Stewart: Today we’re talking with Margaret Phillips, who was for many years a teacher at Old Dominion, principally in the field of mathematics. Ms. Phillips, I wonder if you could tell us something about your background before you came to what is now ODU, during the middle of WWII?

Phillips: I was a product of the Depression years. I managed to get my bachelor's degree at Marshall College then, now Marshall University. I had a double major in mathematics and also in physical sciences. When I came out of school there were six hundred applicants for one position in teaching in Huntington, West Virginia and needless to say I did not get it. I did get a school -- public school in the mining area of West Virginia at Logan. And I was in the Logan public schools for nine years. And then I had an opportunity to go to Elon College in North Carolina. I was there one year and during that year I was married. My husband was located in Norfolk, so I came to Norfolk. And he had told me that there was a college here in Norfolk; so, when I came up in the spring, I came out to the campus to put my name on the list. And then the summer of 1943, I taught here in the Physics Department. While I was teaching Physics, Mr. Webb called me one day and said that the dean from William and Mary had contacted him and as much as I knew I was here just for the summer. And they said they needed physics teachers up there desperately for their ASTP [Army Specialized Training Program] program. So, I went from here to William and Mary and I was there for two sessions. As a matter of fact, you were given four-month contracts because this was strictly government work. It was for the military and they didn't know when they would be called out; and everything was in four-month segments. So I finished two segments there and then all of them were pulled out. The war situation was getting pretty bad at that time.

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I came back to Norfolk and in those days we just plain didn't have telephones either; and I just happened to run into Mr. Webb downtown and he asked what I was doing. And somebody that was teaching night school, a military officer, had been called to active duty. So I finished out the term for him in night school. On top of that, I had a call from one of my former associates at William and Mary who had gone on to the University of Virginia (UVA) in government research work and there was a dire need at the University of Virginia for physics [teachers]. So, I moved on to the University of Virginia in July. And again, that was Navy B-5 and B-12 programs. And I taught both math and physics up there. Again, that was in four-month segments. And I was up there for eight months. So I came back to Norfolk and strange as it may seem, I met Mr. Webb downtown another time. [both laugh] And he asked what I was doing and if I would put in an application to come here in the fall on a downright contractual basis. The others had been very temporary, which I understood. I was set up to come here in the fall. But, in the summer, Mr. Klinefelter came to see me; again no telephone. He had to make a personal call; and he had had a chance to go with the city school system; but they would not release him here (ODU) until he got someone to take his classes. [both laugh] So, I filled in that summer for him and I came on permanently then in 1945. And I continued from then until the present time.

Stewart: Is there anything else you can recall from the war years, in the way of inconveniences? You talked about not having telephones. What other kinds of inconveniences did you have to put up with?

Phillips: Well, food rationing was one thing. And, in fact, so many things were rationed. And when you didn't know the city and you didn’t how to find things and get around, that made it rather difficult. And the housing situation was very tight. There was gasoline rationing, too. And streetcars were the main mode of transportation.

Stewart: Did you fare well on the streetcars? Or did you have problems with those?

Phillips: I knew how to get around on the streetcars, but I had to travel on the Naval Base car to get out to Old Dominion and they were just packed. You’d have car after car would pass you and wouldn't even stop to pick you up. That was the main inconvenience.

Stewart: Was there any special attitude on campus or even off campus that you noticed at that time? Was there a kind of excitement about Norfolk?

Phillips: No, I wouldn't say so. The students that we had-- Now when I first came here enrollment was relatively low and the students we had still had the threat of the draft over them and they were trying to stay in college. And they were all business. Transportation was difficult with them. By the time they came by ferry from the Newport

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News side, and I think that was a half hour, if I'm not mistaken; then they had the streetcar ride from there down here, and then the same thing in reverse in the afternoon. Most of them that I dealt with were engineering students and they had a very rigid schedule, very time consuming schedule. And they just didn't have enough [time]. Of course, the ones from that side and the ones from Portsmouth weren't particularly interested in Norfolk as such.

Stewart: They didn’t have much time for fun?

Phillips: No, definitely not!

Stewart: Well, we know how you became an instructor in mathematics. What was the situation then? You said you came in as a physics instructor actually for engineering students? How did we ever end up with a mathematics department?

Phillips: Oh no, definitely not. I'm not real sure of the exact date. It was probably around 1955. I could check that it was around 1955. We were a part of the school of engineering.

Stewart: I see. Were students who weren't engineers required to take any mathematics in those days?

Phillips: The liberal arts students had to fulfill a requirement of either mathematics or philosophy-- six hours, I think it was. And the majority of the liberal arts students took philosophy up until 1957 with Sputnik and then the rules were changed that they absolutely had to take some math. Well in those days we gave so many of the two-year certificates and they had to have some math— show some mathematics.

Stewart: Was there any adverse reaction to this idea of having the mathematics requirement?

Phillips: Well, liberal arts students didn't like that idea. I’ll grant you that.

Stewart: What about the faculty?

Phillips: I don't recall any particular reaction that way. It certainly increased our loads.

Stewart: Perhaps you could trace some of the physical changes that you might have recorded in your mind? As far as this campus is concerned, obviously, it is quite a bit different than it was in 1943 when you first saw it.

Phillips: Well, at that time, we had precisely two buildings-- what was the old Larchmont Elementary School and what is now the Old Administration Building.

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Stewart: Did they not have some barrack buildings?

Phillips: Not when I first came.

Stewart: Not when you first came. They had not built them?

Phillips: Now they came sort of at the end of the war and were put up with the surplus from out here at the naval base. But at the very beginning, we did not have those. Then, we had the four Quonset huts along there and then later they put the two buildings – they were built at right angles to Hampton Boulevard and one of them was for history and English primarily and political science, and the other was more electronics radio [vocational subjects] in those days.

Stewart: There must have been a fairly significant increase in students then after the war.

Phillips: Yes, very much so. But, now those Quonset huts were heated with a coal-burning stove. Since somebody had to come in right in the middle of class to shake down the ashes and pour in the coal. [laughing] And I was auditing a music appreciation course at the moment and you can just imagine listening to a Mozart trio and having it interrupted by that. [laughing] Now one of the Quonset huts they had for an art studio-- a portion of it was an art studio and a portion of one of them was for publications. And then they had music in one of them. I don’t recall what. They also took general classes in there.

Stewart: Were there any other physical characteristics that you could remember about the place? Any stories about those buildings?

Phillips: Well, now I taught primarily in the old Larchmont School building and the physics department was in the basement and the chemistry department was right over us. I remember very distinctly how many times the pipes leaked up in the chemistry department and came through into the physics department. [laughing] And I remember very distinctly we were working experiments in the back room there when, it was in the summer, all of the sudden, right on all of the equipment, the students' notebooks and everything, here came this deluge! And I went upstairs to see, and I wasn't in the best of humor I’ll admit, and they had let the troughs and their sinks run over. And they were going around and hadn't even bothered to turn off the water. So, when they built what was called the new Science Building, and they were asking different ones for a little input for the new building and when they asked me what I wanted most, I said, "not to be under the chemistry department!" [laughing]

Stewart: I can see that point! Well obviously the campus over the years— well you can see how many years 20 or 30-- 

Phillips: Now in that building also was Bud's. You’ve heard of Bud’s. Now that was his first section and now that was in the basement just in one— just one room. And he had it boarded up and the books. It was the bookstore also. The books were back there and they had a lunch counter-- very limited lunch counter. And he also had

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sleeping facilities- minimum in one section.

Stewart: And this was the Larchmont School building? And then when they moved it--

Phillips: That's right. And then when it was moved next, over to what is now considered the Old Administration Building.

Stewart: Yeah and then the whole operation was later moved across the pathway to the annex of the extension of the Science Building in the '6Os.

Phillips: Not the whole operation! The bookstore never went over there. The cafeteria went over there. But even the cafeteria didn't provide, shall we say, the lounging facilities or where the students gathered between classes and that type of thing, such as they did back at Bud's. They had a television back there in the very early days.

Stewart: Well, there must have been a little bit of campus life evolved in those years after the war then, say there’s not much time for fun during the war; but, apparently students—

Phillips: They had sororities and fraternities; more fraternities I believe than sororities.

Stewart: But the students were evolving some kind of a social life through those years. Well obviously, the campus has changed considerably. It is very interesting to hear your accounting of what it was like during and after the war. Could you tell us something about departmental, university, social— the school affairs that you were involved with? Any bones of contention that you might recall, issues that arose that you were interesting to you or that you participated in?

Phillips: Now this may not be answering your question directly; but, when we were a small school, we were very much interested in what other people were doing. It didn't make any difference if you were a history teacher; we were interested in you as a person. When Dr. Vogan came here, he started these annual music productions and all of us pitched in and helped. We were all on the committee; there was no argument about it. Some of us handled the tickets. I had the props for two or three years and that type of thing. There was a lot of running around and going to the rehearsals. And we were very much involved. And then too, in the early days of television, when the local station just got going, they wanted the Norfolk division, not a college then by any means, to have a better public image. We put on a series of science shows every week and different ones of the faculty would put on a half-hour lecture, usually to emphasize demonstrations of some type, something to be of interest. And different ones in the faculty would go down with you and be the cheering section for you and give you support.

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Stewart: Camaraderie.

Phillips: That’s right! And we’ve lost that.

Stewart: Oh yes.

Phillips: I don’t know if you’ve heard of the science shows or not.

Stewart: No I hadn’t. That’s very interesting. Maybe you had better elaborate on that whole business of having a small faculty and helping each other out? Can you think of any other instances where that would be the case? Did the faculty have more of a social life together?

Phillips: Well, of course, social life was limited to a certain extent. As far as the faculty was concerned, there was no faculty-wide organization at that time. But the president had the faculty reception at the beginning of the year. And the year I joined, there were exactly four of us that were hired that year, so we made twenty. There were twenty at the reception that year and it was on a Sunday afternoon in the library, over in the— at that time that was in the south wing of what’s now the Old Administration Building on the first floor. And also, for several years, they had the Board of Visitors that came regularly for that occasion. Then there was a faculty picnic in the spring, all of us together, and one year, weather permitting, it would be at President Webb's home on the water. And the next year, it would be on Mr. White’s, that was up there on the water also -- Edgewater. We shifted from one place to the other. And then we got a little _______ sometimes. I don’t remember why, but one year we had it on the campus, but it was decided that it was not nearly as nice as being down on the water.

Stewart: Did the faculty generally support the student activities?

Phillips: Yes. In the early '50s, I think it was decided that we -- the faculty ought to have some type of social event and invite the students. Of course, there weren't so many students then! And we'd put on a skit and again everyone had a part. Stan Pliska had just came here and let’s see, we had a typical class scene taking off the way students acted. And I can remember his coming in with his Army fatigues and saying something about he was late. And that was the year that the Missouri was stuck out there.

Stewart: Had run aground. Yes.

Phillips: And he was out there helping them get—[laughing] And when I turned around to sit down, somebody had put a dead cat in my chair! That was Virginia Bagley spirit at that time. That created quite a stir! Then, the next— what was it, the same year the students decided they would return the affair and they would take off the faculty so they had this skit taking off various members of the faculty. And I won’t tell which ones they took off, but it was hilarious! I guess that was the best time that we had between students and faculty.

Stewart: Just turning a little bit away from the social, did you have any ideas or any points of view regarding some of the changes that have taken place institutionally here, as far as your department or school is concerned?

Phillips: Well, I tell you what I was interested in, was getting rid of Saturday classes. Classes met either Monday, Wednesday, and Friday or Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday. They were all one-hour classes period. Now they may have been fifty minutes, but what I mean is we didn’t have this hour and a half bit on Tuesday and Thursday, even in the summertime. And to get a group in there, well in the summer the same class met six days a week— doubled up same as we don now. But to get a group together, in this recreation-oriented city, on Saturday was terrible. So, we had faculty meetings regularly and I asked if

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there was any way we could get out of the Saturday classes and Mr. Webb would say, "Well, I'm sorry but things have already gone to press we can't do anything about it this year." So finally, one year, during the first meeting in September, I brought up the Saturday classes and that year they took action and we got rid of the Saturday classes. Now I think, to me, that was an accomplishment and I think everybody was amazed when you talk about Saturday classes. But then they figured out how could we get the time in and not come on Saturdays. That's when we went to the full hour because we had been meeting fifty minutes; so, ten minutes extra, five days a week, made an extra fifty minutes that accounted for Saturday.

Stewart: They developed the elaborate schedule there where classes didn't meet every day, the same hour.

Phillips: Yes. That was later. Uh-huh. That was somewhat later. That was Dean Peele's innovation.

Stewart: Is that right?

Phillips: [Inaudible] four-year institution. I don’t remember exactly, but that was later than we’d been talking about.

Stewart: Well, you obviously had a major role in that change. Were there any other contributions or things that you were involved with, as far as the way this institution was run?

Phillips: I can't say that I had any particular role in it; however, you may or may not know I was acting chairman of the Department of Mathematics.

Stewart: That’s what I was wondering about.

Phillips: That was a combination of circumstances.

Stewart: Was this just after it was formed as a department or was it before?

Phillips: No. No. That occurred in 1965. When we first had a department of mathematics; at that time, you could not get PhDs in mathematics. They just weren't available. And they had several people who were very capable; but they did not have this PhD. So we finally got this gentleman who had come out of retirement. He had retired because of a matter of health and he thought his health was better. That was the first PhD, Dr. Baron; I don't think he's even listed in any of our catalogs. He came in the fall of '64 and he had hired all of these people for the following year. He wanted to go to Florida for the summer and he took care of all the summer school details before he left. And he said, "Now, if a certain contract doesn't come back in, you fill it in the best you can." He left me, more or less, in charge of the department for just the month and I was keeping in touch with him very regularly. Well, he had a heart attack and died about August 15th. And it was so close to the opening of school and the market was tight; there was no way they could get a PhD in here and they'd want to make a selection quickly for a department chairman. So, they asked if I would take it until Christmas and I ended up -- it was two years before we got a replacement.

Stewart: So you had some experience, then, with some the administrative end of things?

Phillips: That's right. And that was a time when we were expanding so

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much and it was so difficult to get people. Of course, we were getting people with Master's degrees, which was all right. We'd get an occasional one with a PhD but we couldn't hold them very long.

Stewart: Could you tell me something about some of the people who taught with you over the years in mathematics, particularly the ones, maybe, you were friends with or close to?

Phillips: Well, I was really closer to Mr. Webb when I was working in physics. You see physics was his love. And he helped me a great deal when I was teaching physics in the laboratory and we worked together in physics. As a matter of fact, this last year, he asked me to come back and work with him in physics lab.

Stewart: Is that right?

Phillips: Just this past year. You probably didn’t know that. But I went back into physics for just for one semester.

Stewart: Were you happy with doing that?

Phillips: Yes. I always did like physics. Now another thing we used to do in physics— the grade school over in Larchmont—one of the-- I guess it was third grade teacher would ask us if they could bring their children over for a physics demonstration. And I’ve done those. I did those two or three years. Of course, with the third-graders, they like action and we'd set things up that were on a spectacular side. Then when they went back [to school], they had to write a thank-you note and also draw impressions of what they had seen. And I still have that packet of pictures because it’s just hilariously funny what attracted their attention and how they went about expressing it.

Stewart: In addition to Mr. Webb, did you know any of the other faculty very well?

Phillips: Well, I worked with Mr. White. He was the head of the Engineering Department. And then Dr. Bunyon came, [it was] always a very pleasant relationship with him. And Mr. Hackfield.

Stewart: Across the campus, aside from math and physics, were there any faculty you were close to or that you worked with?

Phillips: Well, Sherwood. Always. And the Biology Department changed a great deal. There was not so much continuity there. There was Bill Myer who is still over in the Chemistry Department. And I’ve had quite of few of the faculty I have had as students.

Stewart: Who might be some of those?

Phillips: Start with Dr. Charles Bell, Dr. Raymond Kirby, Dr. Wilkie Chason,

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and Thornton and Hobbs, and Alice Deal over in the School of Nursing, and Breed Love who left us a couple of years ago; he’s in the school of Engineering; and Faulkner who’s over in the Technical Institute, Don Lobel; he left us this last year, another PhD; and Dr. Pritchard in physics. Robert Napper is the most recent one; he’s in computing science now. I had him just several years ago; and then Joyce Webb, who was with us in the Math Department for six or seven years. She was one of our math majors. Now I guess she was the only math major that came back in the Department. She was hired by Dr. Rutledge. I remember when she came back. In fact, she contacted me to intercede for her with Dr. Rutledge. And he, in turn, came in too -- for my views on the subject.

Stewart: So were there -- are there some other students who went on to other places that you recall?

Phillips: Well, there’s John Carlson.

Stewart: I know John Carlson at the University of Virginia. Right?

Phillips: Yes. Well, he was one of my students. He’s at Georgia Tech, I believe. Now there was in the early years, when they came back from the war, there was, of course those boys were a little bit older. They weren’t just fresh out of high school. This student came in one day and said that he had wanted to be an athletic director; but, because of an injury from war service in Germany, he realized that that just wasn't at all practical and out of all of those subjects, as a result of my teaching, he wanted to go into physics. So, he finished physics and came back here and taught with us several years. And then, he went to John Hopkins research. Now I always thought that probably I’d influenced him more, as far as a career is concerned, than anyone else.

Stewart: Who was that?

Phillips: James Young. Now he was at Charlottesville. He took his degrees— his first degree at Charlottesville. He was here two years and then went on to Charlottesville and he was there for approximately the time John Carlson was there.

Stewart: I know John very well; we are good friends. Any others?

Phillips: Now, Jack Ford of the Ford Jewelry Company was one of my students. You see, he went to dental school and he was in the night class with Dr. – with John Lapetina, the dentist here in town. ­­__________ was a very good engineer at Virginia Beach. I have quite a few doctors and lawyers throughout Tidewater that I’ve had in class. It’s standing joke. If somebody sees his picture in the paper, I always have to come up with well "he was in my class!" [laughing] Now you had asked about activities. I went back and picked up where I had it listed more concretely here. I worked with the Virginia Academy of Science when they met here. Always. I don’t know if you are acquainted with that.

Stewart: I know about the Virginia Academy. I know they--

Phillips: Well, every time it has met, I've been the chairman of some thing for it. Now that is something else! When we were little and I mean little, Mr. Webb thought that it was appropriate that we take our turn entertaining the Virginia Academy of Science. So, we teamed up with the College of William and Mary and had it at the Chamberlain Hotel. And we were at the Chamberlain two different years. And we went over on the ferry then to the Chamberlain. I was the chairman of registration each of those times. When the Golden Triangle first opened down here, the Virginia Academy of Science was the first major convention they had. I was in charge of registration down there then. That was quite an event; we were able to come into Norfolk.

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Stewart: Well, it doesn't come here every year, does it?

Phillips: No, every five or six years. They were here last—It’s since I retired. I believe it was in ’80. And I volunteered my services over there then. It was at Webb Center at that time. I also was chairman of the ad hoc committee to present a procedure on grade appeals and I know Dean Pittman asked me to chair some crazy appeal that we had here several years ago involving the wife of one of our faculty members. I don't know if you ever heard of that one or not; but, I certainly wouldn't comment about it. You were talking about University. That’s some of the University.  And I served on parking and traffic committees several years. I was secretary of the University Senate-standing committee A for '74 and '75. And Dean _______ asked me to serve as chairman for a degrees and curriculum committee for the School of Sciences in '74 'and '75. I've had right many committee assignments throughout the years.

Stewart: You sound like a busy faculty member! Are there any other what shall we say, moments or experiences you can recall at this point that struck you at the time or still do as pleasant memories?

Phillips: Well, I think that I've hit many – I don’t know on tape if I had talked about our working with the musical production.

Stewart: Yeah. We talked about that. I gather that since you came back and taught that you liked to do that kind of thing, rather than just strictly retire. Are you enjoying retirement?

Phillips: I sometimes wonder how I had time to teach. You may not realize that when I came here our contracts called for fifteen hours one semester and eighteen the other.

Stewart: I didn’t know how much. I knew that it was a lot more than it is now.

Phillips: I have forgotten the balance of laboratory courses. Somehow I think that was counted as 2/3, but I know it was very time consuming. In physics, that’s where I taught it. We had— and of course such a thing as a grader was unheard of or department tests. They did try department— That was another interesting thing. They did try department exams when we first became a four-year college, maybe even before that, because there was quite a stir about it in the faculty meetings. We were still having everybody in the faculty meeting. And Ruben Cooper was one of the outspoken ones on that. In English, especially in literature, all the classes didn't have exactly the same readings and by the time you cut out this question because one class hadn't had it and another question because another class hadn't had it, you just watered down your exam until it was of no value whatsoever. But I can remember that must have been before we were a four-year college because Mr. Webb would sit to the side. He was teaching then, in addition to being Chief Administrator. One day during the exam period, we all gathered together to grade those physics papers. Now, that's a big change because now they send them over here to the computer center.

Stewart: You never did answer my question about how you are enjoying retirement!

Phillips: Well, I enjoy a little more flexibility of time. Let’s put it that way. But, I think that with my field in mathematics,

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if I don't keep up with it, I lose an awful lot! And I'm not willing to let that slip. I've put too much into it. So I was very pleased this last semester when I taught a five-hour calculus course again. I have either taught something each semester or have come back to audit because I don't intend to, as long as I still have a semblance of a mind, I don’t intend to let that slip!

Stewart: Well, we've had a most enjoyable interview, Miss Phillips and I thank you very much for coming and talking with me today.

Phillips: Thank you for asking me.

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