Additional Webb interviews ...

[Transcript continued from November 11, 1974]

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Sweeney: Today we’re continuing the interview with former president Lewis W. Webb of Old Dominion University.

The first question I wanted to ask you today, President Webb, is about the background of the arrangement in 1949 whereby the college leased Foreman Field to the city for 25 years at the cost of one dollar per year.

Webb: Foreman Field was, at that time, very little asset to the college. We were getting certain revenues which were insufficient for operation of the stadium. The stadium needed additional lighting, it needed additional toilet facilities, and constant care on the track and the field itself. And the revenues produced were just not enough. In fact, back in those years, under the original agreement with the city, the city had purchased land enabling us to build Foreman Field. I think they purchased something in the neighborhood of five or six acres, in addition to our own property, so that Foreman Field could be built. And the agreement said that unless this is paid off in 25 years, or maybe it was 15 years, I’d have to look up that original agreement. You probably can get a record of it. That all excess profits from the stadium will go to pay off the city for its investments. Its investment amount of —— in the neighborhood of $100,000.

Since the stadium was serving the city of Norfolk rather than the college, I saw no point in the city not making some contribution to Foreman Field. And I never let any money revert to pay off that debt. We paid, I think, $15,000 over a period of 10 or 15 years. But the local sports people got the idea that we were not using the funds properly for Foreman Field and that it could be handled better, and they put a lot of pressure on the city to make us to make certain improvements. And when we’d face the city with the fact, "Well, where are we going to get the money," we couldn’t take it from our own limited budget, and that it was of no benefit to the college since we did not have a football team, we were using the track, but we didn’t need the stadium to go with the track. We had no interest in putting any improvements in that unless revenue was coming from the football or other activities in the stadium.

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So that’s when they agreed to lease it from the university and we’d have exclusive use of the property, Monday through Friday at 2:00, and that they--the city could lease it beginning at 2:00 Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, with veto on the part of the college for certain events. And immediately, the city had to spend several hundred thousand dollars putting in new lighting; we had nothing but telephone poles with some lights attached to them, and that had to come down and the big steel poles put in. They had to spend several hundred thousand dollars on end zone seats for the Oyster Bowl game, they had to make major improvements in the sound system, which was in the neighborhood of 30 or 40 thousand dollars, and they had to drastically improve the toilet facilities and the dressing rooms. And each year the city has operated it. It’s operated it at a deficit. The revenues are not sufficient to carry it. So I think one of the best things we ever did was to lease this to the city, since they are the ones that benefit —— not the university. Their high schools play games in it. Their public affairs are held there. It’s really not of any great value to this university. We used to kiddingly say, well, we’d lease the stadium to the city, and we’d take this revenue (which is one dollar a year) and divide it up to give the faculty a bonus.

Sweeney: When you took over as director, was there a strong feeling in the community that the Division should be raised to four—year status? I wonder how the faculty felt about this and I wonder if you ever broached this topic with President Poinfret of the College of William and Mary?

Webb: The topic had come up very strongly, even back in the thirties, late thirties and beginning forties, of a four—year program. In fact, that’s one of the things that was cut back on very severely. When the Pomfret, I beg your pardon, when the Hodges affair came up, they at that time were offering junior work in business and working towards giving a degree in business. And immediately all third year work was cut out and the college simply said no. If you look in the records, you’ll see that they had a formula which said horizontal expansion for the Norfolk Division. No vertical expansion. Meaning nothing beyond the first two years of college work. The faculty, of course, still wanted very much to have four—year work. They didn’t want to be restricted to teaching just at the two—year level.

The city had some interest, but not too much. This had to be sold to the city as well as to William and Mary. And so, the big selling job was to get this into a four—year college. The faculty were for it. Practically to a man, they all wanted it. But the city had just a medium—warm feeling about it. The College

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of William and Mary had perfectly cold feelings. Naturally, they saw no point in having it. But after we sold a number of really leading citizens in the community that there was a definite need for a four—year college. And the Chamber of Commerce took on its committee to promote a four—year college here. And the Junior Chamber of Commerce made a study to show its need —- there was a need for a four-year college. I think you probably have a copy of that study by the Junior Chamber of Commerce. All of those finally put the pressure on the Board of Visitors of William and Mary to bring about the four—year college. There was no leadership on the part of Dr. Pomfret or anyone else in Williamsburg to get this four—year college. It was only with great reluctance that they allowed a four—year college to be developed.

Sweeney: In 1951, the college was accredited on its own for the first time. In what areas did the college excel to offset the obvious inadequacies of the physical plant?

Webb: Chiefly in the areas of teaching. We were stressing good teaching. We had a very inferior physical plant, and that was what the inspecting team from the Southern Association looked at very critically. And they approved...accredited us with the understanding that certain improvements would be made in the physical plant. The faculty were qualified as to the number of Ph.D.’s in each major program. The course outlines were covered, the follow—up of our students going to other institutions was very good, and so the production is what really sold the Southern Association. They saw that there was good teaching going on and that these students were receiving proper education and were able to hold up when they transferred to other institutions. That was the biggest part of the study —— the follow-up. What happened to "John Smith" when he left you, how well did he do at "Podunk U."? And that took a considerable amount of time to get together, plus of course the course outlines. The library was a weak point, and that again was where the city came to help. The citizens of the area contributed $75,000 to build up the collection in the library, and we also were able to put the pressure to get the first building, really, after the science building, was earmarked as the library. This is what is currently being called the Hughes Library —— the Hughes Memorial Library, and that library developed rather unusually, too. You might not know that background, so I’m going to tell you while we’re on it.

We had appropriations in about ‘59 or ‘58, probably 1958, to build a classroom building and a library. The amounts totalled

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in the neighborhood of a million dollars. But individually the library was, say, $500,000 and the classroom building was $500,000. But we knew that we could not build a library for $500,000 that would adequately support a growing institution such as we had, and in the next few years that library we built would be completely inadequate. So, I persuaded the state to let me build one building to do the two tasks, and so that building, which is the Hughes Library —— the first floor was library, the second floor was classrooms. But it was designed so that those classrooms on the second floor, the partitions would come out. There were no permanent partitions, and as the library expanded, it could expand upward. We were predicted a 25—year life span in that building, but, as you know, a 15-year life is what finally happened, and we’ll have to move within the next two years into the new building. So that will be ‘76, and that was finished in ‘60, I believe. That building was finished in ‘59 or ‘60. So, it’s only 15 years that we were able to stay within the walls of that building. But we wouldn’t have stayed 10 years because we were very quickly moving upstairs and putting special collections upstairs and finally pushed all of the classes out of the second floor. The building was designed by Edward Wright, who is a noted architect. He designed the American Embassy in New Delhi, and he designed... oh...you know Edward Wright, I’m sure. He’s a very world—famous architect. He was brought in to work with the local architects, to assure that the library was built as proper flow. Wright had designed several college libraries. That’s the reason he was selected. The building is, of course, completely surrounded by glass, and one of the controversial points was that the glass was covered with a solar block. The solar block is a four—inch lacy block that will cut off the sunlight at about 10:00 in the morning and keep it cut off until about 4:00 in the afternoon, at which time it will be low enough to come through the solar block. But we found it to be a very efficient screen. Back in those days we were not allowed to air condition any buildings. We were allowed to properly humidify and preserve books. And so we were able to air condition the first floor of that building only. The state would not permit the second floor to be air conditioned. And so the architect thought this a terrific waste of money because eventually there would be a library on the second floor, and then we would have to put in new chillers and new evaporators and things of that type, and it would be an awful expense. So, we designed the building that it would be air handled but not air cooled, and when they. . . the building was completed, the building was so effectively insulated by the solar block that the unit which was designed for only the first floor was able to do the entire building. All we did was buy a piece of four—inch copper pipe and hook the second floor to the first floor

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and chill the second floor. And it’s been using that same air conditioning system ever since. Very effectively. In fact, it’s one of the few on campus that doesn’t go off every time it gets hot. So, that was just one of the regulations the state had to prevent us from being comfortable in the summer.

We got off the track. I don’t know if you want all that type of stuff or not.

Sweeney: The next question is, why were certain aspects of the fiscal operation, for example, loans, book store operations, criticized by the state auditor in 1950 and ‘51?

Webb: Well, my memory doesn’t hold too well at that point, but basically what was happening then, the local funds were kept entirely separate from the state funds because we felt that any profits made from the book shop, the lunch room, the coke machines, should be applied back to the students rather than to go into the general coffers of the state. And, the book shop was really making a very substantial profit and enabled us to do a lot of things that we couldn’t do with state money —— to bring in special lectures for the students, to bring in additional things for the athletic teams, it was the only source of revenue we had, and we used it strictly for that purpose. I don’t remember any criticism except, at that time, they were trying desperately to get their hands on that money, which I was determined they shouldn’t get, because we had no endowment here, and we had nothing to fall back on. The only money we had that was not strictly controlled by the state was this money. I used a big chunk of it to air condition this building we’re in right here. When this was built, they had relinquished a little bit of their tight control on air conditioning and allowed us to air condition the faculty offices in the back of the building, but the rest of the building was not air conditioned. And so I siphoned off some of the local fund money and added additional chillers and compressors to the plant to air condition the entire... building. Which of course we’re in Chandler Hall —— Chandler Hall named not for Mr. Alvin Duke Chandler, who was president, but for his father, Mr. J. A. C. Chandler, who was president of William and Mary back in... I think in the early twenties and up into the beginning of the thirties, Mr. Chandler. And he is the one that was president of William and Mary when this Division was formed. He came to the Division and approved the beginning back in 1930. But Mr. J. A. C. Chandler, I felt, should be honored in some way, and I kept trying to get the Board of Visitors at William and Mary to name one of the buildings for Mr. Chandler. But his son, Mr. Alvin Duke Chandler, would always oppose it. In fact, the library building, which

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was named for Mr. Hughes, was not supposed to have been named for Mr. Hughes. I had recommended that it be named for Mr. Chandler--J. A. C. Chandler. But when the Board met, before I was permitted to come in to the Board, they announced as I came through the door that they had named that building for Mr. Hughes. I said, "Who in the world is Mr. Hughes?" And they said, "Well, he was on the William and Mary Board, he was a Norfolk citizen, and they felt that they should honor Mr. Hughes. Well, as far as I can determine, Mr. Hughes never had any interest whatsoever in the Norfolk Division of the College of William and Mary. I felt they should have honored him at Williamsburg rather than in Norfolk, but, anyway, when we were separated, I brought up to the Board, the local Board, that Norfolk Division Board, the naming of that building for Mr. Chandler... this building for Mr. Chandler, which was done.

Sweeney: Now I do have several questions about President Alvin Duke Chandler of William and Mary, who seemed to be somewhat controversial as an educator. I’m wondering whether you felt the selection of Alvin Chandler as president of the College of William and Mary bode well or ill for the Norfolk Division and how Chandler envisioned the future of the Division, and what his feelings were on a four—year college, and if he had any idea of the college as an urban—oriented institution?

Webb: When Mr. Chandler was first appointed president of William and Mary, it was not a good day for the Norfolk Division or for the Richmond Division either. He had very little interest in those divisions. It was only after he had been there several years and had seen the political pressure on the Board of William and Mary to do something about Norfolk and Richmond that he changed. He was a very strict taskmaster, but I’ll say one thing. He had an open mind. And when he saw the advantages, he did change. He realized the potential for developing a large university, and his ultimate aim was to see William and Mary as the University of Eastern Virginia. The University of Virginia, which was supposed to be the university, was not serving the Tidewater area, and he felt that the only way that the Tidewater area could be served would be by developing William and Mary and its satellite units — Norfolk College and the Richmond Professional Institute — into large colleges, and William and Mary would then become a university with these satellite colleges — one in Petersburg,

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one in Richmond, one in Newport News, and one in Norfolk. And he almost was able to do this. The final blow came when the separation of the Norfolk Division and the Richmond Division was done by the state legislature. But, up to that time, he had the greatest grouping of higher education in the state. It overshadowed the University of Virginia, it overshadowed VPI, and had potential for even greater growth, as you know, which has since occurred. But that was his whole aim, was to develop the University of William and Mary, and he was ruthless in getting it, and he pushed the Norfolk Division once we broke the... fear of the college that we could become a four—year institution and developed as a separate entity to William and Mary. And so the emphasis then, on developing Norfolk and Richmond, was something that William and Mary did actively help bring it about. It was only after Mr. Alvin Duke Chandler had the vision of this great Eastern Virginia University. The day the separation came, he still felt confident that he could hold together this conglomerate which he had put together. He told me years afterwards when he was at a meeting here in Norfolk that he had heard that the legislature, upon the recommendation of the governor, had decided to separate Norfolk and Richmond, and he was at that time on his way to Richmond in his automobile, listening to the radio. He was to attend a party that night of the William and Mary alumni who were entertaining the legislature. Each time the legislature met, the Alumni Association would entertain the legislators at a big cocktail party, and all of us were told, that is, the administrators of Richmond and Norfolk were told, "Go to the cocktail party; work with the legislators with the idea of holding together the William and Mary system." I told them I could not do that. I’d go to the cocktail party —— I wouldn’t oppose it, but I certainly couldn’t actively support such a thing because I was definitely for the separation. But the alumni had pretty well gotten the legislature to a point that they would have kept it together, except for the governor. And, I’m pretty sure that was Harrison that came out and talked to me several times and talked to our local people several times about advantages and disadvantages of separation. And when he made up his mind that he was going to support the separation, the rest of the legislators jumped on the wagon like flies, and it was all over. There was no question that the institutions would be separate and that I would still be a member of this institution. If it hadn’t have happened, I would not be here today, you can be sure.

Sweeney: My next question is a general one about the governors. There will be more specific questions about budget problems and the like. But the governors of Virginia, while you served as president of this institution or as director, Governors Tuck,

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Battle, Stanley, Aliman, Harrison and Godwin. I wonder which of these seemed to be the most Sensitive to the college’s needs and which the least sensitive?

Webb: Tuck showed very, very little interest. He did, I think, attend one function here. I’d say Harrison was the most sympathetic and the one that supported the cause more than any of the other governors. None of them have been what you call willing to support it to the point that we were given equal rights with the other institutions. And we’re still playing the catch—up game of trying to get back into the fair share in the legislature. But, of course, Governor Godwin was very helpful. Governor Godwin was a member of this university back in the thirties. He attended a year here and then transferred to William and Mary. So, he had some feeling for the Division, and he always gave me all the help he could. Of course, the budget was mainly made up by the legislature, and the changes were pretty hard for the governor...to make any abrupt changes. But I’d say Governor Godwin was extremely helpful —— sympathetic to this university. And, of course, Harrison was, too.

Sweeney: How effectively over the span of years of your presidency did the Norfolk delegation to the General Assembly represent Old Dominion and, before that, the Norfolk Division’s needs?

Webb: The Norfolk delegation was never a great aid to us. I hate to say that, but I must be frank. They didn’t oppose us. But the Norfolk delegation has never, until recent years, taken a strong stand. When they went to the legislature, they listened to the boys from the other parts of the state. And, while they had the power, if they had gotten Portsmouth, Virginia Beach, Norfolk, Hampton, and Newport News together, to do most anything they wanted, they never put the group together to get their. . . really, their constituents given fair consideration.

I would often visit the legislature, and they were very sympathetic, but it was generally, "Well, you know, we can’t do anything. The boys on the other end of the state want to see the University of Virginia and VPI get their shares, and we can’t do much." So, I don’t think they hindered us as much as they just didn’t give us any great amount of support to develop this institution.

Sweeney: Was there any single legislator that helped more than another?

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Webb: Several of the group in the last five years have shown a great deal of interest. Prior to that, the group did not. But people like Stanley Walker have been very helpful to us. John Sears has been helpful. Warren White was helpful, and a number of others, the names don’t come to me right at this point. But someone asked me about Henry Howell because Henry Howell was a student here, too. Henry is a very realistic person. When I went to the legislature to seek help, Henry took me aside and said, "Now, Lewis, very frankly, you know that I have a negative influence on this legislature." He said, "Now, if you want any of your proposals killed off pretty promptly, you simply let me propose them for you." He said, "I will do this. I’ll help you in every way. Whenever you need a vote that I can give, you’ll get it. I’ll even talk to my friends and ask them to support. But I would not be helpful to you to come out and be the one to sponsor any legislation for the Norfolk Division. Let’s be realistic. I want to see the Norfolk Division prosper, and I know that this legislature is purely against anything I bring up. I could bring up that mothers are good people, and they would veto it."

Sweeney: Why were education, business administration, and nursing singled out as the first areas in which the Norfolk Division would offer a four—year degree?

Webb: Chiefly to meet the needs of the community. The community needs were foremost in our minds. We were developing as an urban institution, and we found from experience that the students that attended Old Dominion, at that time the Norfolk Division, generally stayed in the community. And so, we surveyed the community needs and found out that business administration was one of the big needs and big areas which students could be placed, and that education —— there were several thousand teachers in the area that needed upgrading. Many, many had only two—year certificates, and these needed to be worked into degree programs. Some of the ones having degrees needed refreshers, so those two were obviously community needs that we were filling because the students we were drawing from —— appealing to —— were local citizens rather than out—of—state, out—of—town citizens. At that time we were something like 92% of our student body was drawn from the local area.

The nursing was another need. We had been working with the Norfolk General Hospital and DePaul Hospital to supplement their training of nurses. They needed more than just two—year nursing programs, and the great demand for nursing —— trained nurses by these hospitals made an obvious curriculum that was opened, and we could place every nurse we trained, so we asked for that as our third avenue leading to a degree.

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Sweeney: What role did the city of Norfolk play in making it possible for the college to expand physically to meet the requirements of a four—year college? And I might also add, what did the strong mayor Fred Duckworth’s attitude seem to be toward the school?

Webb: Fred Duckworth was a real friend of this institution. Many people don’t realize it, but he definitely was. He was a very strong mayor, and anything he wanted to have done, he was able to persuade the City Council to do. Fred was interested in this, and he realized that the college was an asset to the city. In fact, he knew that it was essential for the proper development of this community. However, he felt that the support must come from the state, that it would not ever become a strong higher education facility if it were supported only by the city. So, he resisted any direct support to the Norfolk Division. He’d keep saying, "You must get it from the legislature. They are responsible for the education of the citizens of this area, as well as the Blacksburg and the Charlottesville area. And, we must see that the state does their duty and fulfills their obligations." And so, we never got any actual appropriations from the city; however, in the question of expansion of the college, it was necessary to acquire land. We were bound in very tightly by a small block of land. As you remember, when Mr. J. A. C. Chandler came to Norfolk, and they showed him the old Larchmont School building to develop into a college, he said, "No, we need more land." And at that time, there was a farm —— two farms —— directly south of that building, and considerable acreage in those farms. They said, "Mr. Chandler, how much more land do you need?" He said, "At least two and a half acres." And, of course, that was merely a drop in the bucket. If he had picked up these farms at that time, it would have been a lot easier for us to move ahead. But land was our critical need. And when we started to build a library, the state had allowed us to pick up some small pieces of property along 48th Street and over on 47th Street. And, the rest of the area from 48th Street on toward 45th Street was completely built with old, dilapidated homes--homes, wooden frame homes that were way beyond their life--normal life span and should have been removed——a decaying area. Mr. Duckworth said, "Lewis, the city will buy the land, and you don’t have to worry, and you get the money for the buildings. We’ll have the land available for you to put them on. Don’t waste your time getting land from the state. Let us get the land; you get the buildings." And that’s the way we started. They acquired the property on which the present library is located and the present fine arts building, and the present Hughes... I beg your pardon, the present Chandler building. All of this area, all around the stadium, was picked up by the city.

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Most of it was actually, in fact, given to us. We even built buildings on city property before it ever was transferred to Old Dominion. To the college at that time. The library building was built, so was the fine arts building, on city property. The street, which is 49th Street, was practically closed at that time by our encroachment on the street itself. This, of course, has been since shifted slightly and opened again. Forty—ninth Street has been reopened.

But Mr. Duckworth’s aid was in getting property for the college. And, of course, after he left, the city manager then started putting the bite on the state to buy back this land which they had. Originally, it was no intention, there was no agreement, that this land would be purchased back from the city. It was the city’s way of assuring the development of this institution. But, of course, when a strong man leaves, people forget quickly, and quickly the city manager put pressure on the state to purchase back the land which the city had bought ahead for us. Actually, I think the records would show the state never did buy all the land, and the city did make some contribution in money itself.

They were also influential in getting the Norfolk Redevelopment and Housing to come in, as a project, and clear additional areas which the state purchased back after some years as we’d go to the legislature and ask for additional money for land. But the city helped us only in that way. I don’t think we ever received an out—and—out contribution for the support of the institution from the city of Norfolk.

Sweeney: What about the pilings for the library?

Webb: The pilings for the library definitely were a gift from Mr. Duckworth’s legis--from Mr. Duckworth’s council. At the time we were proposing the building, I showed him the plan —— the long—range plan. The library was then to be put exactly where the School of Education is now. He asked me why. He said, "If you put it over there, it’s going to break up those two blocks, and the city’s going to lose revenue from the taxes because the people are going to move out. Why don’t you just stick to the other side of 48th Street and put it on the corner of 48th and Hampton Boulevard?" "Well, there are two reasons. One is the land doesn’t go all the way to Hampton Boulevard. There’s a gasoline station in between and a tavern, and a few other things in between." And he said, "Well, we’ll buy up all we can." They actually bought up a laundry, and they bought a tavern, and some other little stores that were along Hampton Boulevard. The big Texaco station on the corner of 48th

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and Hampton was not purchased. It was too expensive at that time to go into. It was later purchased by the Redevelopment and Housing. But they purchased the land and said, "Now, if we have that, why don’t you put it there." We said, "Well, Mayor, you know that the back side of 48th Street, the north side of 48th Street, is a former city dump." Where 49th Street is now located was a fill — a garbage fill, and there was just no bottom there. "Can’t possibly put the building there. It would cost me $100,000 to pile to support the building. I don’t have enough money in the building to take $100,000 to pile it." He said, "Well, suppose somebody gave you the piling?" I said, "I’d put it right there." He said, "Well, you'll have the money for the piling." The money was provided by the city to pile. Immediately I had this city engineer on my back.

He said, "Lewis, I understand you’re going to pile for this building." I said, "Yes, Mr. Morris, that we certainly are. We have to. It’s a dump there. There was a ravine, a little branch of the Lafayette River came right in there. And it still rises and falls with the tide." He said, "I know that. I’ve been piling in Norfolk for more years than you were born." I said, ‘I doubt that, but anyway, you’re not that much older than I am." He said, "Well, you needn’t go into the piling that you want. I’ve looked at it. You’re calling for nearly a hundred foot piles there." I said, "That’s right. We’ve had borings made. And the borings show that we won’t even hit support until we have passed ninety feet. And then it will pick up layers of sand which will support the pilings." He said, "Haven’t you ever heard of skin friction?" I said, "Certainly, I know. I’m an engineer. But I also know that silt doesn’t give you any skin friction." He said, "Well, the Larchmont Bridge is all built that way on thirty—foot piles." He said, Carlisle, Mr. Marsh said, "I cannot take a million dollars which is very hard to come by, put a building on that site and have it cracked to pieces in a matter of a few years due to settlement. I can’t do it. Money comes too hard for me, and I can’t do that." He said, "Well, suppose I demonstrate that thirty—foot piles would do it?" I said, Of course, if you can demonstrate that thirty—foot piles will do it, I’ll be glad to. But you can’t do it. We’ve had the borings weighed. We know what’s under there. He said, "I’ll have a man that’ll come and put some test piles down for you and show you that you can do that. No point in wasting a hundred thousand dollars of the city’s money. He’ll do the whole building for ten thousand dollars." I said, "Carl, I will gladly have him come out any time and test pile."

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So, sure enough, in about a week, a man came out with a rig, and he set up his pile driver, and they put up a forty—foot pile under it, and he hit it about four times, and the pile slid right on out of sight. I was watching, and I said, "See, nothing’s there but silt." He said, "No, no. I’ve driven piles long enough to know it’s just a few more feet down." He picked up another pile and put on top of that. And he put the hammer on it. He didn’t have to hit it. The weight of the hammer pushed it out of sight. So he picked up his rig and went on home. We never heard from him again, never got a bill for his test piling. We went ahead with our piling, which was driving a sheet steel tube, and when the resistance was a proper amount, which was after going through several lenses of sand to hit a lens big enough to give us a load bearing. Then the pile was poured, and the building to this day is not settled any that we can notice. The ground around it has settled considerably. If you look at the Fine Arts Building, which is also on the pile, you’ll see we’ve added two complete steps to get in to the back of that building. In other areas it’s settled even more than that. And, this extra weight of dirt that we put on top the ground to level it has pushed the silt down, and it gradually settles —— the street settles, any load you put on it settles. The buildings are sitting up on piles —— they’re not settling. But the land around it definitely settled. Those piles averaged over a hundred feet, some of them were a 110 feet long, some were 90 feet, but the average was well borne out by the final piling for the building.

Sweeney: On another building on the campus, why did it take so long for the Science Building to be constructed after it was approved in 1938 and wasn’t completed until 1954, I believe?

Webb: I can remember those days, just in ‘38, Mr. Duke —— this was very shortly after Dean Hodges was dismissed, Mr. Duke was sent down to take over the Division. He was a businessman, very conservative. He wouldn’t allow me to spend the money in the beginning because of the war —— the possibility of war and the possibility of a shortage. So he said, "Don’t start the building because it will never be finished. The war will catch you, and you won’t have anything completed."

So after the war, we said, "Let’s get that building. We need it badly. We have students pouring in here, we have temporary buildings —- let’s build the science building."

"No," he said. "If you’ll check, you’ll see the cost of labor is way out of sight, building materials are way inflated. Just wait a year and things will come down and return to normal."

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Of course, normal never returned, and it was not until 1954--'53, I succeeded in getting him to let that money go. And, of course, we had to have it supplemented. There was nowhere near enough to build it after the war.

Sweeney: In his final budget recommendation in 1954, Governor Battle cut your request by a full 50%. Did you believe that the Democratic organization or Byrd Machine was hostile to the school or to the whole Tidewater area in general?

Webb: No, that’s just the way the Byrd Machine works. The Byrd Machine’s a very conservative machine, and their policy in making budgets is, "How much did you get last year? Were you able to survive last year? Well, if you did, you can survive next year with the same amount —— possibly with a slight increase for the cost of living." And all state budgets were made out that way. In fact, they’re even made out that way today. You’ll find they’ll simply say, "What did it take last year?" Not, what services are needed there and what will they cost, that doesn’t come into the picture. We try to enter that to make them see that, "Look, we can’t talk about a school of two hundred students here, now we’re talking about a school of two thousand students or four thousand or eight thousand. And each year we are getting more and more students. We can’t continue with the same budget." But, in spite of that, the budget director would always say, "Well, look, you got a 15% increase last year. What do you want? The University of Virginia didn’t get but a 15% increase." I said, "Yes, but look. The University of Virginia is not growing like the Norfolk Division is growing."

"Well, we’re treating everybody fair and square. We’ve given them a 15% increase." That was the year that the Governor came here to listen to the budgets, and he very carefully pointed out to me that he was treating us fair and he was giving us the same percentage —— that his budget director had told him we were getting the same percentage that VPI got, that the University of Virginia got.

I said, "Governor, 15% of nothing is nothing. Now our budget, if it’s $50,000 —— 15% of it is $7,500 you’re giving us. If the University of Virginia’s budget is $5,000,000, which it is, you’re giving them 15% of $5,000,000. Which would you rather have, 15% of $5,000,000 or 15% of $50,000? And that’s where we’re getting further and further out of line. This thing of giving us equal percentages is simply killing us because we’re dropping further and further behind each year."

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"But that is simply the way the budgets were made up." Then even to this day they’ll still look, "What did you get last year?" The current budget which they’re working on right now says, "We’ll use as a base... " What? Need? No. What you got last year. Now if you were starved last year, that’s still going to be the basis. If you were in clover last year, you’re still going to be in clover. There’s no real logic given in making budgets in this state. It’s all emotional. It’s who can present the biggest emotional cry. Dear old VMI, dear old William and Mary, dear old University of Virginia. Not where is the need, and where are we spending the best money, where are we getting the best for our dollars. That is the least of their consideration when they make out the budget.

Sweeney: Was that Governor Battle that statement about a uniform 15% increase?

Webb: Yes. Uh, huh. I’m pretty sure it was Governor Battle that asked me, and I told him that 15% of nothing was still nothing.

Sweeney: You can combine the next two questions. It’s about the period about 1954 when the school began to offer the four—year degrees and didn’t have the proper facilities. Did you fear that not having the proper facilities and not having a decent library might jeopardize the accreditation of the school; and, in that year 1954 when the initial appropriation was made for the Hughes Library, did you go about lobbying for this in the legislature?

Webb: That was one of the big clubs that we used. The fear that we could not be accredited without proper library facilities. And we used that to the hilt. This was done knowing that it was being used this way, and even the Southern Association, when they came down and inspected, they looked at the potential of the university for service, and they knew that this university was a necessity. But they also knew that we had to get these facilities, and so they said very frankly, "We’re going to give you a club to use in your work to get the proper facilities. This club is, we’re going to look again in two years —— two more years to see whether or not you have gotten the library and other facilities you need. If you don’t, you’re going to lose accreditation. And, use this to the best of your advantage."

And we did.

Sweeney: And you lobbied for that library?

Webb: Oh, yes, we lobbied for the library with our local

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legislators, with all of our friends. Many of our faculty members knew legislators in other parts of the state, and they would introduce me to them, so I would have talked with the legislators to explain "What is the Norfolk Division?" After all, a man from Tazwell had very little interest in spending any money in this side of the state. And you had to convince him, "Now, look. This is something that I’ll just do. We must get it. We need it." And so the sell was made. That was where our advisory board also came into being--came into play, not came into being. It came into being when I first took over. But they worked with me very hard, on legislators from all over the state, to get enough support to get the library, to get our appropriations up, and to get our facilities so that we would not lose accreditation.

Sweeney: Why did you recommend an addition to the science building for a bookstore and a cafeteria almost immediately after the building was finished?

Webb: At that time we had no facility for feeding our students. Of course, these were day students, and they came from areas around, but they still needed lunch, snacks, and they were being fed by Larchmont Elementary School across the street, which was not satisfactory either to the lunchroom there or to our students. And so we desperately needed some place on our own campus where we could have this. And, we needed a place to sell our books and supplies. The reason I selected the science building was knowing very well that in just a few years that the sciences would have to be increased in size and that we would have funds to build a better book shop and a cafeteria. So that wing was built with in mind, in fact, it was joined to the other building so we had simply knocked out a passageway to get from the front of the science building back to what is now the addition to the science building. That was done simply to give us a temporary relief and to know that the building would be used in the future for science.

Sweeney: After the Brown decision was handed down by the Supreme Court, you announced that the school would operate under a non segregated policy until the governor’s committee had met. Two questions on this: What was the reaction to this policy from Williamsburg and from the state government in Richmond? And, second, is it not conceivable that, if blacks had begun to be admitted in 1954, that the racial identification of Old Dominion and Norfolk State might not have occurred since Norfolk State, then a branch of Virginia State, still had not established a four—year program here in Norfolk?

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Webb: Well, that’s good speculation. We felt, of course, that opening the school to blacks -— to qualified blacks —— would not in any way hurt us and was a thing that was that properly done. However, immediately I had my hand called by William and Mary. They were petrified at the thought that part of the William and Mary system would be integrated, and, if it were, they wouldn’t be able to justify keeping William and Mary itself segregated. Their fear seemed to be, at that time, the women. I think if it had been a boys’ school, that they could have absorbed two or three blacks and not have bent over too far, but they were desperately afraid that one black woman admitted to the campus —- or even one black man admitted to the campus where there were white women —— would be something atrocious. And so, they simply said no.

Well, the policy had been announced, and we had one applicant, only one applicant. As far as I could see in any of his tests that he was perfectly qualified, a good, clean—living boy, and quite bright. They sent a committee down from William and Mary to look over the boy’s background and qualifications to see if they could find some loophole to deny him admission. They frankly couldn’t find it, but they did deny him admission anyway, and at that time he didn’t have the legal backing of the N.A.A.C.P. or any other source, the American Civil Liberties Union, to protest it, and he had plenty of other institutions to go to with scholarships, and so there was nothing done. But he was not admitted. It hurt me very much because he was well qualified. I wouldn’t want to see the entire change made, such as integrating totally with Norfolk State, for a number of reasons, and I expressed these reasons to the federal... the educational group that came down from Washington to want to know why we were not totally integrated. The standards of admission would have to be lowered in order to accommodate the number that they had. This, I still firmly believe that education can be provided for both groups, but I am not willing to see the standards of education sacrificed simply because of race, creed or color. The standards of education should be above any race creed or color. I believe that we don’t have the number that we should have, and that there are students qualified at Norfolk State to come, but the only barrier... as the national education group pointed out, there was a barrier —- and the only barrier is the one they make themselves. If they come, their applications will be treated according to their merits. But say they don’t come. I say no, they don’t come because they feel more comfortable in a situation where the pressure is less on them, the standards are definitely less on them, and they’re in a group of their own —— blacks, and they enjoy it, like to work with each other, and they feel they are giving up something when they move away from it. We're not having a large number. . .

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Sweeney: How was the cooperative program in engineering succeeding? How well did it benefit the student? How well was it received by VPI?

Webb: We started the program locally. At the time it was —— and I still believe it to be the best type of program for training an engineer. It takes longer. The student is at least a year longer in obtaining his bachelor’s degree. But he, in the process, has determined whether or not he would like to work in the field of engineering —— the thing that engineers do. And he is also a great deal more interested in his course work when he sees applications in industry of what he is studying in the class.

We started this, and VPI came in the second year. It requires a considerable number of students to properly operate on an economical level, and so, after two years, we’d train —— most of our students would shift to VPI in order to finish up the program there. It’s a very successful program in that it develops a very practical engineer and one that can move quickly into industry without the normal delay of break—in and apprentice—type work that the strictly academic engineer has to go through. I’m firmly convinced that this type of program should be followed, not just for engineering, but for business students, and nursing, quite a number of other areas where it should be used.

Sweeney: Why and how seriously did you advance the idea of a combined city and college library in Norfolk?

Webb: The idea was advanced simply as a stop—gap method of obtaining the facility for our own university. I had to look in every direction to find some way to satisfy the needs. When I saw that the city itself had a tremendous need for a library, and was doing practically nothing about it, and suddenly there was an interest on the part of a number of leading citizens to improve the library facilities of the city. I felt that the two could be combined into an urban type library, and I still think it could have been done successfully with less expensive money than finally resulted. Of course, the final result is the better system. When we both have libraries, they both serve different purposes, but the question at the time was not will one be more advantageous than the other, but what can we do to get either one? And I felt that the city was not putting a great deal of support in, and they wouldn’t have except for gifts that suddenly materialized, and

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it shamed the city into matching the gifts. But if it hadn’t been for that, the city would have ended up with a second—class, poorly developed public library. And we would have also had developed poor library facilities. Yet in the long run the city has benefited by the separation, and we have, too. But at the time neither had a decent library and both needed a library very badly, so I pushed to please take what little funds both of us had and make one facility that could serve the community.

Sweeney: Did you feel any reluctance toward approving off—campus fraternity and sorority houses? Did you have any regrets about your approving them?

Webb: No, I did not. Those fraternities have served a very useful purpose for this institution. If we don’t have dormitories, if we don’t have normal conditions for students to gather to associate with each other and to learn from each other, the fraternities are very useful things —— and sororities.

Of course, there’s a certain element of snobbishism, or whatever you would like to call it, that does develop, and, undoubtedly, it hurts certain people when they are not able to get into the fraternity of their choice. But, at the same time, these furnish the leadership of the students —— of the student body, leadership was furnished from these groups on campus. Also, athletic programs, the intramural programs flourished simply because of the social groups, the little satellite groups which were formed around these fraternities and sororities.

I don’t regret having brought them to the campus. I think they served a real purpose in enabling us to move ahead.

THIRD INTERVIEW SESSION ENDS HERE

Additional Webb interviews ...