Oral History Interview
with
DEAN EDWARD WHITE

Norfolk, Virginia
July 16, 1974
by James R. Sweeney, Old Dominion University

Listen to Interview

Sweeney: Today's interview is with Dean Edward White of the School of Engineering at Old Dominion University. Dean White came to then the Norfolk Division of William and Mary in the year 1932. He retired in 1974.

The first questions that I'll put to Dean White are concerned with his background, his academic preparations, what fields of interest he had, and any other careers he might have considered or pursued other than college teaching.

White: It may be of interest to know that I was born and raised in Norfolk, went to our local high school, and then went to VPI, where I was a major in electrical engineering. We graduated in 1931 with a B.S. degree. But like so many people then, the depression was really taking cm momentum and so, rather than just take any job, we decided to go back and work there as a student assistant in the physics department and earn our Master's degree in electrical engineering.

Originally I had intended to, and had a job, with the Carry Engineering, or what is now Carry Engineering it was the York Company then -- to go into their air-conditioning field as a field engineer. And, of course, that was a promising career, so I was delighted, with jobs so scarce as they were, to have this assignment. But things were breaking fast on the economic front. Just a few days before graduation, we received notice through the dean of engineering that the Board had met and rescinded all contracts and we were out of a job. But the dean explained that he had something in our back yard that night entertain us until things got better. And what I was saying also goes true for Lewis Webb -- of course, he and I were college mates together. And so he said, until things got better, why not try teaching?

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Well, I had done quite a little bit of this while in college, helping other people, student assistant in the physics department, and I found that I had some talents for it. And so that's how I got started.

Sweeney: Did you have any qualms about coming to a fledgling college like the Norfolk Division of William and Mary?

White: No, not particularly. The only qualms I had, if any, was that I'd be teaching in my front yard. I would be teaching students that I had grown up with, just a few years separating our years. But the idea of the challenge of a new division, or branch, as we called VPI in those days, was entertaining.

Sweeney: Could you tell the story, although it precedes your coming here by about a year, but the story of how the Virginia Polytechnic Institute decided to work with William and Mary in establishing an engineering program in Norfolk?

White: Well, after Dr. Chandler, who was then president of William and Mary, decided to really make an effort at the Division herein Norfolk, he invited Dr. Burruss, who was then president of VPI, to participate in the efforts here in Norfolk and to lend an insight into offering engineering programs. And so the effort was strictly associating; there was no capital outlay associated with VIP's effort. They were always reimbursed for any salaries and so forth. But we were to be given complete charge in setting up and staffing and teaching the necessary engineering courses.

Sweeney: When you came here to conduct the engineering courses, did you have the impression that the students had a genuine interest and that they, the courses that had been set up before you came, were pretty good courses, or was there a good deal lacking with both the students and the courses?

White: Well, the curriculum, of course, was patterned after that at VPI, and obviously we were in first-hand contact with that, being a student at VPI. And so the effort here was strictly to make available to the people here of Tidewater the same engineering program they had at VPI. And, of course, we found those to be good in our sight. The depression, of course, deprived many very valuable students of an opportunity to go away to college. And so we had very good students, as it turned out. Of course, I knew, as I said before, many, many of these students. So there was no question as to the nature of the program. The caliber of students that we'd get from the Tidewater area because they had always demonstrated on the VPI campus that they could do well.

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Sweeney: From the standpoint of administration, were you considered a member of the faculty of VPI in those early years?

White: Yes, from the very beginning, the arrangement afforded VPI the opportunity to assign and hire its own staff, as far as the teaching of engineering courses was concerned. And so, therefore, we were officially listed as being staffed at VPI in their branch division.

But, at the same time, our association on the campus here made us a member of this faculty, too, in spirit and in every way that you want to surmise.

Sweeney: Did you find that you had fruitful contact with your colleagues in Blacksburg or did this kind of slip away as time went on?

White: No, indeed. Our constant effort was to keep a minute contact with the faculty departments at VPI to see what they were thinking, so that we could always keep our curriculum in tune with theirs. The idea being that at any time they could leave this campus and proceed to VPI without any interruptions. So we always went back to VPI at least twice a year, sometimes more. And we made an effort here to go around to each department head and find out what their thinking was and in terms of what they were planning for the future, any change in the courses, textbooks, and so on, although we were never compelled to use the same textbooks. We were free to choose our own textbooks. In many cases we used theirs because they were good. But in many cases we made other selections.

Sweeney: Was your relationship with your colleagues here at the Division, who some of them felt themselves a part of William and Mary's faculty, affected in any way by the fact that you were not on the faculty of William and Mary?

White: No. As I said before, we were fully accepted and oriented into the program here. There was one, just one, faculty; that was anyone that was here and in the effort of teaching and having a good Division. So we all operated together and there was just a few in number in those days; they started at, I think, something like thirteen or fourteen. Maybe by the end of the first decade there was only about twenty. And so, when we felt like entertaining the faculty, we entertained the entire faculty: a little bridge party or something of that nature.

Sweeney: Could you give me any of your personal recollections on Professor William Harrington, who served as the school's first designated professor of engineering?

White: Yes. Professor Harrington we knew, or I knew, at VPI. He had been a friend on the VPI campus, as well as a personal friend from Norfolk. And so we knew him well and looked forward to being under his division. He too was an excellent administrator and professor.

Sweeney: Your title was Professor of Graphics and Mathematics at first, and then it changed to Professor of Engineering. How did this change come about?

White: In the early days, the title that you carried reflected in some degree the subject matter that you taught. We were small, and of course when we came graphics was an important subject to the curriculum of engineering. You had your freshman drawing, and then in the sophomore year they took what is called kinomatics, all of a graphical nature. Of course, engineers take a lot of formal mathematics, much more so than the liberal arts student, and therefore we needed an addition to algebra and trig, and analytical geometry, calculus and differential equations. And, of course, these were populated primarily by engineers and other science majors.

And so we carried these little titles for many, many years, and in reality I can't remember the year that they suddenly changed it to professor of engineering, although we taught any and everybody, were subject to teaching most any course in the entire two-year curriculum.

Sweeney: So then your own duties and Professor Harrington's duties, even though your titles were different, were pretty much the same?

White: Yes, other than administrative duties. Obviously, he was the WI representative here at that time.

Sweeney: Do you have any recollections of the three first directors of the Norfolk Division, Mr. Timmerman, Dr. Gwathmy, who served only briefly, of course, and Dean Hodges, who made quite an impact on the school?

White: I recall, of course, Mr. Timmerman and Dr. Gwathmy, but they were here such a short time with me that I didn't get to know them too well, but well enough to know that they were fine gentlemen and fine administrators. Of course, we worked many years with Dean Hodges, and he, of course, was beloved by the faculty as well as community, and we all were happy to serve with him.

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Sweeney: Do you recall any other outstanding personalities from the early days on the faculty, and did the faculty in those days seem to be a very close-knit group?

White: As I have already remarked, the faculty was small and closely knit. And as far as our social activities were concerned, they weren't departments. There was just one faculty group. And so we had, like any faculty, even though we were small, we had personalities. Good, I might add, however.

I might remark, at this time, that Dr. P. Y. Jackson, who could teach many things, but preferred to be known as in the chemistry department. We had the occasion, I think last year or the year before last he retired from his other activities, teaching, and was in Norfolk, and we gave him a little luncheon party. And it was delightful. They had corralled about twenty, twenty- five students that had served with him during the thirties, and they were from many, many backgrounds, dental students, I mean dentists, medical profession, just a good cross-section of everything. We had a good time with P.Y.

Other than that, of course, we, Dr. Gerald Akers, that we all know about, was here at that time. And so we had a good, nice little faculty. We were, of course, the young bucks of the faculty at that time.

Sweeney: Did you believe that athletics were being over-emphasized in the 1930's?

White: Here again, we must remember that students have many ambitions for college outside of academics, and of course athletics has always been one of those. And so they tried to fill that need of the student body. Of course, we operated on a shoestring, and so any and all efforts were made with a minimum of capital outlay.

It was soon known, however, that we couldn't possibly pay our way with football, and eventually football went by the wayside. It was hard to get people out when they once go home, you know, in a commuter-type situation.

Sweeney: There was an article in the paper in the late thirties, surprisingly, discussing the tunnel between Norfolk and Portsmouth, the proposed tunnel, and that caused me to wonder if the early engineering professors here played any role in the development in the plans for the Norfolk

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and Portsmouth Tunnel, or any other major community activities at the time?

White: Any and all of our engineering faculty tried to work very closely with the community, and, of course, as members of the engineering professions here, engineering club and other founding societies, we were always interested in anything of this nature. I don't believe, however, that we played any first-hand role other than an interested citizen of the community, especially one who is interested in things of this type.

Sweeney: Did the engineering professors in those days or even in later days receive many requests from civic groups and businesses for consultative services?

White: Yes, it's a usual thing that the faculty would be requested to tell about things that were going on on the campus and to keep them updated in respect to the academic affairs of the college -- what could be taken, what was offered. And so we did this for the civic groups as well as the high school groups, trying to appraise them of this. And, of course, under like the present day, the faculty was consulted by industry to get their opinions on various things that they were concerned with.

Sweeney: In those early days, could you give some idea as to faculty salaries and they came to be quite low; how did the faculty supplement the salaries to live?

White: Well, I think we have always lived in a state of affairs of not receiving proper salaries, but we, even though the figures look low on paper, which they were, a dollar went much further in those days than it does now. Like today, we still tried to teach summer school if at all possible or engage in other little summer activities to supplement our income. But we managed somehow as we still do today.

Sweeney: In the 1930's and 1940's also, did VPI keep a very tight rein over what was taught at the Division as William and Mary did, according to other people I've talked to?

White: I've already remarked that it was our primary effort to keep our curriculum here in harmony with VIP's, and so that was constantly done, without any undue pressure at all, because we understood what had to be done. We were very jealous, of course, of our standards. And we were

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very anxious to know if our students were transferring to VPI; most of them did. But we also must remember that this is a Navy town, and we had students going to every institution in the country. My brother-in-law, for instance, went to MIT after taking his first year here. There were two boys, twins named Cox, that went to Webb Institute, which is quite a nice architectural school. And so we sent students everywhere, all over the country, after one or two years' preparation, and on each visit to the VPI campus, we could go around to the different department heads and ask them to tell us about our students and how they met their requirements at VPI, and we were delighted that, in general, we were very successful and that our students took many honors up there, even the hardship of transferring to a new campus and starting in at the junior year.

So we maintained excellent standards and didn't have any qualms about our students doing well.

Sweeney: Do you recall any of those early students who became outstanding in their profession?

White: Well, yes, of course, there were many, many, many, and far too many for me to recall at the moment, but in those early days there was Billy McMillan and Jim Reeves; they are both now members of the firm of McGhee and Associates. Milton Ames, who has made quite a reputation for himself in the space program, NASA space program. He was, several years back, he was acclaimed outstanding -- was recognized by the university for his outstanding work in engineering, and many, many more. The woods are full of them.

Sweeney: Were you in any way associated with the training of pilots in the civil aeronautics authority program that was started here in the fall of 1940. There was the ground school aspect of the program, classroom teaching; I wonder if you were involved in that at all?

White: My memory here simply says that, yes, there were some ground courses, and, yes, we did participate in some of these activities. To what degree I just am unable to answer, but there was some effort.

Sweeney: By 1940 was there a growing feeling in the community and also among the faculty that Norfolk needed a four- year college?

White: Yes, I think this feeling was constantly there. Because this is the most populated area of the Commonwealth, and

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we needed a four-year institution -- industry needed it from a standpoint of engineering, but it was needed in every aspect. And so there was always in the background the idea and concept that we should have a four-year institution.

Sweeney: During World War II, did the engineering professors work with the military here in Norfolk?

White: Just before we became active in World War II, we offered many courses that were called defense training courses. Our effort in supplying our allies, of course, was rising sharply, and we needed to train new personnel to take over the jobs. And so this was quite an effort, and we taught classes in the day, evening, and the little meager staff that we had was given the supervision over these different categories of classes and efforts. And so the defense training classes eventually became the war training classes, and we had women; and I brought along with me a little pamphlet which shows some of the classes as, and also some pictures. You will notice by the pictures that we have a group of students, including young ladies, that were taking drafting courses, those that were being trained for aircraft work, and so there was considerable detail in organizing and offering these classes. Some of them were in-service classes, that was to upgrade the people already working, and others to recruit and to train new personnel.

Sweeney: Just before the outbreak of the War, of course, the campus was rocked by the charges brought by President Bryan of the College of William and Mary against Dean Hodges in regard to the altering of students' grades. Personally, how did you react to the problems that Dean Hodges was having?

White: I guess by nature I have never wanted to believe that all accusations were true. I never pursued them to any extent, and therefore I read perhaps what was in the paper, and that's the extent of my knowledge, so I wouldn't like to make firm judgment.

Sweeney: Dean Hodges was succeeded by a Mr. Charles Duke, who was the Bursar of the College of William and Mary. Did it seem that Mr. Duke was taking the school in a different direction from the direction that Dean Hodges was pursuing? Did it indicate any way that the College of William and Mary was reverting to a closer supervision of the Norfolk Division?

White: Well, I think they always had close supervision because obviously all of our financing and everything else was

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through the College of William and Mary. I simply think that Dean Hodges tried to act on his own in many cases. Of course, Mr. Duke was Bursar at the College of William and Mary and thoroughly in tune with the atmosphere and thinking on that campus, and I always presumed that he was carrying out the wishes of that administration.

Sweeney: You've spoken some about the content of the early engineering courses, if you wanted to add anything to that, and also you might describe something of the physical facilities on the campus that you had to work with throughout the thirties and the early forties.

White: Well, we gained a new science building, which of course was quite helpful. It gave us good laboratory facilities for our physics and chemistry and biology. I guess it's called the old science building now. It doesn't have a name. It's where the biology department is now. They occupy the entire building. And, of course, the administration building gave us facilities that were much needed in the way of the library and administrative offices and other things that we needed for that purpose.

We were always able to have sufficient equipment for the teaching of our sciences, and our facilities were pretty good for that time.

Sweeney: I noticed in the clippings file that there were some civic groups, for example the Engineers Club of Norfolk, which took an interest in the teaching of engineering at the college. Did you find these civic groups to be helpful to you in recruiting students or in having a feeling that other people were interested in what you were doing?

White: Yes, all of the engineering groups, including the Engineers Club of Hampton Roads, was always most helpful in any way that they could be, to help us in our efforts here. In particular, all of us were members of these various professions and societies, and the Engineers Club from the very earliest days contributed a little money each year so that we could buy appropriate materials for the engineers and put it into the library. They had maintained a little library of their own for some years, and eventually they turned that over to the college.

I was saying that the Engineers Club of Hampton Roads made it possible for us to have our students participate in any of their meetings, where they could meet the engineering

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people of the community, and this supplanted, of course, the usual student chapters that you find on larger campuses.

They also contributed to scholarships, and just in every way you can think of they have tried to be helpful. Currently, for instance, they prepare a nice award for the outstanding engineer that graduates each year and make quite a little affair of this.

Sweeney: You mentioned the library facilities; many of the departments seemed to have had very meager holdings in those days in the library. Could the engineering students find enough in the library to supplement the material in the textbooks?

White: I think as a whole we didn't have too good facilities, but I think we had enough to get by comfortably.

Sweeney: Did you notice any change in the students that appeared in your classes after World War II? Did you have a lot of veterans?

White: Oh, yes. This was quite a surprise. We anticipated, of course, not knowing what would happen when all these veterans descended upon us. So we didn't know what to expect, but I'm happy to say that this was the best thing that had ever happened to the college campus. They came to us with all kinds of ambitions. Their ambitions were so high in certain instances that if they didn't get an A on a course they'd want to repeat it. We would tell them sometimes, "Let a B suffice." But they really did. They brought a proper spirit, proper leadership, and it was just a delightful experience.

Sweeney: Could you describe the events that led up to the founding of the Technical Institute in 1945? What relationship it had to the department of engineering?

White: I've already mentioned that we had expended quite an effort in behalf of war training classes, and many of these classes were of a vocational nature. So vocational training through the state vocational efforts were made. When the war was over it was plainly obvious that this should continue, and so we had our vocational department or Technical Institute. It was an outgrowth of those previous war efforts. Their classes, however, were not of college level. They were vocationally concept, and therefore we had no direct association with the first Technical Institute.

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Sweeney: During the 1950's there was a great deal of talk in the newspapers about the school becoming a four-year college. At that time did you favor this move and were you in any way concerned about the -- what effect the severing of the tie with 'WI would have on the engineering program here?

White: No, as I've said before, it was always in the background that it should be a four-year institution, and we felt that it was welcomed as soon as it could be arranged.

There was no particular feeling that once we gained four- year status our relationship with 'WI would obviously be severed, but that's just the nature of growth, so there was no feeling in that direction at all.

Sweeney: In the early 1950's, you started cooperative engineering courses which have received a lot of publicity over the years with the military and several business concerns. Could you explain the background and meaning of this program and to what degree of success it had?

White: Our Norfolk Naval Shipyard was very much in need of this type of operation, cooperative engineering program, and so Lewis Webb and the Commander of the Norfolk Naval Shipyard at that time, we all went to VPI to talk with Dean Norris about the idea of establishing a cooperative engineering program. And so it was decided that we should and, actually, we had it here for a year before VPI was able to get on with the program.

It's a wonderful program, but there are certain concepts that must be fulfilled. As you may know, the student goes to school for a period and then goes to industry for a period, then repeats this cycle through his junior academic year, at which time he then returns to the campus to complete his fourth year uninterrupted. To have a good program, it requires that we have good work jobs, and the student must be upgraded as he learns more and is capable of doing more, and so there must be an officer that looks after these needs constantly and kind of fits the student to his desires and his wishes and watches very closely with close supervision to see that industry does its proper share in this type of program. And so I believe it was most successful during the ten years we had it; we had it from 1952 to 1962.

And we had many, many good students because the program is

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tailored for good students, because his academic work is interrupted periodically and he must be able to perform under these conditions. But, all in all, it was most successful, and I might add that 'WI has always maintained this, and the last time I heard, they had some 800 - 1,000 students that were in this type of education, extending even to the master's degree level.

Sweeney: Why was it that Old Dominion dropped it when 1962 came?

White: Because it was at that time that we had a four-year college, and we were going into a four-year engineering program of our own.

Sweeney: Then you didn't feel it would be worthwhile to pursue it with a four-year program?

White: The co-op program is expensive to operate. You have groups that are coming and going all the time, and obviously you have to have certain classes available to them when they come in. They must be able to be in step with our curriculum. And so it is demanding in terms of classes and in terms of the coordinator. And so it cost a great deal of money, and unless you have sufficient enrollment, it cannot possibly pay its way.

Sweeney: In the early years it seems that Lewis Webb taught courses that related to engineering as well, and then of course he went on to be an administrator and serve for many years. Could you give your impression of him both as a teacher and as an administrator?

White: I've already commented that Lewis and I went to VPI together. We came here together. And of course, in the early years, we did much the same things. We taught, and of course we loved the profession. Lewis turned out to be an excellent administrator. He believed in what we were trying to do here, and he gave his entire life to that. He was well appreciated and liked by the community -- their efforts in honoring him have certainly demonstrated that -- and without Lewis Webb, I don't think we would have ever accomplished the things that we have because in those days you didn't have much to do anything with, and sometimes you did have to take the bull by the horns. And he wasn't afraid of wrestling the bull at any time. I don't mean "bull" here in any slang interpretation.

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Sweeney: When you were the head of the engineering department, did you have any difficulties attracting qualified faculty members to the school?

White: No, I don't think we ever -- we were always able to get very good faculty. They all proved to be interested in what they were doing and gave their full effort.

Sweeney: Did you find an upsurge in interest in engineering courses after the Soviet Union launched its Sputnik satellite in 1957?

White: Oh, I think when President Kennedy announced that we were going to the moon in ten years that that really joyed everybody up a little bit. I don't recall in particular that our enrollment jumped, decreased, or what have you, but I'm sure it lent fire to many a high school student.

Sweeney: You were able to grant the baccalaureate degree in engineering starting in the period that Old Dominion College came into existence, as I understand, if I'm correct. Another point I want to raise was whether the school of engineering aided in planning the campus buildings or was this done completely by an outside firm?

White: In the early days, when we didn't employ the campus architect or engineer to pursue these things, obviously the talents of our engineering faculty were used. Mainly Mr. Beck lent his talents to these things over the years. But, as you now know, we have an engineer who is hired for this sole purpose. It's customary, of course, that when any given school or department builds a building that they cooperate and work with the chosen architect, which we did in the case of building our engineering building.

Sweeney: Do you recall any special recollections from your own family or neighbors about conditions on the campus during the time several of the public schools were closed in Norfolk in the fall of 1958 and early 1959?

White: I think the faculty was upset like anyone in the community was over this affair, but, like everyone else, they faced the music and did the best they could. They lent their talents in many cases to the teaching of outside classes and this type of thing.

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Sweeney: Was there considerable opposition from VPI and also the University of Virginia, the other state schools with engineering programs, to the establishment of a four-year engineering program at Norfolk?

White: Well, I think here we have basically two -- we had at that time two engineering schools in the state --state-supported engineering schools. The University of Virginia and VPI. I think they were a little jealous of the fact that if another engineering school was established that it would mean that the money of the state would be divided three ways instead of two ways. And so there was a natural feeling, I presume, that they would be just as happy if we didn't have a third school.

Sweeney: The State Board of Education set up a committee of engineering Deans - the Dean from 'WI and the Dean from the University of Virginia along with a man from Michigan State, and President Webb also served on that committee in June 1961. Did you get the impression that that committee report really changed things or really led to the establishment of a four-year engineering program here?

White: Yes, considerable preparation went into that meeting, I think from the people of Norfolk, industry, the Navy people, just a complete cross-section of our community went to bat to say why we should have and that there should be a school of engineering. And I believe also, if the thought occurs in answer to this question, since we didn't have a dean at that time, Dean Lampe was also brought in -- or maybe that was at a second meeting?

Sweeney: Probably that was a little bit later....

White: A little bit later than.

Sweeney: Dean Lampe served on that committee. He was the other member from North Carolina State at that time.

White: Yes. That's correct. I didn't know whether it was at this time or later time, but, anyway, at an appropriate time. Dean Lampe, of course, had been Dean at NC State for some seventeen years, and had worked in an urban atmosphere, and therefore that was very close to what we would be doing; and he, of course, was well established, well known in the educational engineering circles of the country. And so he did serve either at this time or later.

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Sweeney: When he became the dean, was there any feeling in the engineering department, as there often is in the various departments, that the dean should have come from within the department and that the administration should not have gone outside to hire someone else?

White: No, I don't think this existed at all. It had to have been recognized that our efforts had been at a junior college level, two years, and that we had not been associated with critical junior and senior years, or the correct curriculums, and we were not as well versed in these things as someone of Dean Lampe's caliber. So there was no feeling, and it was appropriate to go ahead and obtain the services of such a person as Dean Lampe.

Sweeney: He served for, I believe, four years in that position --how successfully, do you think?

White: Well, I've already remarked that Dean Lampe was known to everyone in the country when he came to engineering. And, of course, the timetable was such that he retired at NC State just at the time when we needed a new dean. And it seemed most appropriate to everyone concerned, and it turned out that way, that he should come and organize our first efforts and to graduate our first class. That is what he declared to do. So, after graduating our first engineer, he retired for the second time.

Incidentally, I might add that on retirement the second time, he still acts as a consultant for many, many things of this nature.

Sweeney: There was growing cooperation between the engineering department here, the School of Engineering and the NASA facility at Langley. Do you recall how that got started and how it has developed through the years?

White: With the growth of NASA, of course, over on the peninsula, it was incumbent on the state to provide an academic atmosphere for the personnel there because that's one of the things NASA believed in. This first effort was made through the cooperation of the University of Virginia and VPI. But they, geographically, are located some distance away, and by this time we had a very nice faculty --outstanding young faculty -- and so efforts were made, and

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it was appropriate that, if we could, we would offer the graduate work at NASA facilities. So it came about that that was made a part of our campus, and therefore we had lent our facilities to them.

Sweeney: Could you tell us a little more about NASA?

White: I forget at the moment where I stopped. I think I was expressing the fact that it was found desirable to consolidate most of the work at NASA under the direction of our School of Engineering. And so currently that is the program where we offer all the graduate programs at NASA for both master's and doctoral (inaudible).

Sweeney: From here, as well, can a person get a master's and doctoral here on this campus?

White: Yes. The programs are offered on our campus here in Norfolk as well as the campus over on the peninsula. And the courses are so arranged that if a person has to have a certain course, that transportation is provided; and he can take it on the other side if that's the only time he can get it at that moment.

Sweeney: Now, the Technical Institute seems to have become a part of the School of Engineering at the time the School of Engineering was established. Is this true, and how well did it function as far as part of the School of Engineering?

White: As I said in the beginning, the Technical Institute was, although it was approved by ECPD, the Engineers' Council for Professional Development, as a technical institute. But there's. had been quite an effort across the country to upgrade the technical institute to a college level and to really offer a B.S. degree program for engineering technology, as we now describe it. And so we were one of the early schools to take advantage of this thinking and to establish, in the School of Engineering, two BS degree programs, one for professional engineering and one for engineering technology, which meant, of course, in the case of the technology program, it was upgraded to college level, and it upgraded the technician to the point that he could operate more efficiently with the engineer and in the professional world. And, I might add that we have done very well with this.

Sweeney: How did the graduate program come to be established? Was there any hesitancy to do this, or a great eagerness on your part and the faculty's part to start offering a master's degree?

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White: Just as soon as our four-year program, BS degree program in engineering, was developed, there was an immediate need, too, for programs and courses at the graduate level. And, of course, this was started as soon as we could get permission from the State Council on Higher Education. And so, immediately we embarked on this type, and as soon as we got the master's program well formed and going, due to the NASA association there was a need and a desire to establish a doctoral program, which we gained permission to do, and so we had two programs.

Sweeney: Did you teach in the graduate program?

White: No, at this time I. my duties were almost a hundred percent administrative. So I have never taught at the graduate level.

Sweeney: Has this been true for about the last ten years since the School of Engineering was established? Did you stop teaching courses, or to what extent?

White: No, everyone connected with our School of Engineering has always tried to teach a course regardless of what other duties we have. And so, of course, in the very early years of our four-year program, I taught various courses in electricity that we needed at the time because of limited personnel. And in later years, outside of my administrative duties, I taught computer work. So my efforts in the recent past have been to teach engineers computer programming and how to work with the computer.

Sweeney: Why was it that the first areas chosen for graduate degree programs were civil, electrical and thermal engineering, and not any other field?

White: The most populated areas of engineering are the civil, electrical, and usually called the mechanical. We were searching for a name that would encompass more than just mechanical, and so we chose the name "thermal" at that time, and it embraced courses in aeronautics, dynamics and other concepts, even nuclear. But now we have changed back -- left the word "thermal" now -- we now have "mechanical."

But they are the -- such things as chemical engineering, for instance, requires a lot of dollars and laboratory equipment and special equipment, and so we just knew we'd never get around, and I don't thing the state would entertain the idea of having three places teaching chemical engineering.

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Sweeney: The department or the school was constantly being reorganized in the recent past into what are called faculty groups, and now we have engineering mechanics, civil engineering, thermal engineering, administrative, experimental, electrical, material science and engineering analysis. What was the basis for the establishment of all these groups, and do you think perhaps there are too many groups in the school?

White: Well, as far as our degree offerings are concerned, we offer a BS degree in civil, electrical, and now what we call mechanical engineering. The other, I think, is simply activity groups which the training allows faculty, affords them to get together in their mutual interest. So we have administrative engineering, of course, has gone by the wayside now. In other words, we at one time did have a BS degree in administrative engineering, but the enrollment was not sufficient to maintain it. So we dropped that.

Material science, I don't think, is a group at all. It's a very important subject to our whole curriculum, and we have an excellent faculty member -- (inaudible) is just one, so I don't think that's a group necessarily. Of course, the engineering analysis is a very important part of teaching affairs for both our graduate and undergraduate programs -- mathematics, primarily.

Sweeney: Did you drop aeronautical engineering or change the name of it as a field of concentration?

White: We've never had the name "aeronautical" associated with any of ours, although I said a few minutes ago that in our program in mechanical engineering that we offer some aerodynamics, but not a program or degree in that. That, too -- the name has now gone to "aerospace" rather than "aeronautical."

Sweeney: In many of the articles in the paper in the mid- and late- sixties, the ODU program in engineering was said to differ from traditional engineering programs. Dean Rotty constantly was talking about the need for producing engineers who are able to tackle a variety of situations and not be trained just mechanically to handle one area. In the sense that it differs from traditional engineering programs, what does this mean? Does it mean that more humanities are offered, or what?

White: No, what Dean Rotty had in mind, I'm sure, was the fact that our engineers, regardless of what their specialty may

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turn out to be civil, electrical, or mechanical, is going to receive good fundamental information in regards to across-the-board types of subjects that embrace all of our engineering. What I'm saying, in effect, is all of our engineers are going to take two courses and one laboratory course in electrical and electronic concepts regardless of whether they're going to be electrical engineers or not. Likewise, all of our engineers are going to get a course in thermodynamics along with a necessary laboratory course. All this means is that every engineer we graduate has a good step in the door to talk and work with other engineers because he has a little insight into their main topic of discussion. And so we have what is described as a core curriculum, up through the first five semesters, and it is at that point that the engineer will pursue those courses that are fitted to his particular requirements, whether it be civil, electrical, or mechanical. This is a little variance from the old approach to engineering which was highly departmentalized, where at a very early stage you began to take a lot, many very various courses in civil, electrical, or mechanical, what have you. This type of modern education is. has been well received by industry. They're fascinated by it; they like it and they tell us so. And so our engineers have done well wherever they go. We've sent them to all kinds of graduate schools and industry writes back and tells us what a good job our students are doing, and they come back for more engineers, which makes us very happy. And so this is what is meant by a different type of engineering program.

Sweeney: In 1970, approximately 1970-71, the Engineers' Council for Professional Development accredited the engineering program here. Could you tell me what was the significance of this accreditation?

White: The School of Engineering is not worth anything unless it has the approval and sanction of the founding foundation, which is called ECPD, or the Engineers' Council for Professional Development. This is our own accrediting agency, and therefore as soon as you are eligible to apply for accreditation, you do. And so we started in 1962, we graduated our first engineer in 1966, and we immediately invited ECPD to give us an inspection for accreditation. We're happy to say that we were accredited. And they periodically come back and re-examine you, and this examination is into every structure and crevice and concept that you can think of.

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Sweeney: In 1966, with the retirement of Dean Lampe, Dean Rotty came from Tulane University to head the School of Engineering. What kind of changes and what impact did his coming have?

White: Well, I think Dean Rotty came fully in sympathy with the kind of engineering program we were offering or he wouldn't have come; he said that many times. And so I think he simply addressed himself to continuing the thoughts and ideas and concepts that were originally established along with the consolidations and things of that nature. So we felt very pleased that we could get someone of Dean Rotty's background and ability.

Sweeney: The engineering school has developed perhaps the fastest of any of the schools in the ten years from 1962 to 1972, when the school began the doctoral program. Do you think there was some reason for this -- outstanding administration or some internal thing within the school of engineering which caused it to have such an outstanding record of success?

White: Well, we addressed this casually through our conversation. Primarily, I think that when you hire a Ph.D. to come and teach for you, he wants to do the things he's been trained to do. And I've already said that the community was anxious and waiting for a master's degree program, and our local community and, of course, NASA, was knocking ~t the door; the state and everybody else wanted to appease their appetite. And so everything was in one-two-three order, if I can put it that way. But we were able to entice the faculty because we had graduate programs and we could put them to work doing the things they wanted to do. And that's what a Ph.D. wants.

Sweeney: In the last few years have you noticed any change in the students; for example, have women begun to major in engineering?

White: This is nothing new. I recall that when I went to 'WI that I had a young lady that graduated with my class in civil engineering. So the concept is not new, and even during our early years we would have young ladies that would go to school to us for two years and then transfer to VPI. And almost without exception, when you find a young lady who has this interest she does very well. And we had some excellent young ladies. And, of course, that is true today. Just several years ago, I recall, we had two young ladies that graduated at the same time, and both of them took all the honors we had to offer in the school:

"Outstanding Engineer" and so forth. We have a little more numbers; we graduated one this year, a young lady. We don't have too many, but usually they turn out very well.

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Sweeney: Do you have any comment on the change in atmosphere or any change in emphasis that were brought about by the coming of President James L. Bugg in the late 1960's?

White: I think President Bugg has tried to help us fulfill our goal, and he has led us in that direction.

Sweeney: For the last two questions, first of all, in respect to your life in the community, have you over the years gotten involved with civic affairs and developed any interests outside the field of engineering?

White: Oh, like any good citizen I'm a member of a number of city clubs all my life, and professional clubs, and I might add here that I belong to a Citoba (?) Club; that's a coined word meaning service to mankind is what it signifies. And Citoba has always tried to help our students here at the university through scholarships, and this was started in 1955. We have offered four scholarships each year for those many years. This is not restricted to engineering, however, primarily need and academic promise and so forth. We're very proud of that arrangement, and of course there are many other civic clubs, organizations that lend support to our university, and we are very proud of them.

I've been a member of the sailing groups here, the Norfolk Yacht and Country Club, all kinds of stop-gap efforts and committees and one thing or another.

Sweeney: Looking back over the years, what do you feel has been the greatest reward you have obtained from a career in teaching? Do you have a sense of fulfillment from it?

White: I think I'm not totally different from most people in this profession. I gain a great deal of satisfaction in the helping of young people, molding their careers, helping them gain a good foothold in this world. And it's most satisfying to have a student come back then or fifteen years after he graduates and, say, pass the time of day with you and say, "Professor White, you know you said so and so, and so and so one time and that always meant

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a lot to me. You never know sometimes what you say and who it's going to hit or why. But it keeps you young and, of course, in my later years here, I've done a lot of advising and counseling of students as they come in new and as they continue through the college. All of that, too, is most satisfying. No, if I had to do it over again I'd be happy, even with the salary, because it is a wonderful profession.

Sweeney: Thank you very much, Dean White, for a very informative interview.

END