that. And I think that the number of years I’ve been here have proven this to be significan--significantly true. And we still today, the recital hall that we have, we had I should say, was in the second floor of the now the present library for the university. It was again a--it was a makeshift affair. There were posts all over the room. You couldn’t get more 200 or 250 people in there on chairs that rattled around. The stage was very low, you couldn’t even play up on there many--many violinists, you’d hit the ceiling. The acoustical element of the--of the hall was terrible because there was--all around the hall there were on the outside faculty--the rooms for the faculty were there and you couldn’t go in and practice you’d disturb the people who were trying to be in their rooms. You couldn’t get the necessary space on the stage to put the band and to perform. You had to do just recital work in there and it was grossly inadequate. The only way we ever got a recital hall at this institution as I said before was through the back door  ... at a technical institute.

Q: In October of 1965 the Bachelor of Science in Music degree was approved in addition to the Bachelor of Arts degree. Why was this done?

A: Well again I pushed the fact that we needed to have a degree for people who wanted to perform in music and not go into just teaching. Also we took the more academic degree--concentrations of music history and composition and put them into the Bachelor of Arts degree where they more properly would belong. We felt this would offer more opportunity for people to get into the curriculum that they desired. Everything before was put under the Bachelor of Arts degree and that’s a h--that’s a very unlikely degree for a performer to have. And even a Bachelor of Science in Music degree is a very cumbersome title for somebody who is a performer in music. But they would not give us that degree at the time, and the faculty I think by and large felt that they ought to go with the Bachelor of Science in Music degree because they felt it was stronger academically. That was the reason that we made the switch.

Q: Could you discuss the problems you had as department chairman in trying to secure air conditioning for the Fine Arts Building. Is it true that no classes were held in the building during the summer of 1967 because of the absence of air conditioning?

A: Yes, this is true. President Webb ordered this that the classes not be held in there. He has--he was always aware of the problem with this building as far as circulation and air conditioning was concerned … and he tried to rectify it some by putting--later on putting some individual air conditioning in some of the rooms. We had a--a very difficult time getting these air conditioners put in. The idea of this building when it was originally constructed was that the building was not to be used in the summer until it was adequately air-conditioned. That was something that the architect--statement he made because it just a very, very uncomfortable place to be in the summertime. Every year, not only myself but other department chairmen that used this building, complained about the fact that this building was just improperly ventilated and it--on top of the pri--top priority should be given to air conditioning this building. And President Webb actually did put this in a number of years to the legislature but they always kept taking it out and so I think that President Webb tried to get this building air conditioned a number of times but the legislature never gra--in those days I think the ru-the thumb ‘o rule was that you could air condition books but you couldn’t air condition people.

Q: In 1966 you appealed urgently to the administration for the retention of Miss Marianne Tinkum for the coming year. Apparently her position had been removed and you considered her to be exceptionally well prepared and a genuine asset to the Department. Were you able to retain her?

A: No, we lost this girl because the administration was not able to establish a position for her in the Department. She came here on a one-year leave-of-absence understanding and ... it really wasn’t made perfectly clear at the time that it was for just one year, but it turned out that that’s what it was and I--she was a fine teacher and she was well prepared for her work, but I was not able to retain her just because they could not get a--an academic position established for her to teach in.

[End of Tape]

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