Additional Webb interviews ...

[Transcript continued from December 3, 1974]

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Webb: Well, to answer the first… the last part of the question, it is more difficult to get money for what the legislature sometimes calls "frills," which is arts, but we desperately needed some place for our music department and our art department. The art department had been located in one of the shacks which was the hundred by twenty foot tarpaper buildings with the coal—fired, pot bellied stove in each room, and that had to be moved, and the music department was located in several places, one being the former coal bin of the Old Academic Building. The organ and the pianos were creating considerable disturbance for the classes which were nearby, and they had to be relocated. So we did push very hard to get that building, which was needed, and we were able to get it.

The design of the building is not exactly that of the dormitory from Florida University, but probably ideas were taken from such a building. The architect wanted to test the theory that opened corridors on the outside of the building which needed no heat, very little light, would be an economical way to build a building in the Norfolk area. He felt that the weather here was such that these buildings need not have the corridors inside where they had to be heated, had to be lighted, an expensive form of operation. Therefore, they built porches or balconies around the building and, in effect, that is true for this section of the country. The main objections we got when the building was completed was objections due to the location of the toilet facilities. As in the rest of the buildings we finally constructed, there was a shortage of funds and we had to cut, which meant that, on the second floor, where there is a concentration of the utilities such as

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the heating, ventilating system and the toilets, we had to put the men’s toilet on the first floor and the women’s toilet on the second floor, or vice versa, rather than have the men and women’s toilets on each floor. As a result, when a person on the second floor must go to the first floor to use these facilities, he leaves the center of the building, goes to the end, goes down, comes back to the center to the other facility, which meant considerable walking and irritation. This was never intended; in fact, as a compromise we were going to put in a stairwell in the middle of the building which went from the first to the second floor. But, again, this was eliminated due to lack of funds.

Also, the building was designed to be air conditioned and pretty effectively sound proofed so that sound didn’t go from one room to another. However, there were not enough funds provided to put in the cooling part of the air conditioning system, and so, as a result, all the windows in the practice areas are opened, and the sound barriers, of course, are done away with by the sound going out the windows and into the open windows of the other areas. But if that building were properly air conditioned and the windows kept closed, there would be a very effective design for the music department. I’m still of the opinion that that could be a very effective building for the purpose for which it was designed —— art and music. But, again, shortage of funds has caused the building to be less useful than it had been hoped for.

As the sideline, I’ll tell you one interesting thing that happened in the design of the building. On the second floor the art department asked for sky lights which were opened up into the two large areas where we had the actual art classes and painting. And so they wanted north lighting to come through those sky lights. The architect forgot to be extremely explicit in the specifications and failed to note that the glass must be clear, translucent white glass. When the sky light was put in, it was a green—— almost a bottle—green glass. And Mr. Sibley and the rest of the artists in the art department came screaming that their whole concept of teaching in those two spaces was completely ruined with the green glass. And, of course, we had to remove the green glass and put in clear glass at a little extra expense to the university. That’s just one of the many little things that happened in the design and final use... utilization of the building.

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Sweeney: You’ve already stated that there was a strong feeling in Richmond in the late 1950’s that the school should remain a part of William and Mary, so I think we can pass that particular question by. The next one, in 1959 there was a plan advanced to unite Norfolk State College —— the Norfolk College and William and Mary and Christopher Newport College, under one Board of Visitors. What was your reaction to this plan?

Webb: Of course, my reaction was completely negative. This would have been the worst thing possible for any of the individuals involved, and I opposed this vigorously. I’m not sure what would have been accomplished by putting those together. The final.. . as things have shown, that Christopher Newport would have no real meaning to the Norfolk College, and if it was to remain as part of one of the major colleges, it should stay under William and Mary and not under Old Dominion. The same way as I’ve expressed my feeling before concerning Norfolk State. That was not the time, nor is the time now, to put together the two student bodies of these two institutions without extreme harm to both student bodies. Perhaps ten, twenty—five years from now, this would be feasible. But at this point and at that point especially it would have been extremely harmful to both student bodies.

Sweeney: In that 1957 election for governor, we’ve talked about Ted Dalton’s position on the aid to the college. In that campaign Lindsay Almond promised to aid the college, yet as governor he cut the budget for it severely. Could you explain this discrepancy?

Webb: No way that I could explain it except that Lindsay Almond, of course, was a politician, and politicians don’t always remember their promises of aid when they’re soliciting votes. After they obtain the votes, their attitudes may change. Again, I say that the governors don’t always follow too carefully the work of their budget committees, which may be done by professionals and members of the legislature. And sometimes the governor doesn’t have any idea of what has been changed or eliminated from his budget, which is again why there is an avenue for review given after the budget is printed. But, of course, it is very difficult after the budget is printed to obtain changes as funds for making those changes are very limited.

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Sweeney: In 1960 did you seriously consider cutting freshman enrollment if the state did not give the Division more money?

Webb: Yes, we had to give serious consideration to that. The state —-not the state, but the accrediting agency, the Southern Association of Colleges, was very explicit in that we meet a minimum support, and if we didn’t get this, we would lose accreditation. And so, rather than to jeopardize accreditation of the institution, I would undoubtedly have cut back on the enrollment of freshmen. This was not necessary, however, in the final result. But it certainly came up many times in our considerations. How far can we go in serving the needs of the community with the amount of money which is provided for us to do this. And in serving the community, we must, of course, also serve them with a standard of quality and that we must continue to be accredited.

Sweeney: How did federal urban renewal funds aid in the development of the college?

Webb: It aided in considerable measure in giving us a vehicle in which to obtain the housing on the south side of 48th Street from Hampton Boulevard down to Elkhorn Avenue. The area at that time was dominantly low—class housing, principally black housing, although there was some white housing involved in it, and this housing was very deteriorated; much, much of it was substandard with inadequate water and sewage supply as well as electricity, in many cases. Heating was inadequate, and families living within the area definitely should have been relocated. I don’t think the college was in any way wrong in joining with Norfolk Redevelopment and Housing to request they step in and obtain this land for us. The people involved, in most cases, were tenants with an absentee landlord that was bleeding as much as he could from the property, but in a number of cases some of the blacks had put down very hard—earned money, several thousands of dollars, into these places. The difficulty arises not in did the Redevelopment give adequate compensation for those places because in no case did they pay less than the properties were worth, and they were evaluated very carefully by professional appraisers. They normally paid 10% more than they were appraised for in order to avoid the cost of court action. But many cases ——the person who was displaced didn’t want equivalent housing. Take, for example, here’s a home that they had two bedrooms, a small living room and a kitchen —- no bath at all, and then he was paid $5,000 for that home. He wanted another

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place, but the place he wanted would have a tile bath in it and a modern kitchen as well as central heat which was not in the other place. And you couldn’t obtain this for $5,000. And so the big objection came when these people tried to find quarters in other places in town and were trying to find them at prices that were equal to what they obtained from Norfolk Redevelopment and Housing, which, of course, was not possible.

Sweeney: We talked about the second part of that question about the... how the college dealt with the families in that area —— how the city dealt with them. The next question is how did the Norfolk Division students react to the lunch counter sit-ins of the early 1960’s which were aimed at ending segregation, and how did you feel about the students at the college participating at these sit—ins?

Webb: The officials of the university, the college at that time, took no action to say to the students, "You may not take part in these sit—ins," yet, of course, we didn’t go out and support them, encourage them to take part in sit—ins either. You must remember that in those days, and this will answer another question which you will raise a little later, I’m sure, concerning the part that students play and the part the university approves and tolerates, and the part they object to in bringing in controversial speakers or taking part in controversial affairs in the name of the university and in the name of the college. We were trying to develop a college. At any time this little seedling which was planted could be killed. The feeling in the town, and we were depending on the town for our support. The state, of course, was definitely against integration, having mixed groups at places like the lunch counters and so on. And while personally I had no feeling myself in this regard, I could not when I saw the undoubted reactions of the people who were helping us to build this university say, "Oh, well, just ignore them. Go ahead and do what should be done." Which is to sit—in on these places and break up the practice. You might say this is a coward’s way to avoid doing right, but when I look at the overall long range gains to everyone, then I say what would be better: to temporarily go through a period of not having the integration, or to go through many, many years of not having a university which would serve these people. And, in my opinion, the long range gain to everyone was that this university be built. And I probably did many things that you won’t understand -— you wouldn’t appreciate unless you look at it in the light of what effect would that have on the development of this university. And

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I am determined that this is the most important thing, and to temporarily put aside even things that were wrong or right was justified in the light of the quite possible results that would have happened if this college had encouraged those students to get in and do the sit—ins. The reaction would have been so that we would have suffered considerably. We, I mean the university.

Sweeney: You discussed the plans in the early 1960’s to set up a department of geology. What became of those plans?

Webb: In that time there was interest not in just starting a department of geology but developing a four—year course and a degree in geology in which the concentration would be on what we’ll call, rather than rock geology, but mud geology. Because in this area you had to dig mighty deep to find any rock. But there’s a very large area of our United States —- and of the world for that matter is devoid of rock for a long —- a great depth. And this area of geology has been neglected, and we felt that it, there should be more emphasis put on the study of areas in which the geology would play a very prominent part in both our livelihood, because the seas, the oceans, the salt marshes, the flatlands, the productive agricultural areas all have a very interesting geology and one which should be studied, and so I was promoting the geology for this reason. It became apparent that we couldn’t get approval from the state council and others for this program, and so it probably just faded away. We actively, of course, incorporated geology into the physical sciences, and it’s a part of the physics and geophysical sciences department. And it’s still a very fundamental part of the university, and a very needed one, to have people study more of the geology of the area in which a large part of the United States resides.

Sweeney: In the early 1960’s another building was authorized and constructed on the campus, and that’s the building in which we now sit, Chandler Hall. I wonder what their rationale was in bringing the business and physics departments together in the same building.

Webb: Again it’s a question of how much need we have immediately and how much need will we have in the future. To get money to fit the immediate needs doesn’t always answer the long— range needs of the university. I was quite confident that the university would expand and that both of these departments would need additional space and, rather than have little small buildings and chopped up buildings, one larger building could

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be more economically constructed and provide for the future expansion of the school of business or the department of sciences, whichever need should come first. Now at this particular time it was quite obvious that the school of business was hurting for space if they were to stay in the same building, and the department of physics was being pushed out of the building. They’ve deal of difficulty hanging on to the space they have. The long range plan was that the department of physics would have a separate building ——a building parallel to the chemistry building, and would evacuate these spaces and give space for the school of business to expand. Unfortunately, that building, which was rather high on the priority list, is rather low down on the priority list now, and there’s no plan in the near future to provide for the department of physics. The department of physics as it is located now would be difficult to move to another temporary location. It’s very expensive for the wiring ——the heavy wiring which is required for the research part ——and the laboratories, as well as for the gas for the experimental work and for dark rooms and other special research areas which are in this building. However, I see no future for the physics department in this building and feel that it must move. But the idea was that this would happen, but that when the time was needed to do that, the other space would be provided for it.

Sweeney: In 1960 you predicted that the college would have a law school. Why did this prediction fail to come true?

Webb: Well, for several reasons, one being the separation from the College of William and Mary, which killed off that chance to bringing the law school here. The law school is improperly located in the College of William and Mary for a number of reasons. The law school should be in the heart of an urban area where the lawyers can take additional courses in the evening and afternoons, as well as train new lawyers and new persons for the field of law. Back in the ‘50’s and early ‘60’s the School of Law at William and Mary was a very small and insignificant operation and was floundering badly, and the Board had just about made up its mind to move that law school to Norfolk. You can imagine how much interest it was in moving it here when we were separated from the College of William and Mary. Since that time, of course, the enrollment at the College of William and Mary Law School has grown, and now it would be extremely difficult to move it, although it should never have been allowed to expand in the location it is, in my opinion.

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Sweeney: In 1961 you stated the desirability of a four—year engineering program at Norfolk College of William and Mary, but you noted that other colleges in the state were opposed to it. I wondered why this was so and if, that being the case, how was it that Norfolk College of William and Mary succeeded as Old Dominion University —- Old Dominion College in getting a separate engineering program?

Webb: Well, this is rather a long story, but if you want to listen to it, I’ll give you what I know about it. The engineering being taught in the state of Virginia was started at the University of Virginia and Virginia Polytechnic Institute and Virginia Military Institute. Those were three schools having degree programs in engineering, and Norfolk Division was operating a two—year program with mainly feeding into VPI. It was quite obvious that engineering training again should be done in a situation that was urban and engineering oriented. I graduated from VPI and I saw what happened to that school, and I also have/seen the same thing happen at the University of Virginia and other engineering schools located in small rural areas. A piece of equipment that the school obtains has the cost of many thousands of dollars, soon becomes obsolete, and is replaced with more modern and more efficient pieces of equipment by industry; however, the college or university can’t afford to throw away those pieces of equipment and so they continue to train their students using these obsolete things as examples of good engineering which, of course, they were not. In order to make up for this, many schools would take their students on field trips to let them see modern equipment in action and modern engineering design. This is not very effective. I felt that the engineering school should be located in an urban area where the area itself would provide the main laboratory for the student. He would see in actual use from the manufacturing concerns in the area just what engineering really meant and how new equipment was being utilized and more effectively put into use in both design and practical use. In the Hampton Roads area we have the big NASA complex with large sums of money that was spent for research equipment, and we had the big Navy Yards and other industrial firms right within ten to fifteen minutes’ drive of the college, and for this reason I felt that a student in engineering should obtain his education where these things are available on a daily basis, not once a year or during their senior year take a trip to see them. This also led to the development by us of the Co—op Engineering Program which

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was started here and then transferred to VPI. In both cases the interests were in getting the engineer in a more practical form of education. The objection, of course, came violently from the University of Virginia and VPI; VMI did not object, that is, we didn’t hear of an objection on their part although they probably had some reservations. But the other schools were, and their argument was at that time the applications for students in engineering were low and the university’s program in engineering was very small, and should have been phased out at that time but, again, political considerations rather than considerations of economy and utilization overpowered the decision and the university’s engineering program was not closed. But it should have been moved down here lock, stock, and barrel, but the university objected, saying that they would take care of all students that had need for engineering training and that they had plenty of room. We said, that’s odd if we have several hundred students studying engineering here. Why don’t they go to the university? And, again, the answer was that they can’t afford to go to the university, but they can live at home and take their training at an urban university where they can get their room and board at home and also where they can obtain part—time jobs and their wives can also find employment to support them. In any case, I would bring this up to the state council over and over again that there was a need for engineering training in the Norfolk area. And each time I’d be beaten down by VPI and the University of Virginia. Finally, I forced so much attention on it through my friends in the area and the engineering groups in the area that the state council was forced to recognize that something should be studied, at least, to see if there was need. All the engineering societies in this area, Engineers Club of Hampton Roads, consisting of some three or four hundred members, the Tidewater Chapter of the Virginia Society of Professional Engineers, the Tidewater Chapter of the American Military Engineers, the local chapter of Civil Engineers and the local chapter of Radio and Electrical Engineers. All were joining me in expressing a need for a four—year program in engineering. The state council, the director, Dr. McFarland, finally said, well, why don’t we make a study at least and demonstrate there is or is not a need. The Junior Chamber of Commerce had done a big study here, and their book showed an obvious need for engineering as well as a four—year liberal arts work and he finally said, "All right, I’ll appoint a

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committee to look into whether there is a need for an engineering program in the Norfolk area. I’ll put on the committee the Dean of Engineering at VPI, Dean of Engineering at the University of Virginia, and you(Webb), and you three come in with a report," McFarland said. I said, "Well, Bill, you’re just wasting my time and theirs, too. No report could come out of that committee except a negative one that couldn’t possibly be an unbiased committee." I said, "Well, let’s bring in people from out of the state, people completely disinterested in and make a decent study of this. Of course, this received objections from the University of Virginia and VPI both, but finally there was enough pressure put on them to say, "All right, I’ll tell you what I’ll do. I’ll form a committee of the Dean of VPI, Dean of University of Virginia and you(Webb), and each one of you bring in an outside person. In other words, there’ll be three persons brought in from out of the state." This wasn’t much better. I had then the possibility of six people and four to vote one way and two to vote another, but I saw that I wouldn’t get any further, and I agreed that I’d take this at least to continue moving toward the engineering program. VPI selected, I think, Dean Lampe from N. C. State. Those institutions were comparable to each other, and the deans were friendly, so they thought that would be a good man for VPI to bring in to look over their situation. I think the University of Virginia brought in someone from the Michigan State, but I’m not actually certain. You’ll have to look back in the records to be certain of that. And I brought in a man from Yale. These men met and, when they did, we had prepared the ground pretty thoroughly. They were given appropriate meetings with local engineers. I had a Navy helicopter fly them over the entire area to show them the industrial sites so they could get an overall view of what this area was like in size and complexity. They met for a day and a half to discuss whether or not there was a need. As you may see, the results were pretty well obvious to any real unbiased engineer like, of course, I was. Finally Dean Lampe said to the group, "Look," he said to the Dean of the School of Engineering at the University of Virginia but in the presence of the rest of them, "Why don’t we quit fooling this thing and go ahead and admit that there’s need for an engineering school here? It’s quite obvious." Of course, the dean was highly denied such a thing, but the rest voted, and so I won the argument with Dean Lampe voting in favor of the school. In fact, everybody except the Dean at VPI and Dean at University of Virginia voted that we needed the

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school here. So I won 4 to 2. This was a big step forward. This opened the ground to the development of the School of Engineering.

Sweeney: In 1961 plans were announced for the establishment of Virginia Wesleyan College. Why did you see no threat in the establishment of this college to the health of the Norfolk College of William and Mary and you had no fear that there would be competition for the same students?

Webb: No, I still don’t think there’s any real fear of competition there. They will attract a certain group of students. Many of these students would not have come here in any case and they would be limited undoubtedly by the size of the institution, by the funds that were available to them. I know Methodists of old, and I know Methodists of starving their own colleges they had at that time. I didn’t see any sudden change in their methods of granting funds to support a large university in this area although it might have been needed. It just wasn’t feasible for them to do such a thing. So I know that this institution will remain small and will remain a liberal arts institution and many students —- not many —— a limited group of students will be attracted to a small, basically limited program in liberal arts which this institution will provide. And for certain students, this is what they want, and we couldn’t supply their needs here. This is going to be a large university with a very wide variety of programs and not the same type of institution which would be provided by Virginia Wesleyan. There’s plenty of room for both of us. There’s sufficient students in the area to fill —— overflowing —— both institutions. I think they would complement each other rather than offer competition. And that’s the way it’s working out now. The two institutions complement each other, and there is no fear on my part that we will be harmed by the students that they attract which might come to this institution. We will pick up many of their students in their junior and senior years and after they graduate from Virginia Wesleyan to fill into special programs. After two years in a liberal arts situation, many find their career would be better suited along more specialized lines than Virginia Wesleyan can provide. We are now transferring students and we will always continue to transfer those who find that the offerings at the small liberal arts college does not provide him with what he wants and what he needs and will pick up these students at a more

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mature time and fill in the junior and senior levels which, of course, are places where we need students rather than in the freshman and sophomore levels.

Sweeney: In 1961 the Southern Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools conducted an accreditation study of the college. I wondered if you’d experienced any difficulty in gaining accreditation at that time and if it were a thorough review?

Webb: A very thorough review was made. In fact, before we had the team come to make their inspections, this institution was in the throes of a self—evaluation and preparing for it. I’ve served on many committees of the Southern Association and inspecting other colleges and I knew what that group would look for when they came here. So we prepared and we spent our funds as wisely as we could on the educational programs of this institution. The only thing we had to fear was the library would be inadequate and that our physical plant might be slightly inadequate. But at the time we started our drive for raising funds -— local funds for books for the library and other support. We were able to show them that the weaknesses which they could obviously spot would be overcome very quickly with the local support that we were getting from the citizens in the area. So we didn’t have very many things brought to our attention that we didn’t already know and that we couldn’t accomplish in the reasonable length of time. The accreditation was not delayed. Actually, we received the accreditation much quicker than the average college does, as you may note by the number of years in which we operated and then received accreditation. We did it in the minimum length of time.

Sweeney: You talked about the William and Mary Board of Visitors and their reluctance to follow the State Council for Higher Education’s recommendation that the Norfolk college be separated from its parent institution. But we haven’t talked about President Davis Y. Paschall of the College of William and Mary and his personal reaction to the separation at that time. And I wondered also if Alvin Chandler, who by then had become the chancellor of the College of William and Mary, played any role in stimulating opposition on the Board of Visitors to the separation of the Norfolk college from the parent institution?

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Webb: If, of course, what I say is an opinion and can only be supported by Dr. Paschall himself, if he were willing at this point to do that, but I was very close to Dr. Paschall and I considered him a close friend. I worked with him for many years, and I think I know how he thinks and he functions, and I know very definitely that he had no desire that the College of William and Mary would be the big complex of some five to six small colleges — satellite colleges —— around the College of William and Mary. He wanted to keep the College of William and Mary as reasonably small —— I don’t mean small in terms of 600 —— but I mean the small of several thousand students devoted primarily to the art and liberal art type of university. He did not want it to become a big multi—divisional type of university as was envisioned by Mr. Chandler. Dr. Paschall could not come out and give these views himself. He was under considerable political pressure, and he had his own job at stake if he would get right to it that he should foster such a thing as that. Although in conversation with him and I’m sure that you will find many other people that were alumni of William and Mary who would support me when I say that Dr. Paschall had an interest in keeping a small liberal arts type of university there. Of course, Mr. Chandler was quite opposed to any such view to William and Mary and wanted to see it the dominant university of the state. And at one time was in total numbers, in complexity far larger than VPI or the University of Virginia. This ultimately led to the downfall of the system. I didn’t break up the system. I was opposed to it and fought to break it up, but the real destruction of that system came from the University of Virginia and not from me. See, the University of Virginia saw very clearly the dominant role which William and Mary would soon be playing in the state’s educational program and were determined that this would . not be. They as much as any single group of alumni, members of the legislature and so on influenced the Governor Harrison to break up this system. I don’t think you’ll ever be able to document this, but this is factual if anything I’ve ever said is factual, that the system was broken up by the University of Virginia.

Sweeney: On the Board of Visitors at William and Mary then was it a fact that Admiral Chandler had tremendous influence on the members of that Board much greater than President Paschall had?

Webb: Oh yes, quite. President Paschall was not the type to exercise extreme leadership of a Board of Visitors. Admiral Chandler

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was a different type of individual, far more outgoing type and more of a leader—type than Dr. Paschall, who contented to be in more of a quieter role to direct the current operations and to keep things running smoothly than to go into new innovative changes or great promotional ideas for the college. And, of course, Admiral Chandler had worked with the Board and selected by the Board to be the president and at a time when the Board needed a very strong leader that would take over. And as some of the Board, off record, said, "Put in the place of the faculty," or run that college rather than ‘have the faculty. So they picked President Chandler to do this job, and he very effectively did it. The role, of course, the influence of Mr. Chandler continued after Dr. Paschall was appointed as president of that college, and there’ was a president in Richmond, Dr. Oliver, and president in Norfolk, and I (Webb) filled that role. Each smaller campus had its provost in charge of their operations in Petersburg and Christopher Newport in Newport News. Mr. Chandler continued to wield a great deal of influence over the Board. The Board was sold on the idea that keeping the large arrangement of colleges together and was sold right up to the time that Governor Harrison reversed his stand on pushing to be let alone to operate the colleges as they thought. Of course, that did not happen.

Sweeney: Was there any single legislator or legislators influential in facilitating the passage of the bill giving the Norfolk college independent status or also we can combine that with the next one. The vote which was so lopsided -- 86 to 2 —— in the House of Delegates and 33 to 3 in the Senate? Was it really that there were no legislators responsible or was it Governor Harrison’s word and then everyone marched in line along with this?

Webb: I think you’d have to review the record of the legislature to see just who the two were in the House against the separation and who the three were in the Senate. I think you’d find that it would be representative’s from the Williamsburg area and the rest were pretty solidly University of Virginia and VPI supporters that are members of the legislature. Of course, this is also a very highly organized legislature that believes in party politics, and when the governor was selected by this group, cast his vote in favor of the breakup, many that were undecided suddenly switched over. This vote was ‘taken’ without Governor Harrison’s recommendation may have passed by a slight majority, but even that is doubtful. In any case, the landslide was attributed to Governor Harrison’s message which he said he felt that the separation was in the best interests to the Commonwealth of Virginia. You asked if I personally lobbied for this. I could not personally lobby for this. As I was told by the Board of Visitors at William and Mary, of course, that we should all be in favor of keeping this group together. I did considerable work, as they knew, with

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friends in town to see that they did lobby and that they worked for the separation which I felt was essential if this college would develop as the requirements of the area merited.

Sweeney: Two related questions on the engineering program -— I wondered if you played any role in the formation of the new engineering curriculum and how you succeeded in getting a man of the stature of Dr. John H. Lampe to be the new dean in beginning a brand new School of Engineering?

Webb: Of course, after we received approval to develop a four-year program in engineering, the first and foremost thing would be to get a leader to get this school organized and under way. Having met Harold Lampe, John H., as a member of the team who came here to see if there was a need for a four—year program in engineering, I knew once that he was a very dynamic leader and one with up—to—date ideas concerning the type of program that would be best needed to develop engineers for the area and for the state. I also knew that he was within a very short time of retiring from N. C. State. I approached him and first he turned me down cold and said, no, he had no desire to do that and his wife, of course, objected, too. They had been living in North Carolina and Raleigh area for some time and gotten accustomed to it, and their relatives and families were also in the area. She had no desire to move and, of course, she objected to his considering it. However, I kept after him and pointed out to him that, although at 64 or 65 he was a very strong, active mentally and physically, that he couldn’t possibly just retire and do nothing; and also that he would waste his talent by just taking odd jobs and consulting work around the area of the college there. I think I really shamed him into taking this job and that we needed someone badly to take hold and that we could not attract a very strong individual such as himself because the School of Engineering was not developed, was not accredited, and a great deal of work had to be done. There was no building to house it, very meager laboratories were available, and so it would be a job of building it from scratch. And to go out and bring in a Ph.D. in engineering which was also a rare breed of cat at that time, too, and say to him, "I need a man with a Ph.D. in engineering plus 25 years of experience in industry and teaching engineering to develop this, a man that knows the realistic needs of engineers and the academic side as well, just possibly wouldn’t attract him at the salary that I had to pay. At that time, the salary to pay a man like that, I think I had maybe $15,000 at the most for 12 months. He could afford to do it because he was getting retirement from his N. C. State retirement. So, I guess more than anything else, I

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convinced him that no one else could do the job like he could do the job and that he should sacrifice and come up and, as the results showed, he developed an outstanding School of Engineering, one with a different approach from the University of Virginia, a different approach of the educational engineering from VPI with a very effective type of engineering school. He helped in the planning of the building and, of course, the curriculum. He and I worked daily on developing the curriculum which would not duplicate VPI’s, which would not duplicate University of Virginia and be of a different type. We visited a different number of engineering schools such as -— I’d say we visited some 10 or 15 different schools and looked over their programs and talked to schools in large urban areas to see just how they were training their engineers. The results was the type of program which we developed and which I still feel is the effective way to educate engineers. But Dr. Lampe was employed for a limited period of time. The Board recognized that he would soon be 65 —— I think he might have been 65 the day he went to work for us or very near it, but knowing that we needed the ability of this man, they permitted him to work until age 70, and he did a grand job in getting this school underway.

FIFTH INTERVIEW SESSION ENDS HERE

Additional Webb interviews ...