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Sweeney: Today I am pleased to be interviewing Mr. Louis G. Plummer, the Director of the Summer and Evening Programs at Old Dominion University, and formerly a member of the Department of Health and Physical Education. The first question, Mr. Plummer, you were a student at the College of William and Mary when Dr. William T. Hodges was director of the extension there. Do you have any recollections of this man who later served many years as the director of the Norfolk Division?
Plummer: Yes Jim. I knew Dr. Hodges very well. He was dean of men when I was at William and Mary as a student. I remember him particularly for his remarkable memory for names and places, particularly of students. He could, one time that he met you he would ask you where your home town was located, and the next time you see him, maybe six months later, he would call you by your first name, last name and tell you where you were from. [He was] very popular with students and I assume with faculty at that time.
Sweeney: Could you discuss your association over the years with Mr. Joseph C. "Scrap" Chandler?
Plummer: Yes. Scrap was the only person that I knew in Williamsburg when I went to William and Mary. Scrap had heard of me as a track athlete back in Hamilton, Ohio. And since he was the only one that I knew and I came from a very poor economic situation, Scrap became kind of a father to me while I was a student in school as my coach and also I took some classes under Mr. Chandler. A particular one I remember is Test and Measurements. Through the years I contacted him for advice in the teaching of physical education in the public schools for many years. I also kept contact with him through my track activities since he was a great promoter of high school track. And then of course he was very influential in me leaving the public schools to come to the Norfolk Division of the College of William and Mary. I continued to see Scrap at least two or three times a week. And I consider him as one of my most treasured friends and advisors.
Sweeney: Could you describe briefly your career from your graduation from William and Mary in 1936 until your appointment to the faculty of the College of William and Mary in Norfolk in 1956?
Plummer: Yes, Jim. I started my teaching career in the Hampton school system in a junior high school. I stayed at this junior high school where I was the only physical education teacher the first year. And I taught both girls and boys, and coached girls basketball and girls softball and all the sports. The second year I was there we secured the services of a woman physical education teacher. I coached all the athletic teams. I had a title of Dean of Boys. I worked on the class schedules and I stayed here for a period of six years. Then I moved to Newport News High School where I had several jobs. I co-coached
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track, was head football coach, assistant coach in basketball, and head of the physical education department. Also, while I was in Hampton I had two elementary schools that I advised and helped them set up programs in the elementary school.
Sweeney: Why did you choose to leave your position as head of the department of physical education at Newport News High School in 1956 to come to the college in Norfolk?
Plummer: Jim, primarily through the influence of Mr. Chandler. He was head of the department. Also, I was a personal friend of Bud Metheny since he was in school at William and Mary with me. Also, I felt that I had worked in every level of public education: elementary school, junior high, and high school. I thought that I might have something to contribute to young students who were preparing to teach physical education in the public schools. And I felt that I could make some contribution. Also, I could continue in my coaching of track, which is one of my first loves.
Sweeney: Could you describe the faculty and the conditions in the Department of Physical Education when you arrived in 1956?
Plummer: Yes, Jim. There was not that many staff members. Mr. Chandler was chairman of the department and also the athletic director. Mr. Metheny was here as an instructor, an assistant, or associate at that time. I can’t remember just which. Miss Emily Pittman, who is still on the physical education staff was here, and one other woman, a Miss Godwin, who in a couple of years left to go teach at the University of Tennessee. It was a very friendly faculty. We were engaged the first couple of years in setting up our program. It was a very challenging job and a very satisfying job. We studied many programs. We had a very small group of students who were very, very interested in learning the physical education profession and it was a real pleasure in those days. We were short a little bit on finances and secretarial help, but it was very pleasant in those first years.
Sweeney: During the years 1956 to 1963, could you describe your duties as co-coach of the track team?
Plummer: Yes, a track squad is very difficult to coach by one person. And Mr. Chandler and I had, of course, been associated so long that our philosophy was quite similar and our techniques were similar. Scrap, in the early years, coached the weight men and I took care of the other field events and all the running events because I also taught the cross-country team in the fall and was familiar with those. This was a very pleasant coaching situation, going back with my former college coach. Of course, I consider him to be an authority in the field of track and swimming. In fact, the only person I know that was considered to be an authority in the whole South in two sports, both swimming and track.
Sweeney: How did track rate among campus sports in the 1950’s and 1960’s?
Plummer: Jim, we were on the same priority, I guess, as all the other sports. We had sufficient amounts of equipment. We had sufficient funds for trips, meals, lodging, and a very dedicated group of students. I was very fortunate in all my coaching career in having had some outstanding young men participate.
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It was kind of a year-round job because we had cross country and indoor track and outdoor track. As far as success, I’ve always been very lucky as far as winning is concerned because I was lucky enough to have some good athletes. During Mr. Chandler’s regime as athletic director, all the sports were treated on the same basis.
Sweeney: From 1963 until 1968 you served as head track coach. What were the highlights of your tenure in this position?
Plummer: There was a period, Jim, in which we won twenty-nine straight duel meets over a period of four years. This group of young men who came in in the class of ‘63 did not lose a duel meet until their last meet and we had a few boys hurt and we lost to the University of Richmond the last duel meet that these young men participated in. This was a fine group of youngsters. No real outstanding athletes of national reputation, but hard workers and good students and just good young men who practiced regularly and worked hard. It was a shame that they could not go through their whole four-year period without a defeat. This was a very outstanding performance that they gave, which got kind of tight at times. I remember one meet with Springfield College in Massachusetts. We only won by one point, but generally we managed to do real well during that period of time.
Sweeney: Did any of your athletes go on to become noted in post collegiate or Olympic competition?
Plummer: Yes, we’ve had two or three real good athletes of national caliber. We had a young man, a hurdler, one of the first ones who won any national recognition, Lou Cappi who placed fifth in the national meet in high hurdles. Lou now is running a YMCA in Florida. Another one, Jerry Wright, who finished second in high jump at Ogden, Utah. And I guess the best of all the athletes developed after he left here. He was an engineering student on the old Co-op plan, a young man named Louis Castenola. After he left here he went to VPI. He won in the old Southern Conference. When VPI was in the old Southern Conference, he won the two-mile. He won the cross-country championships. He later continued to run. He held the American record for 18 kilometers. He was a national AAU marathon champion. He won many, many marathons throughout the nation. He failed in his tries for the Olympics because of his work situation. He was an engineer for the government and they would not let him off to train. He went out west and most of the athletes had been out there six weeks trying to adjust to the altitude and they gave him a week off to go out to try to adjust. He was a very outstanding athlete and a very fine student for which Old Dominion should be very proud.
Sweeney: In what track and field events did your teams especially excel?
Plummer: We had the first shot putter that ever threw a shot over fifty feet, which is not very good now. But in the State of Virginia [he was] the first college athlete to ever throw this far. We’ve had, of course I mentioned Louis Castenola. Of course, he was a distance runner. We always had good pole-vaulters. We had two… three real outstanding hurdlers who won in the state championships; Jim Thomas, Bobby James, who is now principal in the Newport News school system; and as I mentioned before, Lou Cappi
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in the hurdles. We also had an outstanding young man in the broad jump, Jimmy Harmon who participated in some national meets, relays, and so forth.
Sweeney: Did you have difficulty in getting men for certain events because the college had no football team?
Plummer: Of course this hurts any track team, not having a football team and [not] having those big men around, but we were very fortunate. We scored high. We had a real good discus thrower; we had real good shot putters, a boy named Bob Pratt and Gerald Teeterman; a boy named Edwards, who was a fine discus thrower. Yes, it would have helped if we had had a football team, because you do pick up some, but I was fortunate that we-- I picked up some basketball players, the big boys. I had one high jumper who was 6’7". Steve Cox of basketball fame threw discus for me and shot put. I tried to pick up as many big boys around campus as I could.
Sweeney: You also coached the cross-country team. How successful was it?
Plummer: Probably the cross-country team was more successful than the track team as we won our Mason-Dixon Conference championship one year when we were in the Mason-Dixon Conference. The track cross-country is much better than a lot of people give it credit for in the Mason Dixon. Some of the northern schools, particularly Mount St. Mary’s Catholic University and American University had very fine teams with athletes of national reputation. We also won a freshman state cross-country championship. I think this was the first state championship won by our freshman team during a couple of the years when we had freshman teams. These young men were very outstanding.
Sweeney: Speaking of freshmen, I believe in 1967 the freshmen were no longer allowed to compete on varsity teams in track. What effect did this have on your squad’s performance?
Plummer: Jim, this hurt our varsity performance, of course, because we couldn’t use the freshmen and a lot of other schools were still using them, particularly our opponents in the Mason-Dixon Conference. It was a good rule and I still think it’s a good rule. I think they didn’t have the long trips and the many trips to participate. We had an abbreviated schedule for them. We tried to let them run, for example, in cross-country against some of the local high school teams, which kept them at home and they didn’t have to travel. It gave them an opportunity to get their feet on the ground academically. This is something that I always stressed. After all, your track season and your athletic career is over very quickly unless you go into pros and you didn’t have pro track in those days. Not many of them would go anyway. I always tried to emphasize the academic side and, in fact, in the twelve years that I was here as track captain, five of the team captains now have PhD’s, all of them in the field of science. Of which, I am very proud of their performance academically as well as their athletics.
Sweeney: Why did you run into scheduling problems for the 1968 season?
Plummer: Jim, I don’t know where you got this question from, but I never had any real problems with scheduling. I had been around the coaching business for a long time and I think that my opponents considered me to be an honorable and person of some integrity. We didn’t have [any] real schedule problems.
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We tried to balance our schedule among the Mason-Dixon Conference teams, but we also had duel meets with the University of Virginia and the Atlantic Coast Conference. We had [a duel] with North Carolina State at the Atlantic Coast Conference, East Carolina University, University of Richmond, and William & Mary of the Southern Conference, so we had a pretty good balance, so we had a pretty good schedule. We’ve run to Springfield, as I mentioned before, in Massachusetts on their way down on their spring trip. We didn’t have any real problems with scheduling. We did for a little while. The University of Richmond, for example, we ran unofficial meets with them for a couple of-- several years because I don’t think they wanted to get beat by a small college from Mason—Dixon, or the little 8 as we were referred to in those days.
Sweeney: Do you have any more recollections of a student, Terry Wright, who participated in the NCAA College Division Track Tournament in the high jump in 1968?
Plummer: Yes, I know Terry very well. Terry was a fine athlete, one of the few fine athletes that I recruited right from high school. Most of my memories of the track team here at Old Dominion were not winners of their district or their state meets. These were young men who were on the way up. Terry was an outstanding athlete in high school. He developed and improved quite a bit here and as I mentioned before, he finished second in the NCAA College division at Ogden, Utah. We also took him to California the following year. The weather was so bad and conditions were so bad, he didn’t place in this meet, although he performed very well.
Sweeney: From 1968 to 1972 in what activities did you engage in the Department of Health and Physical Education?
Plummer: Jim, after I gave up the coaching business because I had gotten too involved in teaching, student teaching, student advising, teaching major courses, I spent most of my time helping students as chairman of a committee for student advisement and student teaching. This was a very time consuming job and I felt that because of my doctor’s request, he thought that I was just doing too much, I had to give up something. Of course, you still have to eat, and I got paid in those days I think, about $500 or $600 a year to coach the track team, whereas most of my salary came from my teaching, which I love to do anyway. But I helped the chairman of the Health and Physical Education department in any way whatsoever, also any younger staff members and students in the Health and PE department.
Sweeney: I did overlook that question about why you decided to retire. It said in the newspaper it was for reasons of health. Would you say that’s accurate?
Plummer: Jim, my physician seemed to think that I had a heart condition, angina. I never took any medication for this. Later just before I reported to work as the director of evening and summer programs I had a corroded artery cleaned out which was stopped up. And I think this had been causing all my problems. It has the same symptoms as angina. It’s one of the main arteries going up to the neck and had been closed up to where it was a very small opening. And this, of course, made me feel tired. Since this operation I’ve felt about fifteen years younger. This was performed by Dr. Thompson, a wonderful physician. This operation has really changed my whole physical feelings.
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Sweeney: When did you become part-time assistant to Dr. Stanley Pliska as Dean of the School of General Studies and what duties as an assistant did this position involve?
Plummer: I worked about six or seven years, Jim, at night for Dr. Pliska as the school-- the division and then I think it was then called the Division of Continuing Studies. It was expanding. I did odd jobs such as help prepare handbooks for students. We used to publish a handbook for faculty; special problems; I worked with the Computer Center trying to get grades out as soon at the extension classes, which were part of Continuing Education at that time; as soon as they finished they had been having to wait until the regular grade run. Any kind of little special problems; also was a receptionist and an advisor to new students coming in asking questions and this type of thing. It was a very interesting time of my career.
Sweeney: In 1972 you were appointed director of Summer and Evening Programs. What kind of challenges did you face in your new position?
Plummer: Well, for some reason, Jim, not quite clear to me, they shifted these two programs, the summer and the evening programs to General Studies. Apparently, from what I found in the evening, their part-time evening faculty and their part-time students had been neglected somewhat. The enrollment had continued to increase, but [was] very small. The summer, I think, needed some boost as far as the academic side. I think that nine hours was an unreasonable load to request teachers to teach. I think that we realized that we were in a marketing situation and this had to be called to the faculty’s and the chairman’s attention. There are still many challenges left in this position. Our evening program, I think the enrollment should be increased a great deal. There are so many things to do and in the short time that I’ve been here, being a very practical person, I just listed the things that I thought that I could accomplish each of these years and tried to do those. Some of which I have accomplished and some which I haven’t made much progress with.
Sweeney: What role did you play in developing the five-session summer school design? How has it worked? And what have been the advantages of this system?
Plummer: Jim. The largest summer school in Virginia for many years has been Virginia Commonwealth University. The director of the Evening and Summer Programs is a young man, well not a young man, a man of my age who had been at VCU for several years. He happened to be also a college student at William and Mary at the same time that I was there. John Mapp has studied and worked in the field of summer school for many years. John has just finished up his year as president of the National Association of Summer Schools, so he does demand much respect in the field of directors and deans of summer school.
He had started a three-week session. This didn’t seem academically feasible to me. This whole format of the five sessions came from John Mapp originally.
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The idea, and it was developed by Dr. Pliska, myself, and Dr. Allen Clark. Dr. Clark from the Provost’s Office has been very helpful and, of course, Stan has had many years experience in this type of thing. They have very graciously given me a free rein. Sometimes I get off base, but most of the time they have been very sympathetic to the suggestions and design of summer school; the new salary policies which at the present time is the highest in Virginia except for the University of Virginia. Last year we operated the largest summer school in Virginia and I think that the five-session summer school when in two or three years, after we have worked out all the kinks and problems, I think will continue to be successful because it’s based on serving the needs of the students when they’re available.
Sweeney: In 1974 the ODU summer session attracted the largest summer enrollment in Virginia. How do you explain this success?
Plummer: This, Jim, as I said, we added four weeks to our summer session. Also with the short courses, the four-week sessions, many students can still work a normal ten weeks during the summer, so they are financially able to come to school in the fall. I think that many students now are trying to accelerate their college career and get out in three years. This gives them an opportunity by having a twelve-week summer session. Also, I give a great deal of credit to our faculty and departmental chairmen who now, I think, most of the majority of them are in the marketing situation. They’re giving more consideration to their course offerings; and are offering courses that the students need; they’re studying their needs better. The success of the summer school cannot be attributed to me alone. Many, many people were involved. Dr. Pliska, primarily, and Dr. Clark, and of course the faculty and departmental chairmen which we couldn’t exist without their help. They’ve cooperated 100%.
Sweeney: How have you modernized registration procedures?
Plummer: Jim, I don’t know where you came up with this question. Our office did devise and get instituted the adding and deletion of classes. We did start the mail registration, which has proved very popular with some students. It has one problem with it and more students don’t use it is that we demand cash at the time they register where many students can defer this until a day or two before classes start. We considered registration by phone, but this has not proved successful in other schools – not too successful at other schools. I stay on the registration floor to help students. With the computer age, it’s very confusing, particularly to adult students -- all the forms they have to fill out. With the aid of the academic advisors and myself we try to shorten this with every possibility. Of course, I work closely with Mr. Beers, the director of registration and Jim Denny at Admissions, trying to reduce the amount of duplication. Registration is a very difficult time for students, particularly new students. And even old students, because we’re constantly changing the methods and the forms we use and this type of thing.
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I spend a great deal of my time studying registration procedures and looking for short cuts, which I pass on to Captain Beers and the Admissions Office and also the Finance Office.
Sweeney: How has the Evening College fared as the number of part-time students has increased dramatically across the country in the last couple of years?
Plummer: Jim, our enrollment of part-time students, of course, is following a national trend. Both the evening and summer programs have increased in growth probably a little bit faster than the normal college growth. We haven’t followed the national trends as far as a drop in enrollment in the evening and summer programs that many schools have experienced. This is still true in many institutions. Their summer school’s enrollment is still decreasing or showing a very small or very slight increase. Where we are continually showing a big increase. I think that with a little bit more advertising we could have a dramatic increase in our evening students. Of course, we have a great deal of competition from our community colleges, but maybe we are overcoming that now. We had an increase this past spring in the number of lower level courses that were being taught. This was the first time this has happened. That lower level, this is the 100 and 200 level courses, has been steadily decreasing while our upper level, because of the junior college graduates, has been increasing. I don’t know whether this increase has any significant effect on what will happen in the future or not. But I hope that it means that many of our students who are beginning a college career, rather than going through a community college, are now going to start at Old Dominion and finish at Old Dominion. Our part-time students, and there is no definition of a part-time student really except that those carry less than twelve hours. There’s no definition at the University of an evening student. They are all students to us and I think this is very fine. They go through the same admissions and the same registration procedures. We’ve stopped all that duplication of registration and admissions for the part-timers. And we try to treat them [as regular students], at least my office does, and many of the other departments and so on on campus don’t do this. I’ve had a constant battle with Student Affairs over what they offer for evening students. If they are lucky, they can pick up a Mace & Crown off the floor. That’s about the only services they get, yet they are paying their tuition fee. We don’t have any convocation schedule for evening students. We don’t have any ice cream parties for them. Very little... I think that with this and more funds for advertising and let adults know what we have to offer here, our evening program enrollment could be increased a great deal.
Sweeney: Reviewing your 19-year association with this institution, what have been your chief satisfactions and disappointments?
Plummer: Well, my chief satisfactions, Jim, I guess, stem from my students. I’m at the age now that many of these young men and women stop by occasionally or drop me a line telling me what they’re doing and their success. As I mentioned before, the five team track captains who now have PhD’s gave me a great deal of satisfaction. I feel that I came to the institution at a very good time. When we were first starting our physical education program and it’s been great
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satisfaction to see that grow and increase to where now we are offering a master’s degree. And I think that our quality is certainly as good as any institution in the South or any place in the country. I guess one of the big satisfactions I had was to see the Physical Education building designed for physical education, not necessarily for athletics, although I love athletics. Another satisfaction was to see the athletic program grow to such a level as it has in the past few years. I guess as far as disappointments are concerned, is the priority placed on track. It’s the world’s oldest sport. We have one of the finest center tracks in the country. We have the interest among the community in track activities. At one time when we promoted track meets in here for high schools where we brought in college guests, Olympic guests, where we would have ten to twelve thousand people to see this and to see this just disappear from our program is very disheartening. As I think back on the many young men who participated in track, I think that the students today, a group of them is certainly missing out on this type of opportunity to train and opportunity to participate. I feel that athletics is a very important part of a student’s career, either on a varsity level or intramural level. That’s another one of my satisfactions to see such a high percentage of participation in intramural sports; to see our physical education department expand to lifetime sports; and to have the facilities. I guess I’ll have to live with my disappointments in track, although it’s not really an expensive sport as sports go. They have no officials to pay. Equipment is not too costly. Of course, track athletes like to eat and travel on the same level as any other athlete and this is where you run into real problems. I think with this student body we have on campus, a sufficient number of fairly good athletes that could compete with the local state schools if we were to return to our track program to the same level as wrestling, baseball, and some of the other sports.
Sweeney: Thank you very much, Mr. Plummer.
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