Oral History Interview
with
DR. A. RUFUS TONELSON

Norfolk, Virginia
December 9, 1975
by James R. Sweeney, Old Dominion University

Listen to Interview

Dr. Tonelson is Assistant to the President for School and Community Relations at Old Dominion University.

Q: Dr. Tonelson, could you tell me about your background prior to 1930. That is, where you were born, your family background, and your early education?

Tonelson: I was born in New York City, believe it or not. The family moved to Norfolk when I was four years old. We lived on the East Side of town. That is, just off Church Street at the time, on a street that is still there called Wood Street. I went to Henry Clay Elementary School and then I believe when I was in the fourth grade, moved to the west part of town on 14th Street. I continued my schooling at John Marshall School. I completed my elementary schooling there, then went on to Blair Junior High School and then to Maury High School and was graduated in 1929. Then I went from Maury to William and Mary the second semester of 1929-30. This would have been in February 1930. I went there as a freshman and was there until June of that year.

Q: Why did you choose to enter the first class of the Norfolk Division in the fall of 1930?

Tonelson: As already stated, I was at William and Mary for the half a year, but that summer my father was seriously hurt in an accident which seriously depleted what little funds we had. You remember this was the time of the Great Depression. Fortunately for me, the Norfolk Division of the College of William and Mary was opened in September 1930 and I immediately took the opportunity to enroll as a student.

Q: Could you tell me about your first registration for classes at the new junior college?

Tonelson: Actually, it wasn't known as a junior college. It was the Norfolk Division and it was set up to provide two years of education for students who were graduating from the high schools in the area. As I remember, I took a streetcar from where I lived, (I imagine the fare was five cents), came out here, saw a lady in an office and told her I wished to register for the fall term. At that time she made a remark that I was the first student to have contacted her about registration. Since then I understand there were two other students that enrolled with Principal Haley who is at Blair Junior High School, who was also instrumental in forming the Norfolk Division. So, this was my first registration that was held in what was the Old Academic Building.

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Q: Could you relate your impressions of the first faculty of the college? Does anyone stand out in your recollection?

Tonelson: At this point I think I would have to name almost every member of the faculty who taught in those early years. Certainly there comes to mind Mr. Edgar Timmerman who was the first Director. My most vivid picture of Mr. Timmerman was that he always went around with a pipe in his mouth. In the field of Chemistry, there was Dr. Perry Jackson; in Biology there was Dr. Jones; Economics there was Dr. Prosser; English, Dr. Gray; and Language Dr. Williams. I would be amiss if I didn't mention Dr. Marsh who was the first Economics professor we had, who commuted from William and Mary.

I might say a number of professors commuted from William and Mary. Among these, of course as I mentioned, was Dr. Marsh, in addition there was Dr. Blocker, who taught Philosophy and Psychology. There was a Dr. Bruce, who taught us American History, and others that stand out in my mind, Dr. Akers came here I believe in 1931. There was a Miss Burke who taught Government, Miss Saunders who was in English. Mr. Webb and Mr. White came to the Division in 1932, when VPI began to offer two years of an Engineering program. Others who come to mind are a Miss Childress who taught Math, a Miss Parker who taught Physical Education, and I would be amiss if I didn't mention Tommy Scott, who took care of all the men's physical education. He coached just about all sports: baseball, basketball, football, and took a liking to me. Even though there wasn't a great discrepancy in our ages, he was almost just like a father to me, so I do have special memories of Coach Tommy Scott.

Q: Could you tell me about the physical conditions under which the students and faculty worked and studied?

Tonelson: In what was later called the Old Academic Building, there were classrooms. The building had been an old elementary school, which had been turned over to the College of William and Mary. I imagine supplies and equipment for the most part could probably be termed inadequate. We had some two hundred students enrolled in the school, but somehow we learned there was a great deal of emphasis on the educational program as such. We had little in the way of grounds facilities. I remember that many times a Physical Education class consisted of running down to the waterfront along Bolling Avenue and then running back. We probably had two showers at best for those who were in the gym classes, so it was not unusual on the hot spring and summer days to have those of us in the Phys. Ed. class just keep on going and plunge in. I guess this may have been the beginning of a swimming team, which followed.

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Some of the classes were very large. Our History and English classes met in a rather large auditorium that was to the rear of the building. The smaller classes would meet in different rooms. It had a biology lab, as I remember, and a Chemistry lab. There were few spaces that the professor used as offices, but the main office was a small area, and how they managed to keep all the records that they did there, I'll never understand.

The library facilities were always inadequate. We had few if any books, and most of the professors who used to commute from Williamsburg would bring with them at the beginning of a semester, twenty five or thirty books that would be placed around the classroom.

Q: You've already mentioned Coach Tommy Scott. Do you have any other special memories of the Coach?

Tonelson: As I say, Tommy Scott was almost like a father to me. I played basketball and baseball under Tommy. Then later on when I returned with a degree in Biology from William and Mary, I assisted Coach Scott in baseball and basketball. There are many stories that I could tell, but I don't know that this is the time or the occasion.

Q: What are your recollections of the campus social activities in the early 1930's?

Tonelson: Well, as I remember, the social activities, and all campuses have to have something of course, consisted of one or two organizations for the boys, male organizations, which they were invited to join. These were the Tiga Club and the Imps Club. The girls had three social organizations: the Alpha, the Tri-K, and the Cotillion. These organizations had a small number of students. I guess most of the students who were attending the division were doing their best to complete the one or two years of work that they had here, in the hopes that they could go on to other schools and complete their education. However, these social clubs did spring up. They contained a number of boys and a number of girls and essentially they conducted dances through the year, teas and the like.

Q: You served as a reporter on the student newspaper, The High Hat. What were your most interesting experiences on that job?

Tonelson: I was, I guess, a novice when I was reporting, but I was always fascinated with covering the football games that we played at that time. Certainly in the beginning of our athletics most of the schools that we played tended to be high schools. Occasionally we played smaller colleges. I remember trips to East Carolina Teachers College, as it was then known. Now it's East Carolina University. I remember trips to Bowies Creek where Campbell College is located. So these were the interesting experiences that I had, the fact that I got to go on trips with these teams. Whereas in the past, I hadn't really been anywhere.

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Q: Do you recall the student/faculty baseball game played on April 21, 1933 in which the students won 37-7?

Tonelson: Memory certainly fails me on this one, because in '33 I was a member of the baseball team. I would have begun my third year on the squad. We were always having student/faculty games of one sort or another in basketball and certainly in baseball. I may have participated with the faculty at that time, as I was a student instructor. I do remember a game being played in the rain. There seemed to be a lot of hitting and a lot of base running. And the rains came down and perhaps this must be the game in which the students won 37-7.

Q: Could you tell me of your experiences as a pitcher on the varsity baseball team for three years?

Tonelson: I'm a great one for keeping everything the same and when you first mentioned this interview, I happened to be looking through a textbook that I had used in the old Norfolk Division.., it's called Public Education in the United States by Coverley, and I had put it to good use evidently. In it I found that I had compiled my record in baseball of over three years. I became a member of the first baseball team in 1931 and then played again in '32 and '33 and in that period of three years (and as I mentioned, many of our games were played against high schools and some smaller colleges in North Carolina) my record over the three year period indicated that I had won fifteen games and lost two games. I remember I lost a very close game to Cape Charles High School by the score of 3-2 and then in my third year I lost a close game to Wilson, 5-3. In my second year, in 1932, on the basis of having won five games and pitched some 19 innings in relief, I was named the leading pitcher of the Tidewater Interscholastic Baseball League which consisted of the high schools in the Tidewater area at that time along with the Norfolk Division.

Q: Was the student-faculty relationship in your student days here a particularly close one?

Tonelson: I would say for a number of us, it was a very, very close relationship. It was almost in certain instances like a father to a son or daughter, or an older brother or sister to a younger brother or sister. It was not unusual for a group of students to be seen around any of our professors when they were not teaching, to be engaged in conversation, discussing topics which. Unfortunately, there was no time to discuss in the class. Again I would emphasize the fact that it was a very close relationship. The professors certainly knew us by name and we in turn knew our professors, and because of the caliber of these professors, we had a great deal of respect for them, and certainly there was a great deal of admiration by the students for these instructors.

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Q: How was it that you obtained a Bachelor of Science degree from William and Mary in only three years, and as you mentioned, you spent part of this time in Williamsburg?

Tonelson: As I mentioned previously, I had been at William and Mary at the second half of the 1930-31 semester at which time I completed approximately eighteen hours of freshman work. With the opening of the Division in September I immediately enrolled and was able to complete three years of course work. At the end of the second year certain courses were taught on the third year level. These were in Biology, as I remember, and in Chemistry. I was able thereby to take these additional courses. I then went back to the College of William and Mary during the summer of '33 and by taking an additional eight hours of course work in Chemistry and six hours in History I w and six hours in History I was able to get my BS degree with a major in Biology and minors in History and Chemistry.

Q: Why did you elect to continue at the college as a Biology lab instructor after your graduation in 1933?

Tonelson: We were still in the throes of the Depression. It was extremely difficult to get any kind of a job however menial it may have been. I owed what was then a considerable sum of money to the College of William and Mary, in that for most of the time, I had signed notes for my tuition. The Director here contacted the authorities of William and Mary, and I was interviewed and named as a student instructor in Biology. I might say that my pay at this time was something like $40 a month and the College of William and Mary kept $25 of this so that I could meet the debt that I owed them. So I was getting along somehow living at home with $15 a month.

Q: One question I wanted to add is what was your connection with the issuance of the first yearbook called The Cauldron?

Tonelson: I believe The Cauldron was issued in 1939. Previous to that time we had an honorary scientific fraternity, Sigma Epsilon Pi, it was called. At the time the work on The Cauldron began, I was I guess you might say, the President of Sigma Epsilon Pi. I believe the title was Grand Alchemist, if I'm not mistaken. This scientific fraternity began with a group of students who were majoring in Chemistry under the direction of Dr. Perry Jackson, so it was during my regime as Grand Alchemist that the plans were made and carried out and we were rewarded in that we were able to publish The Cauldron. It was the first yearbook of the Norfolk Division.

Q: What were your main impressions then of the college during the 1930's?

Tonelson: As far as I was concerned it was a college which was giving me the opportunity to go ahead in the field of education. It enabled others also to make beginnings even for two years, in their chosen careers, so we for the most part took advantage of the offerings of the college. I would guess that my main impression was the closeness of the group of students certainly in the early years. It seemed that we would do almost anything to help our fellow students. We studied together, we tutored each other. Again I would point out the closeness we had with our professors, but the main impression,

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it seemed to me, was the oneness which bound us all together to this Norfolk Division of the College of William and Mary.

Q: What motivated you to choose teaching as a career?

Tonelson: Well, again I go back to those years of the Depression. It was almost impossible to get jobs. Certainly my family could not afford to send me away so I could pursue some professional course such as a doctor, or a lawyer, even though many of my friends were able to do this. I continued to work toward my degree, and in that I did need credits, hoping to get enough credits to be graduated from the College of William and Mary in the shortest amount of time as possible. I selected quite a number of courses in Education and electives. So with my BS degree in Biology and having met the requirements for teaching as set up by the State Department of Education, I also received a teaching certificate in Biology, Science, Chemistry, History and all grades up to the eighth.

Q: After four years of teaching at Ruffner Junior High School (1936-39) you joined the faculty at Maury High School (1939-43). Why did you make this change from junior to senior high school teaching?

Tonelson: As you mentioned I was teaching at Ruffner Junior High School and then in 1939 Granby High School (it was then called Granby Street High School, I believe at that time) was opened and quite a number of teachers who were teaching not only at Ruffner but also at Blair were asked if they would like to teach at Granby Street High School. I was asked would I like to teach at Granby or Maury High School, in that the backyard in which I lived at that time was adjacent to the back of Maury. So I elected to teach at Maury. In the fall of 1939, I began to teach at Maury High School, a school from which I had been graduated back in 1929.

Q: Could you describe your service in the United States Army in World War II?

Tonelson: I wish that I could tell you what a hero I was in the United States Army in World War II, but I guess I was somewhat like Sgt. Bilko. I served a little over three years, but most of the time I was stationed at Camp Lee, which is now Fort Lee in Petersburg, Virginia. I actually got out of the state in all that time once when I spent four months attending Finance School at Fort Ben Harrison in Indianapolis, Indiana. I could go on for hours and tell you about my service in the United

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States army in World War II. Many amusing things happened but I was very fortunate in that, I guess, I wasn't assigned to go overseas. I had three assignments to go overseas, but in each case these were canceled for one reason or another. I guess they felt I couldn't do the military much good overseas. So that would have to be another chapter at another time.

Q: When you returned from your military service did you return to teaching?

Tonelson: I was discharged from the Army on Christmas Day 1945 and returned to Norfolk. I went to see the Superintendent about taking up a teaching position. At this time there were no openings, but I was named Director of Veterans Training for the public schools of Norfolk. I set up programs for returning veterans. Actually it was a two-track program. We had a program for veterans who were returning to high school in order to receive their high school diploma, and then we established another program in which we taught certain kinds of occupation skills to other veterans who were more interested in going into the job market.

I remained as Director of Veteran Programs for the City of Norfolk it seem to me, two and a half or three years. Then I left this program in order to enter private business as Manager of Hamburg and Co. ship supplies company. The reason I did this, I had been married in 1945, just previous to getting out of the service. My wife's family owned the ship supplies company. There was really no one to carry on the business at this time. There was a brother who was getting old. My wife's mother was quite old, so I went into that business and managed the company. During all this time, I guess I still had a longing to return to the field of education.

Mr. Brubaker, who was then Superintendent of schools in Norfolk had called me on a number of occasions and asked me would I not return to teaching. Then in 1950 I was given the opportunity to return to teaching as a special substitute in Government at Maury High School. A teacher had left unexpectedly, and I wanted to go back to teaching. We'd made other arrangements to take care of the business, so I returned.

Two months after I had started this substituting, the teacher that I had replaced returned unexpectedly. Mr. Brubaker called me down to his office and asked me would I mind going to teach at Patrick Henry Elementary School which was in Atlantic City at that time. This meant teaching a fifth and sixth grade. I was very happy to return to teaching so I went and taught there for half a year. That summer I went to William and Mary to continue my work on my Masters degree which I had started the previous summer. Again Mr. Brubaker called and asked me how would I like to be Acting Assistant Principal of Maury High School. I jumped at this and in September of 1950, I returned to Maury as Acting Assistant Principal. I served in this capacity for one year, then in 1951 I was named the Assistant Principal.

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Q: How successful were your basketball teams at Maury?

Tonelson: I coached the basketball teams at Maury on two occasions. In both instances for some reason or another, for a period of one year we were unable to hire a coach. Actually my first year of coaching at Maury was in 1943-44. I inherited a team which I think had won approximately five games and lost fifteen games the year before, and turned the record completely around by winning fifteen games and losing five.

Then again after a period of some ten years I again was called upon to coach the 1953-54 team at Maury and again turned an unsuccessful previous season into a successful season. I might say there was a lot of joking going on when I began to coach the '53 team, because when I had coached in '43 we had the center jump after each point being made. However, in '53 the center jump was abandoned and the only time we jumped was on a held ball at the beginning of each quarter. So all in all we were very successful. I coached a number of young men who went on to fame and glory at the Norfolk Division of the College of William and Mary, which later became Old Dominion College. I taught others who went to VPI or VMI, who really became very successful basketball players, but this was because they had good coaches at the time.

Q: What did your job as principal of the Maury High Night School involve?

Tonelson: Here again, I guess it was being in the right spot at the right time. I was the Assistant Principal of the Maury High School. The principal of the Maury Night School had some 2500 students attending night school, and he became ill, I believe he had a heart attack, and as they looked around for someone to take over to end that particular term, I happened to be there. My work as Assistant Principal kept me in the building long hours so I was asked if I would take on the additional job as Principal of the Maury Night School. I found it to be rather fascinating, in that most of those who came to the night school were adults, and generally involved in learning skills which would enable them to take up jobs in the business world. There was no problem of discipline and the like. So all in all it was a very enjoyable position to be in.

Q: When did you serve as visiting Associate Professor of Education at the College of William and Mary in Williamsburg? How did you come to accept the position?

Tonelson: My ties with the College of William and Mary in Williamsburg have always remained very close. On every occasion during the summer months I was there as a student in the School of Education. In fact one of the standing jokes among the professors there was that I had been a student at William and Mary when Pocahontas used to run around in the woods behind the campus. There were

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times I felt I had been there that long. At this time a Dr. Oliver, who happened to be Dean of the School of Education at William and Mary asked me would I take a teaching job. I believe the first class I taught for him was in general Psychology. I don't know what made me say yes, but I did say yes, and from that time on they used me to teach classes, not in Psychology, thank goodness, but in the field of Education. I was teaching extension courses for them in the Tidewater area and then during the summer I went on campus and taught some Education classes.

Q: What were the principal challenges facing you in 1957 in your new position as principal of Maury High School?

Tonelson: When I assumed the position of Principal of Maury High School, I guess the challenges that one had to meet dealt with the educational program. The problems pertaining to discipline were few and far between actually. We had a hard core of youngsters who would come to the office because of truancy and an occasional forgery, this kind of thing. But I am sure these are not the kinds of discipline problems that principals face today. So with the small amount of time that had to be spent on discipline, our main thrust was toward improving our education program. Certainly new types of courses were being added to the curriculum, which necessitated study groups and the like, so the challenge was to keep Maury's fine record always before the public and the students, so they in turn could add to the fine record that Maury had in the past years. I guess all in all it was a matter of instilling in the students and in the teachers the respect for each other and the idea that Maury High School had been number one and was going to continue as number one in the field of education.

Q: What role did you play in efforts to have the schools reopened during the Massive Resistance crisis of 1958?

Tonelson: Again I guess I could write a book here. This was the most trying time because of the Governor's edict, Maury was one of the three high schools to be closed in Norfolk, in that the federal court had decreed that we were to take, in the case of Maury, one lone black youngster along with our 2500-2600 whites. However we were closed from September until February. I visited any number of PTA groups, civic clubs and the like and spoke out. I tried to point out the terrible price that our youngsters were paying in that the high school was closed. At times I was threatened. I was called all kinds of names, but I just had to persist with this, and I assure you I'm no knight in shining white armor. The whole program of Massive Resistance to me was just a stupid one in that it denied our young people the privilege of going to our high school to receive an education. The seeds that were laid at that time unfortunately still continue to grow, it seems to me, as I view our school situation today.

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Q: You referred to this, but I will ask anyway, were you subject to harassment by the school closures during, the Massive Resistance crisis of 1958?

Tonelson: As I've already mentioned, I was called all kinds of names, which I would prefer not to repeat at this particular time. I was allowed in the building during the time of the closing and it was not unusual for me to receive harassing phone calls or threatening phone calls. I remember one that I repeated to a friend and it made its rounds throughout the city of Norfolk and it is true.

One day I was seated in the office, alone as usual. It was raining so hard outside you could hardly see two inches from your nose. The phone rang and this rather abrupt voice told me that I had better get out of the building. When I proceeded to ask why, I was told that the building was going to be burned within the next hour. I remarked, had he looked to see how it was raining outside, and with that I hung up. This was one of the light moments that occurred during this particular time. As I say there were others, but it was a most terrible time, especially for parents who had their children in the high school.

Q: What are your recollections on the difficult period in Norfolk's history in the sense of how was it that widespread violence was avoided, and did you have any contact with the political leaders such as City Council or the school committee leaders who were trying to get the schools reopened?

Tonelson: Well, as I read in the paper what happened in Boston not too long ago, because of integration and the like, it makes me even more proud of the citizens in Norfolk. There were certainly a strong faction of segregationists who felt it was the proper thing to do to close the previously all white high schools rather than let any blacks into the school. However most of this took part in rhetoric and the like. I am only thankful to the people of Norfolk who were able to take this in stride without any violence. Certainly we wrote to our Congressmen, to our Senators, to our Representatives in Richmond, to the Governor. We did not get very far in doing this. I encouraged parents to do this. They would say well we did it and it hasn't helped. Now you tell us to keep on doing it. They were rather bitter, but at no time was there any violence for which we can certainly all be thankful. Our city council at this time certainly supported a segregated school system, but fortunately they came to their senses so the school were eventually opened.

Q: Did you teach part-time at Old Dominion College while you were principal of Maury High School?

Tonelson: I not only taught at Old Dominion College, I was also teaching extension summer school at the College of William and Mary. Dr. Franklin Jones had become Dean of the Division of the School of Education at Old Dominion College and interviewed and had asked me to teach classes in the field of guidance. I had already been teaching such classes for

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William and Mary in their extension as well as during the summer session. So while I was principal of Maury High School, I spent some three nights a week also teaching extension for Old Dominion College and the College of William and Mary. Of course, this was done with the approval of the Superintendent.

Q: Why did you leave Maury High School in 1966 to join the ODC faculty?

Tonelson: Sometimes I wonder about this myself, but my ties with Old Dominion College were very strong. Actually they went back to the old Norfolk Division of the College of William and Mary, and I've covered that period previously. There was a challenge in coming to Old Dominion College. It was just at the beginning of, it seemed to me, a tremendous growth period and having been at the beginning, I wanted to be a part of it again. I guess for this reason I did leave public school education to join the faculty here.

Q: What courses did you teach at Old Dominion?

Tonelson: As I've already mentioned, I taught courses in the field of Guidance and Counseling. Dr. Jones was interested in setting up a program in administration and my courses that I taught here then dealt with secondary school, elementary school, and public school administration. This would also include courses in the field of Curriculum Education, and similar educational programs or courses.

Q: Could you give, your estimate of the quality of the teacher training programs at ODC in 1966? What were the strengths and weaknesses?

Tonelson: I assume some of the strengths had to do with the numbers. At this time we weren't too large in number. We have a great deal of attention to the individual student who was preparing to teach in various public school systems here and else where. We perhaps did a better job supervision these individuals in that again, as I say there, weren't too many out in the field. I also feel that those of us who did the supervising in the field were much closer to the individual teacher trainee than we have today. Because of other commitments and the like, sometimes I feel that our professors are not quite interested in supervising these young people who are going in the field in the hopes of becoming teachers. Certainly today we are much stronger in the course offerings that we have to give to our student-teachers. In addition to this there is a program now called participation in which our students in the second year...go out into the schools and observe what is going on. Many are called upon to do various jobs that teachers have to do, and this in turn gives them an idea of whether they wish to continue in teaching or not. We did not have this particular type of program at that time when I was here in '66. I think this has aided and embedded in our preparations of teachers and has enabled us to carefully look at our people as well as their opportunity to look at themselves as prospective teachers.

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Q: Could you discuss how during your busy career you were able to acquire a Master of Education degree in Guidance from the College of William and Mary in 1953 and a Doctor of Philosophy degree in Administration and Supervision from Michigan State University in 1963?

Tonelson: As I mentioned earlier, I served in the Army and then under the GI Bill of Rights, I guess in the summer of 1950. I had the thought that as long as I was going to be in education, and of course this was before I went into business, that I should go ahead and work for my master's degree in Guidance. Of course, the College of William and Mary was the closest college with which I had ties.

So in the summer of '50, and then I believe maybe '52, and then again in '53 (I don't know why I didn't return in '51) I worked on a master's degree in Guidance. I might say that just before being drafted into the Army I had been working on a master's degree at the College of William and Mary and had completed most of my class work. However when I went back to William and Mary in the summer of '50, and the tuition and book were being paid for by the GI Bill, it was like a vacation. I've always loved Williamsburg. I took an additional thirty hours of work. I imagine I probably received more credits in working toward a master's degree from the College of William and Mary than anyone ever before, since or after. Again I was fortunate in that I completed my work in '53. I had a friend at the College of William and Mary, a young man who came in the summer of '51 from Michigan State University. And at a conference that was held on the campus of William and Mary in the field of Guidance, the main speaker was a Guidance professor from Michigan State University, and somehow or another he convinced me that I should go on for my doctorate. This was in the fall of '53-54, so I received a graduate assistantship to work, not in Guidance, but in the field of Administration at Michigan State. So that fall I packed up my wife and my two youngsters and we went off to Michigan State University. I completed a year's work there, then went back the second summer, and completed all the requirements for the doctorate with the exception of the dissertation. For the next intervening eight or nine years I really did nothing in the way of a dissertation, other than to become unhappy by thinking when I went somewhere that I should be working on the dissertation. And finally, I believe it was Thanksgiving of '62, I decided I was going to write the dissertation. So between Thanksgiving of '62 and the beginning of the year of '63, I finished the dissertation and contacted my professors at Michigan State University. I had been in contact with them all along and I was able to finish the dissertation, which I received in the summer of '63. They made me take additional work because of the intervening period for some nine or ten years.

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Q: As chairman of the Department of Secondary Education at Old Dominion College from 1966-69, what changes did you bring about in the Department?

Tonelson: I don't know that I brought many changes to the department during that period. I mentioned introducing the course of participation, which we required of all sophomores who said they wanted to go into teaching. During those years, the enrollment continued to increase, which meant that we had to add additional courses, so I guess really the changes that occurred were brought about by increases number of students coming into the school of education by the addition of faculty members and more or less carried on the plan that Dr. Jones had set up for me when he talked to me about coming to the college.

Q: In 1969 you were chosen to succeed Dr. Franklin Ross Jones as Dean of the Darden School of Education. What were your thoughts on becoming Dean?

Tonelson: I guess my first thought was I was extremely flattered that I was selected to follow Dr. Jones as Dean of the School of Education because he had done so much to enlarge the school and make it prestigious. Certainly I was aware of the many challenges that I would have to face. I already mentioned as Department Chairman we were beginning to face increased numbers of students who enrolled in the School of Education. We were in the process of hiring many additional faculty members to take care of the increasing enrollment. But again, reiterating, I was extremely flattered. I felt it would be very, very challenging and I really hoped I could succeed in carrying out the philosophy and the policies of the college at that time.

Q: Did you have any basic philosophy of plan to implement in the School of Education?

Tonelson: I type of teacher that we could as we trained them. I imagine this was really my basic philosophy. The plan to implement this, as I've already pointed out, was to put in a course when the students were in their second year which would enable us to screen them as well as to enable them to see if they thought teaching was the kind of position that they wanted. I also had one other idea, which had not been implemented up to this time. That was to have a program where education majors were to substitute some 70 hours or 50 hours (the hours are not important), but the students were to work in nursery schools and the like. And kind of work that would get them working with children while they were in the freshman year. This would be non-credit. Upon successful completion of this, they then would go into the second year of the School of Education and in this we would have our course of participation and then go into a third and fourth year when they were called upon to do student teaching. This plan has been implemented with the exception of a voluntary program in the first year.

Q: Why did you leave the Dean's post in 1971?

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Tonelson: I was asked by Dr. Bugg if I would take this new position which had been conceived as Assistant to the President for School and Community Relations. The College had grown tremendously. It was important that there be someone who would be a middleman perhaps in dealing with the school and with the community leaders and the like. I imagine it was Dr. Bugg's thinking that I, who had been living here most of my life, and who had been very active in the public schools, perhaps would best fit that particular position. So, when the position was offered, I was given time to think about it. It was one that appealed to me. It would enable me again to pick up the close ties I had with many educators, many community leaders were beginning to disappear as I was the Dean and had no occasion to really meet with our community leaders, so I did take the position.

Q: Could you be more specific in what were your duties and responsibilities in the new position as Assistant to the President for School and Community Relations?

Tonelson: As Assistant to the President for School and Community Relation I worked very, very closely with Superintendents as to the type of programs they felt we might institute in our School of Education or any of our schools which would enable us to better prepare the teachers that would be hired to teach in their system. No only this, but we discussed various types of programs for the slow learner, for the gifted child, and the like. Out of this has grown a number of programs that we engage in cooperatively with the various school systems.

I worked rather closely with the community college officials and we were able to work out certain programs with Norfolk State. We were able to work out a cooperative program with them involving our teacher trainees that were highly successful. So these were some of the things that I did carry on as Assistant to the President. I might also say I tried to make friends for the college, and the later the University as I worked with the city officials and the like.

Q: What had been the highlights of your work with President Bugg?

Tonelson: It is a difficult question to answer. I guess really it was bringing the School of Education to the minds of certainly the school people in the area. By Dr. Bugg appointing me to this position, I had the time to go out and work very closely with the various individuals in the Tidewater area, whether they were in education or whether they were in political areas. I think perhaps this has been the highlight of my work for Dr. Bugg.

Q: In February l973, you were named by Dr. Bugg as the University's Affirmative Action and Equal Employment Opportunity officer. What did this appointment involve?

Tonelson: Actually this was assuming another hat. In February 1973 we really weren't aware of all the ramifications of Affirmative Action and Equal Employment. However, a look at one of the shelves in my bookcase would indicate the amount of work that has gone into the University's Affirmative Action Equal Employment Opportunity Program. I'm responsible to see that records are kept and that records are forwarded to the State and to the National Government. When called upon, I’m involved. Whenever some action is taken by one of our people, who charge us with discrimination and this kind of thing.

Q: Do you feel that you’ve accomplished your original goals as Affirmative Action and Equal Opportunity Officer?

A: Well I don’t think anyone ever accomplishes their goals. Personally I would like for us to have a greater black student enrollment then we now have without decreasing our requirements for entrance to the university. I certainly feel that we should have a greater number of black professors on our campus even though we’re faced with many, many problems here; we are not competitive as far as salary is concerned. But all in all, I think we’ve done a fairly good job in affirmative action equal employment opportunity, however, there are still many, many more miles to go and I especially point out the increased enrollment among black students as well as black faculty.

Q: Did you set any quotas, formal or informal, for the hiring of blacks and women?

A: No. We do not have any quotas, as I have previously stated. Certainly, we would do everything that we possibly could to increase the number of blacks and minorities that are on the campus. I say we would do possibly anything we could, I think with the exception of lowering requirements; this I cannot see. I think it’s unfair to a black student; it’s unfair to perhaps any minority student to be enrolled, whereas all kind of records would indicate that the person could not succeed in their attempt to receive a college or university education. I think this is unfair to these people. So we do not have quotas but we are constantly looking to hire blacks and minorities, we are constantly looking to increase the number of blacks and minorities on our campus as it concerns our student body.

Q: How do you try to prevent reverse discrimination against middle class whites in the employment process?

A: Well, in hiring faculty there is a form that the applicant fills out concerning his race, his sex and the like that comes to me in a separate envelope when he makes an application for a position. The Chairman or the Dean who receives the application does not know as to the race or the sex of the individual unless it’s obvious by name. That applicant then is judged on the merits of his ability, his training and the like. This way is to say as we hire we don’t know, at least the Dean or the Chairman doesn’t know he’s dealing with a white or with a black. When the selection is made and I am told, then I compile my figures, which will go to the state and to the Office of Civil Rights or H.E.W. (Health, Education & Welfare).

Q: You’ve mentioned a number of your duties at the University today. Are there any other important duties that you have?

A: I don’t know how important this duty is that affords me so much pleasure. For the last nine or ten years I have served as Timekeeper for our basketball games. As I say, it is not a duty it is a pleasure; one that I enjoy. I might say, I also continue to teach a guidance class for the School of Education.

Q: What are your impressions of your Alma Mata after watching it grow over a period of forty years?

A: As I look back over this period of forty years, and it doesn’t seem to have been that long, I’m just filled with pride as to the growth of what was the old Norfolk Division of the College of William and Mary; from the enrollment of two hundred students to today where we have an enrollment of thirteen thousand students; from a faculty of ten professors, some of whom commuted from Williamsburg, to a faculty that numbers over four hundred. One just has to have a feeling of pride in knowing that somehow or the other even though he played a small part he was there at the beginning he’s here now and hopefully he will be here long enough to observe this growth over the period of the next few years. I guess that’s about it. It was sort of heart tugging to see that old elementary school building that had given me so much joy and pleasure being torn down. I guess this is progress. Those of us who attended that old building will forever cherish it in our memory. However, we’re also filled with pride when we see what has occurred over this area; where once there were streets with houses now we have these imposing academic buildings; where a few students used to walk along the walks today we see hundreds and thousands of students hurriedly going from one place to the other. You can’t have but a feeling of pride in seeing the growth that has taken place from 1930 to this period of 1975.

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