ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
with
CHARLES L. KAUFMAN

[April 4, 1975]
Listen to Interview

Sweeney: Today I am pleased to be interviewing Mr. Charles L. Kaufman, who served as a member of the Advisory Board of the Norfolk Division of the College of William and Mary from 1947 to 1962.

First of all, could you tell me, Mr. Kaufman, how it was that you came to serve on the President's, rather Director Lewis Webb's Advisory Committee in 1947?

Kaufman: Mr. Webb concluded that it would be a very desirable and helpful thing if there was a local group who served in an advisory capacity to the Norfolk Division of William and Mary College. He invited me, along with others, to become members of that group.

Sweeney: What role did you see the committee playing in its relationship to college policy? Did you have any contact with the Board of Visitors of the College of William and Mary?

Kaufman: In my judgment, the committee could be helpful to the local division by reason of its being composed of men who were very much interested in our community. Interested in solving the social and educational problems. One of the needs that existed at that time was for a school of higher education that would be available to boys and girls who couldn't afford the luxury of going away to school. So it seemed to me that the committee could be helpful in promoting the aims and objectives of the Norfolk Division of William and Mary College.

We were close of course, geographically to this school. We were much closer to it from other standpoints by reason of being local citizens interested in its welfare and interested particularly in the welfare of the citizens who comprised the community.

We had relatively little contact with the members of the Board of Visitors of [William and Mary] College. At or about the time that the committee came into existence, I think that Mr. Roy Charles was one of the members of the Board of Visitors. He was a Norfolk man and we asked him to serve on our local advisory board. He did so, as he was very much interested. But I would say our contacts with, and influence with the Board of Visitors as a whole was relatively limited. Of course there were some of us who also knew Mr. Chandler, who was then the president, I think, of William and Mary College. We were able, through him, to get help for the local division. Our principal activity and principal help were confined to the local school, the Norfolk Division.

Sweeney: Could you give me some information on that first advisory board? Do you remember what members were the most dominant and if it was a harmonious group?

Kaufman: I'll answer the last part of your question first by saying it was one of the most harmonious groups that I have ever been privileged to be a member of. We were all motivated in the same kind of way. Our interest was

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exclusively to help the local college and the local division, and particularly to broaden its service and improve its service to our community.

Among those who were very, very active at the time on the local advisory board were John Alfriend, E.T. Gresham, Nicholas Wright, Henry H. George III who was then, I think, the city manager of Norfolk (I know he was once city manager and I believe it was at that particular time), Judge Lawrence W. Iansen of Portsmouth who is now the presiding judge of the Supreme Court for the State of Virginia, Abner S. Pope, who was then president of the Seaboard Citizens National Bank, Crawford Rogers, who was head of the Norfolk Shipbuilding and Drydock Company. I make some reference to the positions these men occupied in order to indicate that they were all men who occupied pretty high positions in the community, because in addition to the big jobs they held, they were very active, generally, in community affairs. John Twohy II, may have been then, at any rate was at one time a member of the city council in Norfolk. J. Hogue Tyler III was also active and occupied a high office in the Seaboard Citizens National Bank. J.J. Brubaker was Superintendent of Public Schools in Norfolk. A.B. Clark was a minister of the First Methodist Church of Warwick, Virginia. Edward H. Jones of Norfolk, was also a minister of one of our local churches-mayhave been the Presbyterian Church, I'm not sure. Malcolm H. Stern was a rabbi of one of the Jewish congregations of the city. Frank Batten was publisher and chief executive officer of the newspaper corporation. I also was a member.

Sweeney: At a meeting on the 27th of May in 1948, you offered to talk to an Admiral Ainsworth to see why the Navy had not released a surplus building to the division. Then, notification of the release of the building came the next day. Could you provide more information on this?

Kaufman: Yes, but before dealing with that, I'm going back to the prior question for a bit because, while they may not have been members of the original group, they subsequently became members of the committee and were extremely active in connection with the Norfolk Division of William and Mary College.

The name of one whom I omitted before and subsequently became very active was W. Peyton May. Another was Roy Charles and then later on Colgate Darden.

With respect to your question, I have very little recollection of the facts relating to the question that you just asked. I know there was a building the Norfolk Division wanted and needed and some of us were fairly close to Admiral Ainsworth, who was the commandant of the naval base here in Norfolk. He was always most cooperative and I think perhaps that by giving him just a call, we were able to get the thing accomplished-that is, get the use of the building.

Sweeney: Could you discuss the part you played in organizing the Norfolk Division of the College of William and Mary Foundation? What was the relationship between the Advisory Board and the Educational Foundation?

Kaufman: It became obvious that as we proceeded that in order for the college to

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function as fully and as effectively as it might, it needed some financial help with respect to certain things. It seemed desirable, for one thing, to be able to provide supplements to teachers in order to enable the Norfolk Division to get better faculty members than it could otherwise get. There were other things for which money was needed. For example, one important thing was a library for which we raised a substantial amount of money. There were other activities of that character that seemed to be highly important from the standpoint of the Norfolk Division.

If we raised money that had to go to the state because William and Mary was a state-aided institution, it was difficult to get that money channeled. In other words it required a great deal of red tape. So that in order to enable us to command the use of that money in ways that we thought were desirable, it was important to have a separate institution. So the foundation was organized for the purpose largely of raising money that was needed in the various facets of the Norfolk Division's activities.

As the chairman of the Advisory Board at the time, I think I was made chairman at the time it was organized and served as such during the entire period that I was a member of it. I naturally assumed responsibility for organizing what we called the Norfolk Division of the College of William and Mary Foundation. We undertook this from time to time to raise money. It is in existence today and, I think, performing a useful and perhaps vital service to the Old Dominion University, previously the Norfolk Division of the College of William and Mary.

Sweeney: Were the members of the Advisory Board able to devote a sufficient amount of time and attention to the college?

Kaufman: Yes, I think they were able to and I think they did by and large. Of course there were some who devoted a great deal more time and effort than others. But they could, and I think they did, perform all the functions and discharge all the responsibilities that rested upon them. I think they did this in a fairly satisfactory manner.

Sweeney: Were you satisfied with Dr. Lewis Webb's administration of the college's affairs?

Kaufman: I, and I think the same thing is true of practically every member of the group, was extremely satisfied with Lewis Webb's administration. He was extremely interested. What he may have lacked from the standpoint of educational background, he made up certainly through other fine attributes. He was extremely interested, extremely conscientious and willing to make any sacrifice in the world that was necessary to promote the interests of the school.

All of us, I would say, were well satisfied with what Lewis Webb did in furthering the school. As I say, in considering the status of the school and the nature of its functions and activities at that time, he had all the qualities that were essential.

Sweeney: In 1958, when the college faced a budgetary crisis it was agreed that

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the Advisory Board members should talk to the legislators and help secure favorable publicity for the college. Could you recall any involvement you might have had with the members of the legislature or the press?

Kaufman: I can recall, generally, I had a considerable amount of involvement. By involvement I mean conversations from time to time with members of the legislature, and others I thought could be helpful in enabling the local division to get the money needed for its proper functioning. I, on occasion, went before the legislature in Richmond to make an appeal on behalf of the Norfolk Division.

When committees came to Norfolk for the purpose of seeing what the Division was doing, I appeared on a number of occasions, Idon't recall the exact number, appealing as effectively as I could on behalf of the Norfolk Division for the purpose of obtaining a larger measure of financial support, which was certainly needed for the proper functioning of the Norfolk Division, which was growing at a fairly rapid rate.

Sweeney: Do you believe that the Tidewater delegation to the General Assembly in the late 40's and early 50's worked hard enough for the college?

Kaufman: I think they worked hard, and I think they worked effectively. We were never able to get at that time the money we thought we reasonably needed. It's true there are plenty of other institutions of like nature in the same boat, and none of them got everything they wanted. I think the members of the legislature from the Tidewater Community were very much interested in and did everything they reasonably could to promote the interests of the college.

Sweeney: In 1958 you offered a resolution to the Board to allow you and Mr. Frank Batten to buy and sell securities for the Educational Foundation. Could you provide more information on this?

Kaufman: That resolution was designed principally to enable us to sell securities. I don't recall that we ever bought any. In connection with our efforts to raise money for the Norfolk Division, or really for the Foundation for the benefit of the Division, we got securities as gifts. Our policy was to convert those securities into money as soon as we could so as to avoid anything in the way of risk of depreciation with respect to them. That was simply designed to enable us to sell such securities as we got from time to time as gifts to the Foundation so they can be converted into money.

Sweeney: The closing of the Norfolk public junior and senior high schools led to the opening on campus of a school for the faculty children with volunteer teachers from the faculty teaching forty-two children, back in 1958. Did the Advisory Board play a role in trying to get the schools reopened? How did the members react to the opening of a special school on campus?

Kaufman: There were certain members of the Advisory Board who played a very, very active, and I might even say leading role in trying to get the Norfolk schools reopened after they were closed. Several of us, I

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would say, took up the cudgels and attempted to carry the battle forward. It was a very mean battle because it meant arguing very bitterly with some of our friends who were on the council at the time.

We felt very strongly that the closing of the schools was a big mistake and we felt that the mistake should be remedied just as quickly as possible. We organized a group of outstanding Norfolk citizens who petitioned the council to get the schools reopened as soon as possible, to do what had to be done in order to get them reopened.

The members of the committee naturally were sympathetic with and fully supported the notion that a special school should be opened on the campus for the benefit of children of the faculty who were denied the possibility of attending a public school. We were in full support of it, and tried to bridge the gap, the chasm that had been created by reason of what we thought was improvident and imprudent action on the part of the council in closing the schools.

Sweeney: How did the Advisory Board members feel about the admission of black students in 1959? Three applied that year but were not accepted.

Kaufman: I can't recall any occasion on which there were any extensive discussions about the admission of black students. I think all of them were perfectly willing to admit black students who were qualified for admission. I think ultimately there were some black students admitted.

By reason of there being another school in the city that was administering to the needs of black students before the days of integration, manifestly, there wasn't the same need and the same pressure on the part of black students to come to the Norfolk Division. They were very happy and well taken care of at the school which was then a part of Virginia State, I think it was called, College, now Norfolk State University.

Sweeney: Could you tell me about the Advisory Board's interest in securing special rates for students crossing the Elizabeth River and the Chesapeake Bay?

Kaufman: We were interested, naturally, in doing everything that we could that would help the students who were coming from places across the river. One of the great advantages that the school offered was to enable the students to live in their own homes while attending the college. We attempted to get special rates, it would be helpful to them, in crossing the Elizabeth River and the Chesapeake Bay.

Sweeney: In 1960 the William and Mary Board of Visitors recommended that the college change its name and the name, Norfolk College of William and Mary, was chosen by the Advisory Board. Could you tell me more about this decision?

Kaufman: I really know very little about that decision because it was made by the Board of Visitors of William and Mary, of which I was not a member. I was not privy to their discussions. I know that they wanted to keep an interest in the Norfolk Division. They didn't want to see it completely divorced and become a completely separate child. My assumption is that they made that decision trying to appease those who favored the divorce,

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the establishment of the Norfolk Division as a separate institution.

Sweeney: Could you recall your part in settling the question of how much of the estate of Mrs. Margaret Seeley would go to the college?

Kaufman: No, I have no recollection of that. I do recall that she gave the college a certain amount of her estate in her will, but I don't have any recollection of the details.

Sweeney: How did the Advisory Board react to the State Council of Higher Education's plan in 1961 to break up the William and Mary system? How did you personally feel about the college becoming independent?

Kaufman: Well, I was one of the majority of the people who were intimately acquainted with the Norfolk Division and its activities, who was completely in favor of establishing it as an independent school. We thought that as an independent school it could better meet the needs of the community. That it would grow faster, that it would receive more in the way of financial help from the Virginia legislature, and there were other ways in which it would be improved so that its usefulness to the community would be enhanced.

Sweeney: Did the Advisory Board suggest members for the new Board of Visitors, and did President Webb intend to make use of the members of the Advisory Board in any capacity after the college became independent?

Kaufman: So far as I can recall the Advisory Board did not make any suggestions or do anything with respect to the selection of the membership for the new Board of Visitors. So far as I know, after it became an independent college with its own Board of Visitors there wasn't any real need for the members of the Advisory Board.

There continued, however, to be a great need for the Foundation, which was raising money and it was certainly hoped that that would not be in any way adversely affected, and in fact I don't think it was in any way adversely affected. The Foundation continued to serve Old Dominion in approximately the same fashion that it had served the Norfolk Division prior to the establishment of the division as an independent college.

Sweeney: Lastly, there are three short questions which are related. Could you assess your fifteen years of service on the Advisory Board? What gave you the most satisfaction and the most frustration? Have you kept in contact with the development of the college since 1962?

Kaufman: I believe that the Advisory Board was helpful to the Norfolk Division both from the standpoint of the Division itself and from the standpoint of the community for which it was designed to serve. I think certainly the money we raised from time to time was helpful and beyond that I think it was extremely desirable to have a close relationship between the Division and the Norfolk community. I think that the people who served on the Advisory Board provided the liaison that was necessary between the Norfolk Division and the community at large. All of us were extremely interested. I once made the observation, I think it was when the library out there was being dedicated,

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that the Advisory Board was the group that had more pride and less power than any group I ever knew of. As I say, we really didn't have any power whatsoever. We were all, though, extremely interested in it and extremely anxious to do everything we could in furtherance of its usefulness.

The thing gave me the most satisfaction, I think, was the realization that through the Norfolk Division, and now later through Old Dominion University, we were giving many boys and girls of the community the opportunity to obtain the benefit of higher education, which would otherwise have been denied them. They came from families that could not afford to send them to schools away from home. By having the college in the community, of course they could live at home, and in many instances get part-time work.

I'm sure of one thing beyond all else. That is, that most of the boys and girls who have been educated at the local college have had an opportunity for higher education that they wouldn't otherwise have had. I think all of us derived the most satisfaction from that.

On the frustration side, I would say naturally we were always somewhat concerned about the financial needs of the college. We may have suffered something in the way of frustration from not getting as much money and help from the state that we thought the college needed and reasonably deserved. But there have been improvements on that. As I say, other institutions of a like nature have suffered from the same thing. Perhaps not to the same degree, or at least we didn't feel they were suffering to the same degree as we did. We felt we weren't getting as much help as we rightfully deserved even on a comparative basis.

I have kept in contact with the development of the college into a University and the activities of the University. I have not lost interest in the institution at all. It's performing an extremely useful service to our community. So long as I live and breathe, I think I will continue my interest.

Sweeney: Thank you very much, Mr. Kaufman.