Additional Webb interviews ...

[Transcript continued from January 21, 1975]

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Sweeney: Meeting again today with former president Lewis W. Webb, Jr., of Old Dominion University. First of all, there were a couple of questions from last time down at the end which we didn’t get to. First of all, was the education building financed in its entirety by the state, or did private funds play a role in its construction?

Webb: No, that was entirely financed by the state with the exception of some small gifts for special interior decorating, but the building itself was totally financed by the state.

Sweeney: Could you tell me about--how did you react to the new emphasis on education, especially higher education, in Governor Godwin’s first administration? Did you believe that at long last the state of Virginia might be willing to fund this college in a manner which was consonant with its needs?

Webb: No, frankly, I did not. I know the state of Virginia, having been born here and worked in education all of my life, that no sudden abrupt turnabout was going to happen. I did hope that we would get more consideration in our work here because it was obviously needed and, I think too, the publicity that it garnered in giving the Governor support to this idea of really first—class education for all the citizens would help us in the long run. And I guess it did, but it certainly wasn’t any about—face and suddenly we know the needs and we’re going to meet them. It just didn’t happen.

Sweeney: Did you find that in the 1960’s you had to expand your personal staff to meet the greater demands of the growing college?

Webb: If you mean my personal staff by means of secretaries, assistants and things of that type, I did try to get an assistant, but the funds provided were only sufficient to really engage another secretary. And, as a result, I was only able to get assistance by bringing in one of my former retired faculty members that could afford to work for $7,000. And, this kind of business doesn’t give me a great deal of

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help because I couldn’t really turn over work to them of a nature that would relieve me. And, whereas it probably helped the office to run a little more smoothly, it wasn’t like a vice—president. It was simply another first—class secretary that I was able to add to the list.

Sweeney: Did the civic clubs, for example, the Kiwanis and the Lions, continue their support of the college throughout the 1960’s?

Webb: I think they not only continued to support but increased their support somewhat. See, that was the real thrust that we had, was to involve people in this community with Old Dominion. The more involvement we could get with more people, the more support we would get and the more interest these people would have in sending their own children here and in giving us support. Yes, the Lions continued their help, and the Kiwanis, with the Speech and Hearing Center, in giving scholarships, in giving some faculty assistance, in giving equipment. The Cosmopolitans, for example, gave the Geology Department a seismograph to help them in their work and in locating underground structures and things of that type. The Rotary Club gave a supplementary check to the Dean of Engineering to help us get the salary of the Dean of Engineering up to where we could attract a top-flight person in engineering. And the Engineers Club of Hampton Roads increased their scholarship. So, all of this work was an attempt not really to get funds but to get them involved. And the more involvement they had, the more interest they had in this university.

Sweeney: Two questions about a faculty addition in the 1960’s. How were you able to attract Professor Alex Jackson of Norfolk State’s Art Department to Old Dominion College? And was the addition of a black faculty member well received in the school and in the community?

Webb: The way we got Jackson was simply that, as a professional practicing artist, he was familiar with the work of Mr. Sibley and others on our own Art Department. And they tipped me off that Jackson was going to leave Norfolk State and go elsewhere, that he was unsatisfied, dissatisfied, with the conditions in which he worked. I talked to Jackson and told him very frankly I could not touch him as long as he was associated with Norfolk State and we had a gentleman’s agreement that our state institutions would not proselyte or try to get faculty one institution from another. And, if he was definitely separated and had resigned in writing,

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then I’d talk with him. And he said he would, and did, and he came to talk to me. I think the main way we got him was that we showed him that we were willing to work with him closely and give him some freedom in his art work. I helped him locate a home that would be suitable for him. And, of course, at that time this was strictly a white neighborhood. He understood the conditions very frankly. He said, I am not interested in block busting. I’m interested in finding a suitable home, and if you can find that, and if it’s in a black neighborhood, it won’t bother me, but I must have a suitable home, which we were able to find without the block busting. Another concession that we made to him —- he needed, he said, for his professional work a studio, not one in the laboratory where his work would be under constant surveillance of the students and would be in the way and block up space, but he wanted a place he could have of his own and lock the door when he got through. So I was able to find a little home that the city picked up as part of their expansion for the future of the college and made the agreement with the city so that we rented the place from the city, I think for 15 or 20 dollars a month. It was just a question of paying insurance on the place and to keep it from being torn to pieces until they were ready to remove it. And he’s used that little home continuously. In fact, I got a call last week from the college asking about the conditions under which he was given permission to operate the place, and I think he is still there. But it gives him a place off campus but yet right adjoining the campus where he can go between classes anytime and do his work. Now Jackson was well received; our faculty welcomed the addition of a black and there was no problem whatsoever. In fact, the Board of Visitors, I told them I was working to get him, encouraged me to try to sign him up. And so I’d say, on the whole, I didn’t get any, not a single complaint from the faculty or students or even from the town itself about the additionof...Dr.--Mr. Alex Jackson as the professor of art.

Sweeney: In the mid to late 1960’s, did you make special efforts to attract black students to Old Dominion College?

Webb: No, I don’t want to say I did because that wouldn’t be fair. I never made a special effort to attract any group. We made efforts to attract students from this area. The only thing I did do was to consult with my admissions staff and let them know very plainly that we must have every door open to the black student and that

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every consideration be given. If they met the minimum standards they were certainly to be encouraged to sign up, but as for going out into the black community and trying to do that, I did not. You may think this to be strange, but it isn’t. This is the way we--I analyzed the situation. Norfolk State, which was attempting to grow and definitely serving a need of the black community, was having difficulty maintaining a good calibre of students. As I’ve said in ferver, in questions some time ago, that examination of the students enrolled at Norfolk State (from the College Board Examination only, I'm talking now) was very low. The range fell way into the lower part of our student body. And I realize that the students that we would get, if we went after them, would be again the upper group which was already being heavily solicited by Northern schools, and schools with scholarships. And if we did go and extract their top quality students, it would do considerable harm to the institution. So, I purposely did not try to solicit those students away from Norfolk State.

Sweeney: In 1967, you announced that Old Dominion College would join with the Virginia Associated Research Center (VARC) as soon as the graduate engineering program matured. Two questions on this: could you explain the significance of this connection? And, how did it improve our engineering program?

Webb: This is a rather involved question you ask, and I will try to give you as short an answer as I can but yet, we must go back. The original conception of VARC was conceived by the College of William and Mary. At that time we were part of the College of William and Mary, and the idea was to place this facility near the NASA or Langley Field operation there, where a student could attend classes away from the campus but yet, be given resident credit. And initially the idea was that this would be in the field of science, and William and Mary having been approved and supported by NASA for the development of their physics department in the high energy work, and this was one of the chief needs for VARC, and also there was also a need in the field of engineering. So, William and Mary plans for developing this were learned by the University of Virginia, and they realized immediately the dangers that would be involved if William and Mary could establish a graduate program there in physics, science, and engineering, which would detract from what they were doing because, at that time, the University was searching hard to find students in graduate level of the sciences and engineering. And so they went to the legislature, to the Governor or to the administrative officials of the state and headed off this thing of William

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and Mary and focused attention on it to such an extent that a compromise was made in which William and Mary, VPI, and the University of Virginia designed a corporate structure, it was designed for the three to operate this facility. Part of the facility being the complex of the cyclotron and the other part the VARC part. This thing could never work, as I predicted, it would not work and, sure enough, the University of Virginia, William and Mary, and VPI have never worked together, and they never worked together on this one, and the thing almost fell on its face, and so much controversy and lack of cooperation among the three that the state finally took it away and reassigned it entirely to the College of William and Mary. This gave us a chance to get in. Now, I tried to get in on the initial group of VPI, University of Virginia, and William and Mary but was not permitted to take part at that time because we did not have any graduate programs. And they used that as an excuse not to bring in VMI and other schools that might want to get into this consortium, but after it was turned back to William and Mary, we were in the graduate program level. And so, I made a big effort to be included in that we could offer the engineering work. Engineering work being offered at VARC was being offered as work from, extension work, from VPI and from University of Virginia. This was not satisfactory and was considerable criticism of these institutions for giving residents credit, graduate resident credit, when the student did not attend classes on campus. We were able to sell them on the idea that Old Dominion was within commuting distance with these men that didn’t have to leave their work and spend time away from their jobs, they could do it in the afternoon or evenings, and so on. And so, this really was the salvation to keep our graduate program in engineering going until it could develop on its own. We needed part—time students, NASA had them, which meant they could be taught at VARC, and so that is the reason that I pushed hard to get our programs at VARC and push back the University of Virginia and VPI from having just little fly—by—night courses and part—time courses -- extension work in this area, which would prevent the development of our graduate program. And we were very successful in doing this, and the engineering school had to get moving quickly and gear up with faculty and laboratory equipment for meeting the needs of the teaching at VARC.

Sweeney: Now, I have several questions which are lumped together on one subject here, and you can respond to them as you see them

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in front of you. In the spring of 1967, the Students for a Democratic Society Chapter Newsletter was confiscated for obscenity and banned on campus for the rest of the semester. I’m wondering how strong that chapter was on the campus, how well that action was received, the official reasons for the ban, then also the faculty advisor of the SDS, the history professor by the name of Dr. Lauren Selden, denounced the ban and appealed to the faculty senate and the Board of Visitors. I wondered what your impressions were of Selden and his motives in stirring this up and whether any students were suspended?

Webb: First, to answer your question whether the students were suspended: no, they were not suspended. They were sharply criticized, taken to task by the Dean of Students, but they were not suspended. This action by this Democrats--Democrats for--what's it called--Society, SDS, was a very small organization. Each student organization is required on campus to file a list of their members and this organization being no different if it wanted to be recognized, filed a list of its members. And it was, if my memory serves me correctly, something in the neighborhood of 25 members. Ultimately, we found that this was a false number because, when this thing came out concerning the obscenity in the newsletter, we called a meeting of the group, and we found that at least 10 of them denied that they were a member and that their name had been put on by other SDS members simply because they had attended a meeting at which they were...the meeting was advertised on a bulletin board, and anyone interested in this type of thing would come, and they came to listen, and their names were put on the list. So I'd say in all 12 to 15 students were the heart of the core, the hard core, of the SDS. These students were whipped into enthusiasm by Dr. Selden. You asked me about him and my impression of him. My impression of him is very much that he was a leftist with very strong leftist leanings. I am not saying that he was a Communist, but I am certainly not saying that he wasn’t because I have no reason to believe that he was not, but he attempted through this group and other ways to stir up controversy among the students. We were fortunate that he obtained another job for the Virginia (not your director, what the title would have been) of the Virginia chapter of the (what is that organization?) American Civil Liberties; I should remember them, they met with me several times. And when the paper came out, Dr. Whitehurst, who was the Dean at that time, picked

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that group up. He saw them in the big pile, and he simply picked them up and called me later in the day and told me that he had done so. I didn’t realize that he had done it, but I read the paper and I too felt that he had done quite right in picking up the paper. It was very obscene, and at that time I saw no point in it. There was no reason; it did not add to the education process of this student body in any way, shape, or form. It was just downright obscene and anti-American in its tone, and I felt that he should probably have picked it up. The... Selden did protest to the student--the senate, the faculty senate. I got reactions, of course, immediately from the faculty, a few very strong, in fact, there should be absolutely no supervision or no withholding of freedom of press. Others just as, more, I’d say, objected to us allowing that material to be distributed here on campus. In fact, the Civil Liberties Union asked for an audience with me to discuss the matter, and they came, and I gave them the time. They asked me what objections I had, and I said I object to the language. I see no point in the four—letter words which were used. They said, "Well, people use these." I said, "No doubt they do. I don’t use them in my home, at my dinner table. I don’t want my children, my wife, or anybody else to listen to them, and I don’t think you would want yours." They said, "Oh no, you don’t know what this is printed, you don’t have to say it. I don’t see a point in it, it doesn’t have to illustrate a point, it doesn’t help in any way. He said, "well, in order to avoid the question of freedom of the press, why don’t you just let them have a table and put a sign over the table saying take this literature at your own risk." I said, "No, you’re wasting your time and mine. I’m not going to do that. If they want to go over to Gray’s Pharmacy and set up a table, and they’ll let them distribute the thing, help themselves. I am not going to allow them to distribute this mess on the campus." And they went away very unhappy, as you may be sure, but I still don’t think their literature was adding anything to the educational facilities of the college or that of the students. Students knew those words; it weren't teaching them something new, and there was certainly no place for them.

Sweeney: The faculty senate disagreed with the administration over this question. Did you feel that the senate was accurately representing the whole faculty sentiment, and also did you notice, in the 1960’s here, what happened on many other campuses, that would be an ideological shift to the left among the faculty?

Webb: Not a great deal. Now, I think I got more faculty coming to me saying, hold the line, don’t allow this type of thing

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to take place than I did those that felt that it should be completely open to anyone to print, to say what they would like. I think there was a shift somewhat. I don’t know whether it was saying to the left or just to be a little more liberal in the thinking of the faculty, but the only real trend you could see was that the faculty were tired of war and the spending of funds for war, and many objected and joined peace movements and things like that, not as a leftist but simply because they felt that mankind could better use its energies and facilities than fighting wars. There was somewhat of an item of a shift there, but I just don’t like to say it was a shift to the left. I think it was just a plain revolt against the long periods of war and waste that the faculty observed.

Sweeney: The publication ban on the newsletter was lifted in May. I was wondering why this was done and also whether the objectionable material was reprinted in the next issue? I think, I believe it was, and if you took any action after that against the students?

Webb: Yes, we allowed them after 30 days’ suspension period to start with their newspaper--newsletter, and, of course, they deliberately ran the same article again and that’s when we took action to suspend some 10 students, I believe, that flaunted the regulations of the university. In other words, they just simply said, "We are going to do to suit ourselves;" and we had to simply say to them, "You cannot do to suit yourselves. We have certain requirements in the operation of this institution, and we are given certain charges, and we are going to maintain those. We have authority which has been given to us, and we are going to take this authority and suspend the group that feels that there should be no regulation governing their conduct, that we feel there is justification for requiring this, and therefore you are suspended." I made these suspensions active only after the date of graduation because I had two students, maybe it was four students, that were to graduate in June, and if I had suspended them as of that date they would not have gotten their degree, and I didn’t want to hurt the students that much. I felt that he had taken into his own hands and was deliberately trying to provoke the administration to prove the administration had no authority, and the administration had to show that it did have authority and had enough gumption to exercise that authority. But I, out of the kindness of my heart or whatever you want to say, I made this effective the day after graduation so that they would get their diplomas. I don’t think any of the four showed up to

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actually pick up their diplomas, but they all left instructions for it to be mailed to them so that they could graduate.

Sweeney: You’ve spoken already about the new Physical Education Building, and there are two questions here. Perhaps you have already answered the first one. Did you fear that the new Physical Education Building might lead to an over-emphasis on athletics? And, secondly, some faculty members voiced criticism of spending a considerable amount of money on a Physical Education building when several of the academic departments were housed in inadequate, temporary quarters. I was wondering how you answered this criticism?

Webb: Well, no matter what action you take you’ll get some criticism, and that wasn’t unexpected. However, with most of the reasonable faculty, and most of the faculty were very reasonable, they knew that there was a great need for a new Physical Education Building. The one we had and were using was designed for 500 students. Completely overpowered, we had no locker space, we couldn't schedule the physical education program--the regular program, and so there’s no question that there was a greater need for that than there was for classroom facilities. We had perhaps some departments not quite adequately housed, but they did have a place, and they had classrooms. And phys. ed. [physical education] did not. So I don’t think we...the objections were very strong. Anyone would like to have a new music building and a new art building, or whatever it might be, but phys. ed. [physical education], in everyone’s estimation that really studied the situation, said, "This is your big priority." The students must have a place...to meet to do their thing, to get their exercise, and you know this is not an athletic building. It is strictly designed as a physical education building. There is nothing in the building that’s really designed to promote athletics in that sense. The playing floor for the basketball is certainly not an ideal place, as you will see. Tonight, the game is being moved to Scope, and there is insufficient seating, and the seating is uncomfortable, but we... (end of tape).

Sweeney: In 1967, you decided to step down from the presidency of Old Dominion College. I was wondering why you had made this decision and if the increasing militancy of some faculty members had any significance or any role in your decision?

Webb: Probably, but not very much. The militant faculty were a very small number. I knew them all, and I still maintain friendly relations with them. They naturally irritate, but

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the whole job of president is irritating, and I gave considerable long—range thought to this thing of going back to teaching. I knew I could stay in as president until I was 65 years of age and at that time retire. But then my idea would have been to go back to teaching, but, of course, no one wants you to go back to teaching at 65. So I thought if I could get out before I was 60 then I could have at least 10 years to give to some college or university in the form of teaching. Teaching, to me, of course, is the most fun, the most enjoyable thing. I’ve done it long enough to know that before I went into administration. So it was easy for me to evaluate administration vs. teaching, and I could see the teaching had the greater advantages. Of course, in the administration I enjoyed a great deal of that, but when the university got to the size where I had very little contact with the students because I was too busy with the problems. The problem student, yes, but not the normal student. The faculty was so large that I had very limited contact with the faculty. My enjoyment is contact with people, and when you work with just a handful daily, and the problems are the only things that you handle with those few, it is not a great deal of enjoyment in it. When they were building the institution, in planning, developing, that was one thing, but after the institution was basically planned, 90% planned, and I could see that it was not going to be killed off, it was substantial and going on its own power. No one person, no group of persons is going to stop it now. It has the initiative, it has the inertia to carry itself on. It has the power base to generate its own continuation. So I looked forward to the teaching again, and I must say I have enjoyed it. And I was not disappointed in finding out when I got back to teaching that it was different. I enjoyed getting back to teaching. I missed certain things in the administration, but when you get to work at 8:00 in the morning and leave at five and then come back at seven and continue, the only thing you are doing is putting out small fires, to answer criticism, to work problems, 24 years of that is enough for any one man and I think I made the right decision to go back to teaching.

Sweeney: Could you comment on Mrs. Slover’s bequest of shares in Landmark Publications that allowed pay supplements to salaries to be made to the oceanography professors?

Webb: This was, of course, the work of Mr. Batten. Mr. Batten and I worked very closely in developing the program in oceanography. He was convinced that oceanography was the one program this institution could develop and be different from the other state institutions and develop some character of its own.

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So, he was the one that secured from Mrs. Slover the bequest of the shares of Landmark Publications, and it was done deliberately to provide additional money so that we could attract topflight men in the field. If we’re going to develop oceanography, it had to be done with topflight men, and the only way to get that was to get funds. The state salary level was not sufficient to attract them, and these were the beginning of our faculty chairs. They really are not chairs because they supplement salaries that the faculty would normally get from the state and they are supplementary chairs. But Mrs. Slover’s bequest can be contributed directly to Mr. Frank Batten who was chairman of our Board.

Sweeney: In 1967, the Engineer’s Council for Professional Development accredited our Engineering School. How was it that the program received accreditation so quickly?

Webb: The program was accredited quickly simply because it was from the beginning it was--the work was devoted to bringing this about. We hired Dr. Harold Lampe, Dr. Lampe had developed and had accredited the University of Connecticut, the School of Engineering there, and he went to N. C. State and built it up from...built it to a very strong school at N. C. State. And I was able to convince him to come here and gave him a free hand and worked very closely with him to develop the educational program, to get the faculty, to get the laboratories so that as quickly as the Council on Engineering Professional Development would come to look at our program that we would be ready, and we did. I think that we obtained the accreditation at a minimum time, but it was due strictly to the work of Dr. Harold Lampe in foreseeing the obstacles we’d have and obtaining faculty, obtaining--outlining courses to develop the laboratories to meet these needs. We spent some time in visiting top—flight engineering schools around the country that had programs. These programs were developed to be entirely different from the type of engineering being offered at the University of Virginia and VPI. And the idea was sold to the State Council of Higher Education, and it was sold to the local engineers who will use these men - our products as students. So it was not just something that happened; it was something we worked hard for by Dr. Lampe.

Sweeney: What happened to the plans for the building of a Fraternity Row, by a private developer, so that the fraternities would be closer to the campus?

Webb: The developer had the land and cleared it and was in the process of getting plans for the development, but the fraternities had

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to put up, I have forgotten the amount, say $20,000 apiece to insure that they would take part in this development and that they would rent it over a period of time. We were unable to get enough of the fraternities to come forth with the financial support, and the developer did not feel that he could do it himself. In fact, the man that was going to develop it unfortunately in the next year took bankruptcy for his business, which was a plumbing—heating contracting business. And so the whole thing fell through, but we had hoped that we would get enough interest and enough support from the alumni to put at least ten of the fraternities together. The difficulty was, as you may know, that these fraternity houses were popping up all over town and generally they would put it right next to some old lady that would go to bed at nine o’clock, and, when the boys had parties, I would get constant phone calls —- keep them quiet, keep them under control —- and they were unable to get places except in residential areas. So we had hoped that this would be the solution, but unfortunately there were not enough alumni with money to come forward to support the idea, and it fell through. I still think it was not a bad idea.

Sweeney: Was Governor Mills Godwin ever considered as your possible successor as president of Old Dominion College?

Webb: I am sure the Board of Visitors considered him and probably even made some overtures to him. Governor Godwin, however, when asked by the press, said he was not considering this possibility. As you may know in reading the newspapers, he was also considered, a speculation was given that he would take over the presidency of the College of William and Mary, and neither did he do. I guess he had better sense than wanting to be a college president. I’d say yes, the Board did give some consideration to Godwin if he had been interested, but I doubt that he had interest in the job.

Sweeney: In the late 1960’s we made the decision to go into the Master’s degree in oceanography. I wonder if there are any other factors that you hadn’t mentioned already that affected this decision?

Webb: No, the decision from the beginning was that oceanography would be a Master’s program. And we didn’t see any need for oceanography on the undergraduate level. A good oceanographer had to have a basis, either a degree in physics, a degree in chemistry, a degree in biology or geology, one of the sciences. And we felt that the proper place for oceanography would be on the graduate level, and everything worked towards that end. We knew that this would be the place that we would place

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oceanography. And I think they have kept oceanography there with the exception of one or two interest courses, I’d put it that way, to let an undergraduate look into a little more in—depth what is in oceanography before he made the decision. But still, we expect a student to have a degree in science before he enters the field of oceanography.

Sweeney: What kind of research and advisory service did Old Dominion College perform for the Southeastern Virginia Regional Planning Commission?

Webb: This Virginia Regional Planning Commission represented an area—wide concept and we were able to make some contribution to them through our School of Business. Our School of Business did a number of research problems for them, for example, in housing, the need for housing, the need for housing in the naval groups and so on. And also our School of Business was able, by a study and analysis of the census, to point out trends or flow of manpower in the area. And we had in the beginning a retainer that they were paying us. The Virginia Regional Planning Commission paid the college a very nominal sum, $100 a month, simply as a retainer. And they would call, Mr. Jack Reid in the School of Business was assigned as the contact man, and they would call Mr. Reid and tell him their problems, and he would try to put together a team to do the research or get the information that they needed. I am sorry to say that they have stopped that now, at least they have taken us off of the retainer basis, and I don’t know exactly why.

Sweeney: In 1968, once again the college’s neighbors in Lamberts Point complained that no timetable for college expansion was being set up and unscrupulous real estate people were trying to instill panic among neighborhood residents so that they would sell quickly at low prices. Could you comment on this? Also, the college was criticized for not expanding north of 48th Street. I wonder if this possibility was considered and, if so, the reason why it was dismissed?

Webb: We gave consideration to expanding in all directions, on the east side of Hampton as well as on the west side of Hampton, to the north and to the south. The final result of the study, of course, clearly pointed out the only logical and reasonable way to move would be to the south, which was into the poorer section. The economics played a very important part in it, but not entirely. The property to the north of 48th Street

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was what I would call middle class housing, housing which home and lot average 25 to 30 thousand dollars and built within the last 25 to 30 years, relatively new when you consider the area to the south. The area to the south was predominantly black, not entirely but predominantly black, but never had it been decent housing. Most of it was tar paper shanties, very few with any indoor plumbing at all. If any standards, codes had been applied to the area, it would have been definitely condemned. The people living there with no central heat, many without electricity even, and mostly with outdoor plumbing. The area needed to be cleared up. We couldn’t at that time interest them in the Norfolk Redevelopment and Housing Authority because they had a big project downtown, but it was obvious that this was going to be in the near future an object of interest for the Norfolk Redevelopment and Housing which, of course, ultimately it became. And in the meantime the city of Norfolk, realizing that they were not getting any tax revenue to speak of from the area and that the streets were not paved, there was no drainage, there was no sewage in many of the areas, that something had to be done and would soon be required to be done. So the city agreed to pick up, as the residents in the area wished to sell; there was no condemnation, there was no pressure put on anyone to give up their homes. Many tried to get the city to buy simply because they wanted to get rid of the property but, as you say, unfortunately there was some unscrupulous real estate dealers that were taking advantage of it by frightening the people in the area, the ones that had a reasonable home and trying to pick up those places at a small cost. They were also building little slab—built cinderblock places in the area and renting them, knowing very well that, when we did pick it up, we would have to pay them more than they were worth. They say they had a program in which the property was appraised by three people and the average of the appraisals was decided upon and then the city would pay no more than 10% above that price. And so there was no question of taking advantage by the city or the college of these people. The difficulty came, of course, was when you bought from a person a three-bedroom place with a very inadequate kitchen, no central heating and no bath that when they moved they wanted these things. They wanted indoor plumbing; they wanted tile bathrooms, they wanted a modern kitchen and they couldn’t get it for the price that they were paid for the homes and so they did, of course, howl. But I felt, and I still believe, that we were doing these people a favor to force them out of those unsatisfactory living conditions, to require them to find another place, and in

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every case that was ever brought to my attention they moved into more adequate facilities than we forced them out of. And Redevelopment, when they came in, they set up an office that did just that —— help to relocate these people into better homes than they had here. So, moving to the south was obviously a need; it was an economical direction and, I think, a proper one to get that area cleaned up. Now, we did have a problem with communication. I knew the plans and the hopes of the timing of the movement into the area; so did some of my faculty, most of them that had any interest. Of course, the community didn’t. Those who came to me, I would explain yes, we are going to pick your property up in five years or ten years. So, when the area did raise their voice loud enough to be heard, I met with the group. We had a public meeting of the group in the homes of some of the men and women there and discussed our plans, and we drew a line and said we will not cross this line for ten years. So, if you are on this side of the line, you know that you will liable to be moved. If you are on the other side, you can feel safe for ten years. Another line would be for 25 years. And so they were told a development plan.

Sweeney: In July of 1968, the Board of Visitors granted you emergency powers to put down riots and unauthorized assemblies. Several questions on this: first of all, could you describe the emergency powers granted you by the Board? Did you fear, at this time of youth unrest, that the wave of disturbances might spread to this campus, and did you find outside agitators coming on the campus to stir up trouble? And, finally, did you set up any intelligence—gathering apparatus to alert the administration to the prospect of trouble?

Webb: The Board, realizing its obligation to the students of this institution, gave me authority to take such action as was needed to protect them. This action was chiefly in the form of discussions with the Norfolk Police Department and others in some plan for action should anything occur that would require it. And we met with them, and we had on campus a very skeleton type of organization for action should it ever become necessary. Of course, it never did become necessary, but we had to provide bull horns at different points around the campus in case students did take over the administration building; there would be another source able to take over the administration to get help and to see that the students were properly protected. This was done, what I'd say, half—heartedly because we didn’t feel that there was any threat that was that obvious. We did have some students, part of the SDS group, come in and

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say that they were going to cause trouble and bomb, not bomb buildings because they wouldn’t come out with that word, I’m sure, but cause trouble, and threats over the telephone would come in and say, we are going to set fire to this building and that, but nothing of any great alarming nature at all. We were prepared to take action if it came. It, we never set up any organization to gather intelligence. Things came to us from normal grapevines and other sources of information came from city police and federal agencies telling us of characters that might try to create trouble. But there was nothing really out of the way here that we can say would bother us. These emergency powers granted by the Board because the Board had the power to set regulations, and it has the duty to prescribe and to develop the physical plant which is conducive to an educational program, and naturally the safety of the people taking part in this educational program is part of their responsibilities. Some of the faculty objected, very few, however. Of course, the American Civil Liberties Union did attack the Board of Visitors’ actions and I defended it, and I still would defend it because these powers were never abused and never intended to restrict anyone except when they would interfere with the right of the other students to their educational opportunities. I did have a group of two students come to me and say that they were going to block the doors of the library; they were going to prevent the students from entering the library, they were going to have a sit—down in front of the library doors and prevent entry of the students. I said, "Well, if you do, I have no other recourse except to remove you physically, pick you up and remove you." They said, "Oh, you wouldn’t do that." I said, "Yes, not only would I do it, I would do it immediately, and no one is going to stop the students in this institution from taking part in the educational program." And they said, "I don’t believe you will do it." I said, "Let’s go over right now and we’ll sit you down in front of the library, and you stop any student from coming in to use that library, and let’s see what will happen to you. I'll remove you bodily immediately." And they didn’t take me up on that because I definitely would have done it. I see no point in any group, minority group or any other group preventing the students from taking advantage of their educational opportunities.

Sweeney: You found no outsiders coming onto campus?

Webb: No, we had the power to prevent them. The Board gave me that power, if I wanted to say, you may not come on campus,

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you are not a registered student and you are interfering with the progress of the students and you will detract... disturb their studies, and remove them. I had the power given to me to do that, but I never had to take the initiative in doing it.

Sweeney: Then, overall, the behavior of the Old Dominion students during the late 1960’s was pretty good?

Webb: It was excellent, really, and I think the great majority of the student body looked on these as a few radicals, wild—eyed radicals, and they enjoyed egging them on, I think, more than anything else. I don’t remember whether...I think I did describe to you the time the Dow Chemical came to campus to recruit our seniors and we had the SDS group say they were going to block the--they were going to sit down and prevent people from going into Dow. And they had a march and they called the three television studios to show they were going to protest Dow. And they finally acquired 25 students, mainly young girls and the 10 or 12 hardcore members of SDS, and they told these little girls that you know Dow makes napalm and napalm burns up women and children, you don't want to burn up women and children, so let’s protest. And they were able to get 25 people marching around in a circle in front of the building. After two hours of television recording this violent uprising on campus of 25 students marching around in front of the building became rather boring, and the students were egging them on. Oh, hundreds of students gathered around the 25 and jeered, would move them over and move them over until finally they made them march around in the mud by moving in closer to them, and suddenly someone appeared with two dozen raw eggs and passed them around to the students, and the students began throwing them at the marchers. And that’s when we discovered, I think I told you, that the eggs were provided by the cameramen to be sure that we had some violent activity on campus.

Sweeney: In October 1968, you asked Governor Godwin to pay a one million dollar debt to the city for land bought for the Physical Education Building. The state paid $500,000 immediately. Did the state ever reimburse the city for the rest of the money? If not, why?

Webb: Well, this was not an annual but a biennial request of the state. We stuck in a million dollars every biennium to get the state to pay the city back for some of the land they had acquired and that we were now using. The state has never paid back the city entirely for the land they have acquired,

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but gradually we’ve paid them back, I think, for the land we are actually occupying. Maybe we still owe them $500,000, but not a great deal, and this was not unexpected that they would cut it back to $500,000. The state recognizes the obligation, we had an agreement with the state that the city would buy and hold without interest, and bill us for the land acquired. Now, this was an agreement which was not a written agreement but a verbal agreement with the Governor and with the State Comptroller and the State Budget Director. They knew what the city was doing, and they recognized and agreed that they would have this responsibility.

Sweeney: What role did you play in the selection of Dr. James L. Bugg as your successor?

Webb: Absolutely none, and that was my understanding that I had with the Board. I told the Board very firmly that I did not want to take any part in the selection, that I didn’t feel it proper that the person would feel under any obligation to me for taking that job. And I remember interviewing a number of candidates and Dr. Bugg, particularly, came in and talked to me after he had been interviewed by the selection committee and the deans, and Jim Bugg said, "What would you like to know about me?" and I said, "Not a damn thing," and this kind of shook him up, and I said, "Jim, don’t get your feelings hurt. I simply agreed with the Board not to in any way take part in this selection."

Sweeney: In December of 1968, Dr. Blitch stated to Dr. Bugg in a rap session at a meeting of the faculty senate that you never listened to the faculty senate and that your policy of ignoring the faculty cost them their identity. What is your comment on these charges?

Webb: Well, Dr. Blitch is a friend of mine, and we became even stronger friends after Dr. Bugg took over. He has devoted his time to criticism of Dr. Bugg rather than Dr. Webb. But, anyway, I would say this, that the faculty senate was listened to, and as much as they would require and asked for an audience. I’ve never turned down listening to the faculty senate. I didn’t let them make the decisions, I think that was what was bothering Dr. Blitch. They would, at that time,...a small group of the faculty felt that administrative decisions should be the prerogative of the faculty. I have never felt that is the proper setup for a college or university. The advice coming from the faculty

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is welcomed, and I think Dr. Bugg feels the same way, but I was in no mood to run this college by means of democratic vote on every question that came up. First place, it was a cumbersome method, and we made decisions that required action, quick action, in order to get things moving ahead. And so my policy of ignoring the faculty wasn’t one of ignoring the faculty at all. The only way they were ignored was they were not permitted to make the decisions on the administrative level and anything that dealt with the educational policies, yes, but the administration, in my opinion, has a duty to produce for the faculty proper teaching conditions, proper buildings, properly heated, lighting, and proper quality of students to get to the faculty. Their job is to do the teaching and that's what we probably--Dr. Blitch had the feeling that he wanted to be more involved in the administration decisions and that just wasn’t to be.

Sweeney: The next one is a controversial area, and I am going to make mention of several points about a controversy which arose near the end of your service as president and then you can respond to these which you have in front of you. First of all, the background information on Governor Godwin’s, Governor Godwin's intervention over an article published in the Gadfly entitled "The Immaculate Deception"? To what extent was Dr. Leland Peterson, the faculty advisor, responsible for this publication? Why was his contract delayed? And is it true that he was denied a salary increase because of the article in the Gadfly? Let's go that far.

Webb: The Gadfly, which was supposed to be one of the magazines, literary magazines, on campus, came out with this article, and before I had even read it, we got the calls not only from the Governor, from many, many people in town that picked it up and complained very bitterly about it. I had to get a copy to read to see what their complaints were. Now the faculty advisor for the Gadfly was Dr. Leland Peterson, and you asked me what was his responsibility for this publication, and that’s exactly where the whole controversy really resolved itself. Just prior to this publication of this magazine, Dean Peele had made his recommendations for salary increases for the coming year, and Dr. Peterson was highest on the list of his recommendations, a great deal above any other person in the whole School of Arts and Sciences. I asked Dean Peele why he put him so high; he said, well, he felt it was because of the services he was performing to the college, and he was an outstanding scholar and quite a bit of reasons that he gave, and the members of the English department were pushing to get

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their salaries up with those of the scientists, and he felt this was the way to do it. I said, "Well, Vernon, Dean Peele, I just don’t believe I can justly give such a jump in salary to Dr. Peterson and, in my opinion, he has not published anything that’s outstanding. I’ve seen several little critical articles that he has written, but as far as any publications, scholarly publications, I don’t see it, we haven’t had it." And what has he done for the college magazine, the literary magazine? And we’ve given him release time for this magazine, and I really don’t see a great deal of quality coming out in the magazine, and I am not going to approve this amount of increase. I’ll give him an increase which is more than the average that your faculty are getting, but I'm not going to make this jump this big. This was before I had even picked up the first inkling about the Gadfly and, of course, when the Gadfly came, it pointed out that he was the advisor to the Gadfly. I immediately called him in to ask him what advice he had been giving to the Gadfly and just how the publication resolved itself to publishing such as "The Immaculate Deception." He said that he had not seen it, he did not know that it was going to be published, and I asked him what his role was as the advisor, and he said just that, when they ask me for advice, I give it. And I said, Dr. Peterson, after all the advisors at this institution are given release time from their teaching because they are supposed to work with these students to advise them as to their publications; this is supposed to be an educational experience for them, and I expect you to read their stuff and tell them this is not up to standards and you can do better and to improve the quality. How many times have you met with the group? He said not at all. He gave no advice. I said, "You know that you are a consultant. There is a difference between an advisor to the student group and a consultant which is available for them if they wish. The advisor we expect to take active part with these students." He said, I am not; I don’t consider my role that. I have made no attempt to introduce myself, to inject myself into anything that they do. I simply give advice if asked, and no one’s asked for it. And, I told him frankly that I was not going to approve the full increase, that I was studying what his increase would be and would let him know as soon as I could. And then in the next few days the contracts were due, and I called him over again, and he was out of town, and I was told that he'd be out of town for a week and I wouldn’t be able to get hold of him. In the meantime, I had a very definite deadline at which the contracts would be given, and I authorized all the contracts to be given out except for his.

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With that, word got back to the...AAUP and then came Dr. McNalley, full of fire, ready to cut my head off, that I had no right to withhold a contract. I said, "McNalley, this is not your contract, this is a relationship between Dr. Peterson and me, and Dr. Peterson is not here. He said, "That’s just it, and I am the AAUP. I am going to demand that you give him a contract." I said, "McNalley, don’t be a nuisance. I’m going to sit down and talk to Dr. Peterson as soon as he comes back; I asked him to come. I’ve called his wife and told her to have him come to see me as soon as he gets back, and we’ll discuss this contract, and I'll tell him exactly what I am going to give him, but I am not going to do this right now." Well, we are going to the AAUP and we’re going to protest to the national organization and have this college boycotted because you are not living up to your agreement. You’re due a contract March the 15th and you are not giving him one March 15th. I said, "McNalley, let’s be reasonable," but he was in no mood to be reasonable, and I finally said, "Well, listen, boy, let’s get out of here before I throw you bodily out of here and that you and I are not coming to any agreement, now let’s get the hell out of here right now." And with that he departed and passed the word on the campus that I had called him a boy. [laughs]I call everybody boy. Hi boy, how's everything going with you boy? Boy is my pet phrase for friends, and immediately he told one of the faculty members that I had called him a boy, and Mr. Kovner, who had worked with me for many years, and Kovner said, "What the devil, you blew it, boy, you really blew it boy because that’s a term of endearment, that’s not an insult to be called a boy by the president; that’s his pet expression." But anyway, I said, "McNalley, get out of here. You’re gonna--you can be assured that the contract is going to be written for Dr. Peterson now, and I am going to deliver it in person, and it is going to be exactly the same salary that he got last year. There will be no increase of any part in it at this time, but he’s going to get a contract, and so our relationship with the AAUP will be fulfilled, that he has gotten a contract. Now the amount of the contract is going to be negotiated later if I’ve decided to give him an increase above that, but right now he’s got a contract, I am delivering it to his wife today," which I did. Now when he came back, I discussed again with him, and we had quite a discussion about the role of an advisor and not advising, and he asked to be heard by the Board, which I said, "You are perfectly free and I will see that you get an appointment with the Board of Visitors." He met with the Board, and they discussed in some detail this same thing. The Board asked me, in order to keep faculty harmony and not create a deal of unrest among the AAUP, if I would relent and go on and

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add the amount recommended to his salary. I agreed; I said, "I don’t think he deserves it." He hasn’t earned it by any standard that you can judge, but, if it is a question of faculty harmony, I certainly will go ahead with it this time, but I will let it be known very clearly that from now on the duties of an advisor to the magazine, to the newspaper, are clearly spelled out —— that they are not a consultant, they are an advisor!

END OF TAPING SESSION

Additional Webb interviews ...