Vaughan: This is Karen Vaughan. It’s now Friday, March 13th and we’re continuing our interview with Cecelia Tucker. We covered a lot of her background, and now what we’re going to do is focus on her job at ODU. And you started a little bit talking about how you came to work at ODU, but let’s go ahead and start over again.
Tucker: Okay. Well I came here in 1991 and it was a long process but I had been working for the Hunton YMCA as the acting director. And one day my director or chairman of the board called and said, “You’re going to get a telephone call from the new president at Old Dominion University. He’s looking for someone to do community relations.” And he said, when he described what he wanted that person to do, “It was you. I knew immediately. And so I had to be honest and say that” But he said, “I don’t want you to take the job because we need you here.” And so I was really surprised. To make a long story short, I waited a long time. I never got that call. And then I continued to read that the University was in the process of cutting back because of budget problems, so I decided they’re not going to do this, so that was the end of that. Then one day, he called and said that he would like me to come over and talk about this position, that my name had come up a couple of times from both the majority and the minority communities, and that he’d be interested in talking to me about it. And so I came over to Old Dominion University and he told me what he had in mind. He told me that all the neighborhoods around the University had turned their backs on Old Dominion, and Old Dominion had turned its back to them. There were all kinds of problems and then there were significant problems in the African American community with Old Dominion University. And he felt that I could come in and perhaps heal those relationships. And that’s what he presented to me initially, and then, of course, he said that there would be other kinds of duties that would be assigned to that particular person that is working with the larger communities, legislative groups, alumni relations, the recruitment of faculty and staff, and the like, and so… but immediately he wanted somebody to work with the neighborhoods. So the process had begun, that is, I started to think about it. And I thought, okay, I’ll give it a try. And the people at the Hunton Y were incensed, “How can you do this?” You know, “We need you over here!” I was there doing fundraising for them, then became the acting director, and we had not finished fundraising. And so I felt a little guilty about sort of turning my back on this black YMCA that had financial difficulties. Then I started to talk about it to people in the community, and my god, “You don’t have any business going to Old Dominion University! They just want to use you!” You know, “You need to be helping Norfolk State." And I said, “Norfolk State has not asked me for my help.” So I went back again to talk to Dr. Koch. He said, “You can check me out” and you know. And I said to myself “Yeah, I will, because I know you have checked me out.” Because I had started to get calls from people saying, you know, “Somebody spoke to me the other day about you,” and so forth. And so I thought, “Okay, I’m going to check him out.” But I really didn’t have anybody to check him out with, you know, because he had come here from Montana. I didn’t know anybody, but somehow my gut told me that what he said he was sincere about. And I thought, “Okay, I can do some good over there – a lot of good. And so I’m going to do it.” And so, of course, we had to go through the process of elimination. It came down to two people, and I eventually got the position. And that’s when the community started to talk about me really. I had betrayed them. I had gone to Old Dominion. You know, “They don’t want you over there anyway. They’re just going to use you,” and all of that. And I continue to say today that some of the very people who criticized me during that time; their own children came here and graduated. And that’s one of the best feelings that I have is that things changed so dramatically that they were now willing to let their children come over here. In the beginning, when I came, Karen, if I were to invite African-Americans to this campus for anything – basketball game, concert, lecture – they won’t come. And slowly I was able to get groups coming, and at a certain point several years later people were actually calling me. “Can you get me a ticket for this?” or “Can I go to that concert?” or whatever. They didn’t know where Webb Center was. They didn’t know anything, because they had not been welcomed on this campus.
Vaughan: Right and this campus had a segregation policy...
Tucker: That’s correct.
Vaughan: If an African-American applied, they would be told to go to Norfolk State.
Tucker: That’s correct and…
Vaughan: So it has a long history, I guess.
Tucker: Long history. And Dr. Koch was adamant about that. We were going to change the image because that’s what he said to me when he called to let me know that I had been selected. He said, “Do you remember what you told me?” And I don’t think I told you this, but during the interview process, he asked me what my thoughts were about Old Dominion. You know, I said, “It’s an institution for whites on the other side of town.” And so he said to me, “I want you to come here and help change that image.” And so then we had this other problem of these neighborhoods that… particularly Lambert’s Point. The people who lived there and by the way I had a roommate whose relatives all lived in Lambert’s Point and every Sunday after church they would come to our apartment. And that’s all they talked about was whose house got taken the last week and whose was up and all this sort of thing because the University was expanding and they expanded into that community. Those people had no voice and therefore they just did with them what they wanted. They just ran rough shod over them. So I was familiar with what was going on over here, and many other people felt that they didn’t get fair market value for their homes. Their families were displaced. And so there were very hard feelings. Not only that, but kids being kids, they would come on campus and do things – mischievous things, maybe even worse than mischievous things – but the University had a policy “No African American kid could just run around on this campus.” And so there were those very, very hard feelings that they had. Then over here in Larchmont and Edgewater, I guess things had been going on for a long time – problems with students, but particularly when the University decided they were going to put Greek sorority houses and fraternity houses in that community. The people didn’t know anything about it. They woke up one morning and there’s this news in the newspaper. And of course they didn’t like that. And that was a problem that they had and then Highland Park, it was always parties and vandalism and… with the students and so forth and so. My job was to try to change all of that.
Vaughan: [Laughter] No small task, right?
Tucker: No small task. And we did do it slowly and surely. We really started in Lambert’s Point by allowing them to hold their civic league meetings on the campus, which they still do to this day. And I provide for them a small repast at each meeting. And the other thing I did was to put together a summer program for the children who live over there. They don’t have any structured activity during the summer and no real facilities except for the Larchmont Rec. Center across the street over here which is really just inadequate but it’s some place that they can go. And so it’s an academic program and it is recreational. And it is free to these kids from grades 4 thru 9. The Rec. program we run in cooperation with Norfolk Redevel- I’m sorry, Norfolk Parks and Rec. and therefore kids can come through my program and go to that program which is an all day recreation program. And they used to go swimming, but the swimming pool that we used here on the campus, they closed it down. But they’d go on field trips and they have little games and arts and crafts and that sort of thing.
Vaughan: So that… so that program is still continuing…
Tucker: Yeah. The summer program… the Lambert’s Point summer program still goes on to this day. And as I said we have an academic program which is reading and computer literacy.
Vaughan: Who teaches those?
Tucker: Well from time to time it has changed. Over time it has changed. We’ve had college professors. We’ve had Norfolk High School teachers. As a matter of fact, Pat White who’s one of the Norfolk 17 taught in the program. She taught advanced biology one summer. We’ve had graduate students from Old Dominion. So it has over time had a variety of backgrounds teaching those kids, but it has always to my mind been very important that the students see African Americans in that role on campus. And so where I’ve been able to I’ve tried to do that. I’ve tried to hire them. But this summer coming up we’re gonna do something different, and we have two graduate students from the Darden College and they are going to do reading differently. They’re going to approach it differently. And it’s an exciting opportunity for the kids as well as for the graduate students and so we’ll see how that goes. But we also provide basketball camps; you know where the kids get to live on the campus for a week. And another very exciting program for the kids is the Sea Camp which is run by the Oceanography Department. And that’s where the kids go out to the various waters and pick up specimens and examine those and learn about their habitat and all that sort of thing.
Vaughan: Are these programs open to all students--all children in the area or just the…
Tucker: Just the Lambert’s Point kids. We get some Park Place kids, but we also… and this was the thought of Dr. Koch. I have to credit him with this. The dependents of our hourly and classified employees, and I want you to know that they are a very important part of this. They want every summer for their kids to be involved in these programs because one, they know it’s a structured program and the kids are right here with them. It’s free and it’s good. And so those are the kids who are in that--those programs. So we’ve done that and we’ve worked with the Larchmont and I had better stop here and go back because another very important part I’ve left out with the summer program that Dr. Koch also helped put together… we talked to Norfolk Southern. They’re also a neighbor. And Dr. Koch had said to me, “You know, they--they’re neighbors and we ought to get them involved and so they have endowed a scholarship so students who go through this program in any phase – whether it’s just recreation, whether it’s academic or whatever – as long as they have been in a program, when they have finished high school they can apply to Old Dominion University. And if they have all the other credentials that are required and there is a need, we provide two scholarships per year. So that, that over a period of years has been very good it--it’s been difficult getting these kids through though. I’ll have to tell you that. But nevertheless I think over a period of time we have graduated about five kids from the Lambert’s Point Summer Program. But going back now to Larchmont and the Edgewater community, they have lots of complaints about noise, about parties, things for example garbage trucks backing up you know four o’clock in the morning, five o’clock in the morning, yelling, throwing garbage cans and so forth. They have young kids who are trying to sleep and all of this and heretofore when these problems would arise they would call, but they didn’t get any real answers. And so, whenever they call, I immediately go to whoever the person would be who could do something about it and, and for the most part it works. One problem we had here recently had to do with the new football stadium that they’re building. After awhile they started to turn the lights on in the Foreman Field and they’d leave them on all night long. Well those lights in--right in the bedrooms. It’s just like it's daylight.
Vaughan: Right.
Tucker: And I went to the appropriate people and they said to me, “Well those lights are there because we have had problems of vandalism and that sort of thing and we’ve had to do that for security reasons,” but the people don’t want to hear that. “Well that’s not our--we don’t have anything to do with that. Our kids want to go to sleep,” or “We want to go to sleep.” So eventually that died away. We also have another serious problem over there now; the--lots of parents will buy homes in that community and put their kids in there for the duration of their college years. And the kids will invite other kids to live in there and it’s nothing but a 24 hour a day party. And so yeah all--I mean it’s not just one house its lots of houses over there. And so it’s a code violation and we’ve had to stay on top of that with the city and oh it’s been awful.
Vaughan: So pretty much when any of those complaints come through, they go through you because…
Tucker: Well, a lot of them do. I’m sure a lot of them go to Student Affairs too. But people in the neighborhood if they know me they will call me because it’s really kind of interesting. I’m not listed at all in the telephone directory – either in the city directory or the Old Dominion…
Vaughan: Right. I notice your e-mail address is on the page for Community Relations, but not your phone number.
Tucker: Oh yeah. [Laughter] I don’t know what that’s all about, but at any rate they manage to find me.
Vaughan: Okay. That’s good.
Tucker: And in Highland Park it’s, you know, just constant partying and I remember one summer some man called me and said, “Listen, those students come over here this week--I mean this weekend partying and urinating on my property and all that.“ He said, “I’m not responsible for what I will do.” So I had to immediately call the Old Dominion University Police and ask them to please be on guard because I didn’t want anything explosive to happen in it. I don’t know. I guess they got through the weekend okay, but that’s the kind of behavior over there. Some house, it was designated a fraternity house, although the fraternity doesn’t own it, it’s just that the fraternity brothers year after year after year live in there, and that was a big nuisance. I mean they would have parties in there with hundreds of kids.
Vaughan: Yeah. I guess it’s difficult though because if somebody is buying a house next door to a university, what do they think?
Tucker: That’s right, abs--you know…
Vaughan: But then again the way the University has expanded, if the people have lived there, you know, already for a long time, that’s difficult.
Tucker: That’s right, but there’s been a great change, especially in Lambert’s Point. The city came in with the help of people from the University and started to try to put that community back together because I’m telling you I walked behind a city official who was talking to an Old Dominion University official. And what the city official was saying to the Old Dominion official was that they had planned to just let that community die. You know and it was like I can’t believe you all are not going to go on and finish expanding down there. And so that official said, “No! We’re not going to go into Old Dominion--I mean into Lambert’s Point.” And so from that point forward they started trying to do the streetlights and the curbing and the garbage pickup and you know it just started to turn around. There’s still a lot to be done over there, but they also made it possible for the citizens to get low interest loans so that they could improve their housing and that sort of thing. So it looks a lot better. Yeah. Some stability is there.
Vaughan: Okay, let’s see what questions [inaudible] …a lot of this. We covered a lot of this. One--let’s see, one question I have is do… the job that you took… how has your job changed since you started?
Tucker: Over time, well, I don’t have to do all of the healing that I did in the beginning with the neighborhoods. That sort of feeds on itself. I worked very closely with all the civic league presidents and the relationship is such that when the University got ready to expand to the other side of Hampton Boulevard, there were very few dissenters from the communities. Of course, there are always people who don’t want you to change anything, but we got the approval of all the communities to go ahead and make that move and so I feel very, very lucky about that and so I stay on top of that situation. Anything we are doing new, for example football is coming, you know, that’s going to present a lot of challenges. We’ve already started to meet with the civic league presidents letting them know how parking is going to impact the community. We bring them in on the ground floor. We don’t try to, you know, just here’s… lay it all out there, you know, if they want changes and we can work within that, we do. So that has changed. Let’s see, what else can I say? I, I, I do more outreach for the University that is I am involved with so many community based organizations. The American Red Cross, the 200 Plus Men, which is an organization for young African American men, the Hunton YMCA; I’m on that board; I’m involved with the Rotary; I’m involved--did I say the American Red Cross? It’s about 15 or 20 of them that I go to on a regular basis. And just to bring the presence of the University into the larger community. I remember… this is an aside… but when Dr. Koch was president, he said to me one day at a certain hour, I’d guess maybe let’s say 4:00… “I’m expecting the governor.” And he said, “But there is going to be someone in my office prior to his visit. And so that person is kind of hard to, you know, let them finish talking so at a certain time I want you to come in here and knock on the door to let me know that now is, you know, the governor’s coming.” So I was excited about that, you know, so at that precise moment I went and knocked on that door and he came to the door and opened the door and there was the governor already seated there. [Laughter] And so he said, “Well, CeCe have you met Governor Wilder?” And I said, “Yes, I’ve met him on several occasions.” And he said, “Oh yes. Oh yes.” “So would you like to join us?” Well I just about died. [Laughter] “Oh what am I doing in here?” So I just sat there and to this day I cannot tell you what they were talking about. I was just so… I could not believe that I was sitting there in this big meeting between the president of Old Dominion and the governor of Virginia. So when the meeting ended, there were people in other offices right outside of the president’s office, and so they were all peeping. That was so funny. So then, the governor left and he said--I said to him “What was that all about?” He said, “I want him to remember you. Whenever he sees you, he’ll know you’re from Old Dominion University and you can approach him, you know.” Well I would have done that anyway. That’s me. But that is the truth. I don’t care where I see Governor Wilder now. Of course, he’s been the mayor and all that. He always says, “How’s Old Dominion?” You know and so President Koch was good at that. He knew how to make those kinds of things happen. So when I go places in the community now, they look at me, I’m Old Dominion. I am Old Dominion University. Anything that comes up where I can talk about Old Dominion at the meeting, I do. I take brochures and basketball schedules and things like that to those meetings and I’m Old Dominion. So that’s the lesson I learned there.
Vaughan: Okay, one thing I was curious about is your own impressions of ODU, of the campus, of the people here when you started, knowing about our reputation for segregation, and then how has that changed for you when you first started, the impressions of how people treated you or …
Tucker: Oh, I was treated very, very well – very, very well. And I would have to say, with a few exceptions, I’m still treated very, very well. There are occasions when, you know, something comes up, but I’ve learned how to deal with those things over time. But when I would walk into a room, Karen, when I first came here, I’d walk out and I’d say “I was the only Black in that room.” But do you know, I’m being very honest, today I have to always think “Were there any Black people in that meeting?” Because people just kind of over time it just changes. You just know that Karen was in there and Ginny was in there. You know, it’s a good thing. I mean and I… I guess other people go through this too, but I don’t see things in black and white like that. But now there are occasions, and I--where I keep my eyes open for that kind of thing. That is that when we’re being presented before the public, I don’t ever like to walk into a situation where there are all white students and no Blacks where there’s a brochure that has--and I remember once we were going to go over to Booker T Washington High School. It was the dean of students or the vice president for student services and maybe a president, I can’t remember, but we were all gonna go over there and they had all these brochures that had--I didn’t see one black face on it. I said, “What would encourage them to think there’s a place for them, if they can’t see themselves?” And so that’s what I pay attention to. Are we represented in all of the media around here, if there are film or whatever. I was at an event, and I won’t give you the name, two events as a matter of fact, this past week ... huge, city-wide, large minority population at both events and in both cities and not one Black, not even the honor corp. none of that. I mean, that should not happen. And you know what? It’s not deliberate. That’s the unfortunate part I have discovered. People just don’t think about something like that. It’s just asking you, you, you, you, you, you, these are people I know. I don’t know you, so I don’t ask you. So… and, and, and that’s true throughout society. I was at another event. I won’t say the name of it – little kids and I watched the interaction of the little black kids as they walked up. Nobody says, “How was your weekend?” or “That’s a cute dress.” You know, they’re just standing there, but the interaction is with all of the other kids. So then how do you think this kid begins to feel about herself? I’m not special. I’m not important. And those are subtle things, but they send strong messages to kids. And that is why I make it my business when I see young African American kids on the campus – go over and talk to ‘em. “Where are you from?” You know, “how are you doing in school?’ And you know, “I’m proud of you and all,” especially young African American males. I let ‘em know how happy I am that they made the decision to go on to college and make something of themselves, but anyway that’s not what you’re asking.
Vaughan: No, that’s okay. That’s good. Tell me how do you think the Black community views ODU now?
Tucker: Oh. They love it. Oh, they love it. You know, because at one time it was not their university. The alums even, the Black alums, did not claim Old Dominion because they had bad experiences over here. And I may have said this to you and I may not have because somebody’s interviewed me recently about similar things, but we had a black board member who was incensed when he found out that Old Dominion had a Black alumni office or association. And maybe you didn’t know that. Yeah, they do. He said, “Why would you do that?” All of this time, we’re trying to become a part of… now you want to separate yourself from. But the whole idea was to give these people an opportunity to come back to campus, experience some things so that they would begin to embrace Old Dominion, because all they did was come to class, go home or go wherever… they didn’t want…
Vaughan: Yeah.And so that exists right now?
Tucker: Oh yeah. Mmm-hmm. Yeah. There is a Black alumni association. And over time, you know, the Black alums, they’re proud to say they’re from Old Dominion, but they’ll be quick to tell you how difficult it was.
Vaughan: And so do they participate in the regular alumni things?
Tucker: Yes they do. Yes they do.
Vaughan: Okay, so they have…
Tucker: You know, my husband is a graduate of the University of Michigan or he was. He’s deceased now. But they had a huge Black alumni association for the very same reason.
Vaughan: And you went there also, right?
Tucker: I did.
Vaughan: Were you in that association?
Tucker: Oh, no. No. But lots of schools do because people just didn’t feel a part of, and now they’re trying to heal and find ways to heal. And they’ve done it that way.
Vaughan: It makes sense.
Tucker: Yeah.
Vaughan: Let me ask you--you talked a lot about Dr. Koch, but--so you’ve worked with three different presidents now, Dr. Koch, Dr. Runte, and Dr. Broderick. Are there any impressions that you’d like to share about the leadership of ODU?
Tucker: Well, I can just say that I guess Dr. Koch is the person who brought me onto the campus, and so I will be forever grateful. I think he stepped out to do some things that were different from what had been done formerly here at the University. And I’m just so happy that he brought me along with that. As far as diversity is concerned, I do believe that he got that ball rolling. He’s the one that made it possible that today Old Dominion is the largest… has the largest, diverse population in the state of Virginia and that’s because he just insisted that we were going to have to do this. He said, “The world is changing. You just can’t have all one group of people here, and a sprinkling of Blacks and other minorities here and there. That’s not the way the world is today,” and so I give him credit for that and as I said for giving me the opportunity to be involved in so many of those initiatives. I mean we never had a dinner, Karen, in his home that there weren’t African-Americans and other minorities present. Now Dr. Runte was different. She, She appreciated all of that, but her push for that kind of thing was not the same as his. Maybe she thought we had it rolling, you know, and the like. But she was very supportive of things that I had to do in and around the community, but was not quite the same as that of Dr. Koch. And, of course, John Broderick, I’ve known him since he first came here. He is wonderful. I don’t know how, but if it is at all possible, I would love to see him as president of Old Dominion University. I mean he’s just wonderful and he’s always been inclusive. I mean even when he was way down the totem pole, he would always hire minorities. You know, I have been to certain parts of certain cities and walked down the halls and all of the people in there are the same. But people don’t understand that that sends a message right there. John Broderick was different. Right from the beginning, he wanted to make it inclusive, and that’s the way he is. He’s responsible for the honorary degrees of the two alumnae that we had who were Norfolk 17. Just lots of things like that.
Vaughan: Would you say we still have far to go in healing racial…?
Tucker: Oh. I think we’ve come a long way. We still have some things that we have to--some images—some--Karen, you know what? I don’t think some of these things will ever go away. I don’t. But I think it’s becoming less and less important – less and less important. I mean to see the President of the United States now African-American. That just tells you the mindset of the American people – that we’re no longer, you know, “You will never, ever!” You know that kind of thing. And so I think--I mean you see college presidents who are now becoming--who are African-American and deans and vice presidents and that sort of thing. I think these things are changing, and definitely here on this campus. I will have to say however that I do see an erosion in the presence of minorities at events. And Karen, I will tell you something. I will confess something. I will admit something. One of the reasons that I run so hard is that often times when I find out there’s an event, and we don’t have but one or two African-Americans, or maybe none, I will, I will go. Just so that...
Vaughan: … there’s representation. Well, what kind of events? Are there a certain type of events do you think? Is this just…
Tucker: Concerts. Dinners. You know, just… we’re not… we’re just not there. There’s no big push to push us there. And so when I find that out, I just, I just go.
Vaughan: So you’re busy. [inaudible] … talked about when you sleep. [Laughter] I’m going to switch a little and because I’m a librarian, I have to thank you for serving on the board and being a member of the Friends of the ODU Library. What was your interest in this group? And how did you get involved?
Tucker: Well to be honest with you I don’t know who nominated me, but somebody just nominated me and I can’t… but it was--it was a--I have an affinity for libraries anyway. My, my senior year in college, I, I spent in the library. I love books. I’m not going to say that I’m that well read because these days I open a book and I’m sleeping within the next ten minutes. [Laughter] But I have always had an interest in books and for that reason being on this board has been very meaningful for me.
Vaughan: It’s nice to have you there.
Tucker: Thank you.
Vaughan: Tell me where do you feel you’ve made your biggest contribution at ODU?
Tucker: That’s a very good question, but I would probably say in changing the image of a white institution to an institution for all people.
Vaughan: That’s good. Do you want to comment on your biggest contribution in your life outside of ODU?
Tucker: My three children. Yeah. I think… I’m very proud of the fact that I had three children. It was not easy, but I did it. That’s my biggest accomplishment.
Vaughan: Is there anything else you wanted to talk about that we didn’t cover in this interview?
Tucker: There was something I was thinking about a minute ago as we were talking and I have lost it. I cannot think of it at this moment.
Vaughan: Okay, so if there’s nothing else, I thank you very much. This has been a very interesting interview.
Tucker: Thank you. I am just humbled that the University, particularly the Library, saw fit to hear what I had to say about things.
