Additional Webb interviews ...

145

Sweeney: Today we are concluding our series of interviews with former President Lewis W. Webb with several questions that relate to the period of the last year of his presidency and one question that goes back in time to the early 1940’s. First of all, over the years could you assess the contribution made by the campus chapter of the Association of University Professors to the college?

Webb: The AAUP has never been a very strong group on the campus. They probably at no time represented over 10% of the faculty and generally, of course, the members that they did represent or the ones that were members were among the more vocal and members that tended to create disturbances, if possible. I’d say their contributions weren’t very great, but at the same time, of course, they did play a useful role in keeping the administration on their toes and checking on what they felt were discrimination against faculty members or obvious faults of the administration. So in that way, although they were just an irritant to the administration in most cases, I’d say they did perform a role that was needed, but as far as any leadership was concerned or any ideas or any constructive work, it never came from AAUP. So I don’t like to downgrade the group but, except that they performed a role as watchdog, I guess is the only real contribution that they made.

Sweeney: Could you tell me what role you played in Dean of Students G.William Whitehurst’s decision to seek the Second Congressional District seat vacated by the retirement of Representative Porter Hardy in 1968?

Webb: Dr. Whitehurst came to me early in the game when he was first giving thought to becoming an active politician and said that certain of the Republicans, the leading Republicans, had asked him if he would be interested in getting into politics, first on the level--the state level and then later as it developed on the Congressional level. And the more we thought about it and the nearer it came the time the decision had to be made, it became obvious, that if he was ever going to get into politics, the time was right for him to do it. He had been on television in the series of educational programs in which he would play the part of giving background to roles, national roles, that were taking place, things that would happen internationally. He would explain the background of the country and give you more insight into why these things were happening politically

146

all over the globe, and he was an extremely interesting speaker and a great deal of personality and showmanship and the public loved him, so he had a good image and a good audience to give him a build—up to get him ready for this role. So he came to me and said that the local Republicans had asked him to run and would I agree that he should do it, and I said certainly, Bill, this is the time. The only one thing I would like to say before you do it is don’t get into it in the middle of the current controversy. There were two people beating on each other, and it got to be quite a bitter campaign between the two. Just stand back and let them slug each other and leave them alone. Don’t get drawn into it. Let them beat themselves to death and you can step in. He said, "Well, I would like to have this official, and we better get the Board of Visitors." So I arranged to have him meet with the Board, and Mr. Batten was chairman then, and I said, Frank, Dean Whitehurst would like to have a minute with the Board on something personal. He said, "Well, what is it?" I said, "Well, I can’t tell you, but he will tell you very quickly." And so the Board listened and agreed to give him a year’s leave of absence actually to let him try his political wings and so he did, of course, and the rest is history. He was elected with no difficulty at all, and he did sit it out and let the others beat themselves to death, and he stepped in as the popular white knight. And he’s done an extremely good job because, since he’s been elected, he has certainly devoted considerable time to this area and also he’s kept us in mind as Old Dominion University needs in any way he could help us.

Sweeney: What was the "Time—Out" Day that you designated for March 5, 1969?

Webb: This was a day, and I still think it is a good idea although it has been abandoned, that all of the administrators, and I mean all of them, would be available plus all the key faculty members would be available in their office and would wait for any student that had a problem or wanted to see the faculty or the administrator, and they could come and discuss the problems. Generally, it evolved into a sort of morning session in which the faculty member or the administrator would sit in a room and then a group would come in and ask questions and he would answer it to the entire group, with the afternoon being devoted to more private conversations in which the administrator or faculty member would be in his office and receive individuals and their complaints or suggestions.

147

This was done to assure the faculty member of being present or the administrator being present and that the student was free from classes to be able to go to see the person. And it was an attempt to bring the administration closer to the student body and let them know that it wasn’t just a big boogie—man sitting up somewhere with no access at all from the student, and I think it worked for a year or two. Of course, many, many students took advantage of it was just a holiday, and they didn’t bother to come at all, but certainly it took away the sting or it took away the argument that the administration or the faculty were not available. Parents were welcomed to come as well as students on that day.

Sweeney: As you retired in 1969, did you have any regrets about your decision to step down? What accomplishments were you the most proud of, and were there any great disappointments?

Webb: Oh, no, I had no regrets about my decision to step down. I thought about it for several years before it actually came about, and so I had made up my mind and determined to do it. The accomplishments were... I’m most proud, I guess, of the fact that we were able to have the college develop from a very small, unaccredited junior college to a full— fledged university with graduate programs, doctoral degrees being offered. And there were many steps in between, of course, that were necessary and were rewarding as I look back, but of course there were disappointments. There were things that I had hoped that would have happened that have not happened. Always you are faced with the financial problems and most of them are dependent upon good financing, which we have not gotten and it doesn’t look like we will get immediately. But, for example, the things that I couldn’t get and I wanted very much to get was, one, were, one, a faculty club —— a place where faculty could go for entertainment in the afternoon and lunches and during the summer take their children and families to have outings. This, I was not able to accomplish. We did get a piece of property leased from the city with option to buy, but there wasn’t enough building there and enough facilities to justify or keep the faculty interest. You need something —— tennis courts, swimming pool, outdoor pavilion for barbecues, picnics and things of that type as well as a club where they can go and get light lunches or have parties in the evening, things of that type, and I haven’t been able to do that, but it is still something the faculty needs badly. The faculty is very much cliqued up in this university. The English group

148

sticks together and very rarely sees anyone from sciences. The science group cliques together and rarely sees anybody from even the engineering sections, and so a faculty club is a place where all disciplines could meet and enjoy each other. It didn’t get done. I’d say another thing, of course, was the idea of a science complex. We did get part of the chemistry building built. It is built so that it can be added to and just about an equal amount of space provided. We didn’t--I didn’t get that, and next to that was to be a life sciences building, the biology groups in it, and the next building was to be the physical sciences building. And they are three additions which we badly need; according to the priority list right now they are going to be a long time coming, but this institution in an urban setting as it is, needs strong sciences to supply the needs of the community, and I am sorry that I wasn’t able to get that, and apparently it's been dropped back quite a bit on the list. Another very bitter disappointment to me was that just before I resigned as president, I secured a loan from the Federal Housing for 2½ million dollars at three percent interest to build a dormitory complex between 47th and 48th Streets on the west side of Powhatan Avenue. In fact, we had the plans drawn by a Richmond architectural firm for a beautiful complex overlooking the water, and I don’t know why, I am astounded to find that the Board of Visitors said no, they didn’t want to go into housing students. So they let the loan go and they let the plans for the building go, although I think the plans cost us around $150,000, a considerable sum for the planning, and the land was bought and ready. But they did not do that, which I am bitterly disappointed, because within another year they decided that they did need housing, and they bought these dormitories which are on the east side of Hampton Boulevard. And even today, if you read the paper, you will see that the dormitories are inadequate and they are renting space from hotels and motels at Virginia Beach, which again shouldn’t be. It should be here within walking distance of this campus. I just can’t understand that. Dormitories are required for any university of any quality. We have got to bring in students from out of the community, and that was my idea in the beginning --to get the dormitories in order to bring in students from all over the country, and not have them to have to search for themselves to find their room and board, but I guess that is my most disappointing thing was the failure for them to follow up on the dorms. And then, last thing, to make

149

it short, is the lack of emphasis on water sports. This university, if it is ever going to be known in sports, has an opportunity to be known for water sports. We are surrounded by water, water in every direction in this area. And we should have not just a small sailing group, which we have gotten, but interest in canoeing, boating of all types, and in shell racing and all forms of water sports. The difficulty seems to be that the phys. ed.(physical education)group doesn’t want to hire people in that field. They feel they must have people interested in baseball, basketball, wrestling. But, I have never been able to work up any enthusiasm for water sports and apparently hasn’t any great push been made toward it since I left, but that has got to come. It’s a natural for this institution and it’s not expensive, and I do hope it will come about.

Sweeney: Did you have any indication why the Board of Visitors turned down those dorms in 1969?

Webb: No, I do not. I am not talking, you see, I have deliberately, when I resigned as president I told the Board very plainly I would have nothing to do with their selection of a new president because I felt that he should have a free rein and the Board. I didn’t feel that I should try to continue my influence on the Board. It would bring in a young man with his own ideas, and I’ve never even asked the Board members why they did that. I have always been curious; maybe you can find out for me.

Sweeney: After you stepped down, you became a student again, taking courses at the College of William and Mary in Williamsburg. Why did you desire to return to teaching, and did you have any interesting experiences at William and Mary as a student?

Webb: You see, I taught long enough to know the joys of teaching. I taught from 1932 till 1946 before I stopped teaching entirely. And, I knew there was a great deal more enjoyment in teaching than there was in administration, especially after things had gone as far as they had gone with this institution. So, I was looking forward to that. I was, of course, from ‘46 to ‘69, there is a pretty good span of time to have been out of teaching, especially in a field such as physics. Tremendous changes in the field of physics since that time, and I knew that I would have to refresh. And so I went to William and Mary for the sole purpose of trying to pick up the gap and to refresh my memory and also to learn of the new developments in the field of physics. There was quite

150

a challenge and quite a bit of work. I spent the five days a week in Williamsburg, not commuting, but staying there so that I would have the full evenings to study. I think if anyone had told me the first two weeks I was there, What are you doing here, you are too old to be up in this area as a student, get on home, I would have gone. But fortunately no one did, and after a couple of weeks I adjusted and found that I could hold my own with the students. Although they are mighty sharp students there, I enjoyed them and enjoyed working with them. I enjoyed the young men and ladies in the classes. They accepted me, I think, very well. I was assigned the lab work with them just as if I were a teenager along with them. And I had a lot of fun. I rode my bicycle from my rooming house to the campus. I attended all of the rallies that they attended and the uprisings with them. I enjoyed seeing the administration put on the spot on several occasions in which the students were threatening, of course, to do dire things to see how the administration would react. I was thankful, of course, that I was not the administrator that had to react to them. I had some very interesting experiences, and I enjoyed it. I attempted to stay there forever, of course, but I had to get back here to teaching. I found when I got back that teaching was just as much fun as I thought it was, and I have enjoyed it ever since. I am not teaching this term, for the first time. I retired fully July 1, 1974. And I didn't take on any part-time teaching, but I will be teaching again this spring. I think the response that you get from the students is the thing that keeps the faculty’s interest and keeps me excited. And I hope I will go on teaching, at least part—time, for a long time to come.

Sweeney: You have answered the final question in part already, about...or the final question on the late ‘60’s. One added part on that was about the contemporary student, who has changed to such a great degree in attitudes, manner, and appearance from the students of, say, 20 or 30 years ago. I was wondering if you could make any remarks comparing or contrasting the generation of students that you taught when you first came to the Norfolk Division of the College of William and Mary and the students that are on campus in 1974—75?

Webb: There is considerable change in the students and the students’ attitudes. I think, of course, when I first started teaching in the ‘30’s--early ‘30’s, faculty were looked upon with awe, and the students didn’t give you a lot of chatter and try to convince you of how much they knew. In fact, if they had,

151

the professors would have said, Well, you don’t need to be in this class, get the hell out. You know it all anyway, so forget it. But the student today is, in my opinion, too serious. Maybe it is the pressure on them of earning grades or the pressure of other students in competitive roles. But they are an extremely serious group, on the whole. Of course, they have a few that don’t last long nowadays. Of course, we bust them out and get rid of them, but the majority of them are far more serious than they were, and less fun. When they play, they play harder. They drink more and, of course, they have got releases in dope and things of that type. Which, I think, in my days if a student had even suggested that he was going to take dope or if we had thought that he had his head on backwards. And the drinking is much heavier than it was although there was drinking when I was a student and first taught. But there were only on weekends and for special occasions and not continuously, as some make it today. The older students, the students of the ‘30’s, were more prank minded. They would find ways to pull pranks on each other and on the university and on the faculty. That type of prankster is gone. You don’t see them anymore, of course, sending things up the flag pole, tearing down automobiles and disassembling them in the middle of the streets and things of that type. Of course, we did go through just a few years ago a very obnoxious costume—type thing in which students tried to outdo each other in outlandish costumes. They weren’t as noticeable on this campus as they were on the William and Mary campus or some of the more country—type colleges such as VPI, University of Virginia, places out in rural areas where there wasn’t too much cities around them. Norfolk, of course, many of the students had to come from home to class, and parents did put some control over the costumes they wore. But when they went directly from a dormitory to class, they could be pretty bad. Faculty bemoaned this and felt that this would go on forever and get worse. But I think, if you look today, you will see that in the last two years the costumes were disappearing rapidly. No more Indians with fringe beads and very few granny skirts, and bare midriffs, except in the summertime. So, costumes do go through phases. A student follows the group as they always have. Of course, I really think the morals are a great deal looser than they were. They are much more open than they were, which, I think, encourages looser morals. They see others doing them perfectly open and very near open and they feel it is quite the thing to do. I hope this again will change as people realize their responsibility. But we have good students

152

and many have strong moral characters, and I don’t worry too much about today’s student; I think he is going to add something to this world.

Sweeney: Finally, in 1941 the College of William and Mary, the parent institution of the Norfolk Division, was suspended from the American Association, presumably on the grounds that they were dissatisfied with conditions at the Norfolk Division. I wonder if you could throw any light upon this situation?

Webb: Let me see, that was a good time ago, and that is the time this thing started, I’m almost certain, with the Dean Hodges affair which is documented elsewhere. And, when they came down to investigate the Dean Hodges case, they immediately saw the inequities between this little institution and those at William and Mary, and they saw the tremendous gaps in the structure, such as the library and laboratories and faculty. And, William and Mary was paying very, very little attention to this. Of course, it was--as long as it didn’t bother William and Mary, William and Mary wasn’t going to bother the Norfolk Division. And this action of Dean Hodges brought the investigation. And, as a result, they were on the spot to either close the place or to add a little quality to it to bring it up to some standards. And, although they promised, as you will notice in the article, that they would improve the library, the improvement of the library consisted chiefly of going through the William and Mary library and extracting a bunch of surplus, or duplicate books they had and bringing them down here. I remember, for years that we were the dumping ground for all the surplus William and Mary books, many of them of questionable value, but it did increase the number of books we had. It didn’t improve any, in my estimation. The relations between the faculties, they still showed no interest in the English Department, History Department, or Science Department. And only when overtures were made from here to Williamsburg did any help come at all. The administration was tightened a great deal because of what happened. They did show a great deal more administrative concern, and this was also the beginning of the first state assistance to the Norfolk Division of William and Mary. They never got any money at all until about ‘42—’43. And they then started

153

putting the college in the budget for a small amount of money. If my memory is correct, it was around $5,000 a year assistance beyond tuition and fees that the state gave to us and, of course, the promise of a building, which didn’t come until nearly ‘55. But that suspension threat did cause them to look a little closer, administratively, at the Norfolk Division. When I took over in 1946, it was still far, far from being accredited. In fact, I could find no real interest in having it accredited in its own right. But that was one of my first chores, to beef up the faculty, the physical plant, the library, to a point that we would be accredited as a junior college. And, we were successful in this rather quickly.

Sweeney: Thank you, President Webb.

Additional Webb interviews ...