Today I am happy to be interviewing Mrs. Thomas Lawrence Scott. Tommy Scott was the first athletic director and football coach of the Norfolk Division of the College of William and Mary.

Q: And the first question that I wanted to ask you, Mrs. Scott, was how you met your future husband, and whether you could provide some information on his background and his education?

Mrs. Scott: I met Tommy at the old Hague Club which was down on Olney Road and it was after a game late one night in January of 1937. Friends of mine had been telling me I should meet this young man in Norfolk and we went together from January until April and then we were married for twenty-six years.

Q: {inaudible}

Mrs. Scott: I have looked back something on Tommy's background. He came to Norfolk in the grammar school period. I'd say he was about nine or ten years old. And, of course, he went to the grammar schools in the city of Norfolk. He also went to Maury High School for four years starting in 1922 through '26. He was the class of '26 from Maury High School. Then four years at VMI and he was in the class of 1930. And, then of course ten years at William and Mary Norfolk Division.

Q: {inaudible}

Mrs. Scott: When Tommy was going to Maury High School he did play basketball, ba-- football with some very well known local boys. From Maury High School he went to VMI and was on the basketball, football, and baseball teams. He was manager of the orchestra. I did write down a few little things of his VMI record. He was invited to play in the first North-South game in Atlanta, which was the first game for crippled children, similar to our Shriner Bowl Game that we have in Norfolk now. At that time their coaches were General Bob Mayland, tennis coach, and Gus Tibel who was coach at Virginia, and had charge of the Southern team. Some of the good boys that we might remember played with Tommy at that time was Lee Williams of William -- Washington-Lee, Bobby Dodd, Buddy Hackman, Gene Mclvor of Tennessee, Shipwreck Kelly of Kentucky, Hawkins and Lloyd Chadwick from VMI. And needless to say the South won the first North-South game. But that – In talking to people around Norfolk, they all seem to remember the first North-South game and our local boys who played on the team for the South team.

During his years at VMI, Tommy was selected as (begin whisper) What’s this one here? I forget the names they call them. (end whisper) Tommy was placed on the all-Virginia eleven along with boys like Flippin of the University of Virginia, Sanford, Bailey, Hotchkiss - boys that we remembered played football well during the 1926, 27s, and 29s. Tommy was also selected in 1950 for VMI's all-star team or all time left end of football teams. (begin whisper) And this is another thing he did at VMI. Well let’s see how we would say that. Fifty, fifty that was about four years ago. What is it now? (end whisper) In the early 70s we were invited to VMI because Tommy was given the honor to be on the VMI Sports Hall of Fame.

Q: The second question that I wanted to ask you is something about the challenge that Tommy faced in coaching and directing the entire athletic program himself at the Norfolk Division of the College of William and Mary. Did he ever

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talk about this as being a great challenge?

Mrs. Scott: Well, I think when boys graduated from college back in 1930 jobs were hard to get. He was very happy to be selected as Athletic Director for the College of William and Mary. Himself having played football, basketball, and sports for Maury High School and VMI, he probably enjoyed continuing coaching. As far as doing three sports, he was used to doing three sports, so there was nothing new to him to do all three or more.

Q: Would you say that college coaching had been a long time ambition of Mr. Scott?

Mrs. Scott: I'd say so in a way. That's what he'd been doing all of his life. I don't know that his ambition was to coach at William and Mary because that was real new and just coming up, but I think he was happy to be at home and be a part of a new college starting in the city of Norfolk. He could live at home and be around his friends.

And I think it was -- I don't know that he meant to be a coach while he was going to VMI, I don't think he had that in mind, but it just happened.

Q: During your early years did Mr. Scott find it difficult to attract enough boys to fill his teams in football and basketball? Did this question bother him, whether enough boys would turn out at the Division?

Mrs. Scott: That's a little difficult to answer because I think it's a yes and no. It was always a concern to see if he would have enough boys to fill a team. However it worked out that he did have enough boys to put on a team and several years he had more than enough. At one time it seems as though he had as many as five boys for each position on his football teams. But that's part of being a coach, is trying to get the boys to carry on the program that you have for them.

Q: What about school spirit? Did the students at the Division support the teams?

Mrs. Scott: I think the teams were supported when the school opened up. The idea was that we would have a Norfolk College and to us a Norfolk College was not only academic but physical. We had different clubs to school spirit. One of them was the Monogram Club, which was an athletic club at the college. The teachers had spirit for our academic work as well as athletic programs. I'd say we had real nice school spirit in Norfolk.

Q: Did it die down after several years had passed by the late '30s?

Mrs. Scott: Well, the late thirties are a little long for me to be remembering all of these things, but it seemed like we had nice games. We had played the freshmen schools – freshmen of the big colleges. It was a little difficult getting games for a two-year college because they were a little better than high schools and they weren’t quite as good as some of the larger colleges, so we had to get the games where we could. We did have nice attendances in the new gymnasium and I think for the number of students, that there was quite a lot of school spirit in the – at the Division.

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Q: Did the community of Norfolk also share in this interest?

Mrs. Scott: It seems to me that we felt they did. We were never unhappy with anything that was going on at William and Mary. And we really didn't like to call it Division; we liked to call it William and Mary because we were proud of being a part of the main school in Williamsburg. But I would say that there was right much interest.

Q: To what extent was Mr. Scott interested in women's athletics?

Mrs. Scott: Very much so. During the years that Tommy was there and in all of his programs, he would in some way have programs for the girls. The only instructor I remember was Margaret Holman and she was the athletic women's director. They had swimming and volleyball, tennis, basketball, and he was very interested in women taking part in the athletic program.

Q: Do you recall anything about the athletic facilities before – you weren’t here before Foreman Field was built? Well can you recall anything about the facilities that were used? One of the fields was called Scott Field after Mr. Scott?

Mrs. Scott: Well, I really don't know anything about what they did, Other than what I've heard the boys say. The boys when he would try to get his fill for football and baseball, they just used an open field and everybody went to a game and they stood around in the open field. They had no facilities for bleachers or chairs. It was just -- I have heard that when the boys came out for the first baseball team, as they came in to sign up Tommy gave them all a shovel and they had to go make their own diamonds. And also, their track team they had to fix their own track. Now this is all hearsay in talking to people who did go to the college at that time but that was one of the things that they were handed a shovel and they fixed their own diamond for their baseball, and of course anything they needed for their football field. The Scott Field question. I don’t know we had anything called Scott’s Field, but I think that in our minds, anywhere Tommy's boys were on the field, it was Scott's boys, Scott's men or Scott's field, whether it was on a street in Larchmont in the area where our stadium is today. If Tommy was there and Tommy's boys were there, it was Scott's field.

Q: Could you recollect for me the story that you told me before about the car, your car that was used by the teams and then how the school purchased a station wagon?

Mrs. Scott: When we were first married, Tommy had an old Studebaker and we had to take the boys to the different games in the Studebaker. It had a rumble seat. He'd put three or four in the front seat, three or four in the rumble seat. The other cars were either belonged to the boys who -- whose players. And over the years the old Studebaker fell to pieces so the college did buy a station wagon to move the boys from the different towns to be able to play their games.

Q: Now I would like to ask you about Mr. Scott's influence on his players. He seems to have had a very great rapport with his players. I wondered

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what was the secret to his closeness to his players and was he a strict disciplinarian?

Mrs. Scott: I think Tommy was very, very close to the players. He liked boys. He liked young boys. He liked to help them. And by having that feeling toward them, they knew that toward them, they knew that Tommy meant well for them. Anything he asked them to do, he felt they could do. But he was a strict disciplinarian. I think they understood that if they were going to play for Tommy and he told to do something, they had to do it – or to the best of their advantage.

Q: You partially answered this question already. Did Mr. Scott find it difficult to develop a desirable schedule of college level opponents in football and basketball?

Mrs. Scott: We did talk about that. And -- However in living with Tommy this never came up. I think that was part of Tommy's job, to do the best he could as far as arranging games and that's what he did. If it was difficult, it was just one of those things that had to be done, but he was in the middle of high schools and the colleges like we said a minute ago. He played the apprentice schools, he played the naval bases, and there was some two year colleges for him to play. Not that he said anything about it, he just went on and did the best that he could.

Q: Do you recall any incidents that illustrate the closeness of Mr. Scott and his players?

Mrs. Scott: (begin whisper) Well now I don’t know. (end whisper)I guess the attitude of Tommy's players to him was that they respected him. In a way he was sort of a football star to them because they had heard of his games or the way that he played at Maury High School and VMI, so they had a lot of respect of his ability to do the things that maybe they wanted to do, And even now which is forty- five years later, at different social gatherings someone will come up and want to talk about Tommy, and when they went to school. So they remember thirty and forty years ago of their days at school and what maybe the good times they had along with the bad times. They'll tell me about not having enough shoulder pads. If you were going to play in a game you had to let this boy have the pads because you didn't have but one set for two or three boys. Or maybe the trip to Florida. Everybody talks about the trip to Florida, but they did have a good time. Just this last New Year's in 1975, I was talking to a man who I didn't know but he came up and said that he went on the trip to Florida with Tommy and what a wonderful time they had. They did lose the game but they made a very, very good showing and he still remembers the good times and the bad times.

[Several minutes of the tape were apparently erased at this point, and when it began again Mrs. Scott was speaking of Mr. Edgar Timmerman.]

Mrs. Scott: -- during the 25th Anniversary. Tommy was very close to Mr. Timmerman. He was a young man too, at the same time Tommy was a young man. And Dean Hodges of course was with us longer and I did know him very well. Tommy was very close to him and they did like one another. Well he treated Tommy almost like a son. Dr. Hodges is a godfather of our daughter, Sugie Scott Harrison. And Mr. Hodges would – well they talked of

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things that would make our college grow. He was there when it was planning the stadium that was coming up. Planting the trees, making the college beautiful. Keeping the Williamsburg atmosphere. People in Virginia are very proud of Williamsburg and very proud of the College of William and Mary. And, of course, that spirit was in our hearts when we worked for William and Mary, Norfolk Division. And, of course, Dean Hodges coming from Williamsburg, I think he was Dean of Men, and head of the extension program from William and Mary. He and Tommy tried to keep the same spirit in the City of Norfolk that we have in the spirit for Williams-- William and Mary at Williamsburg.

Q: I would like to ask you a question, Mrs. Scott, about the trip in the Spring of 1933 that the football team took to Miami Florida. Well actually it was in the Fall Of 1932 and there was continued talk about it down into the spring of 1933. Do you have any recollections of Mr. Scott reminiscing about this trip to Florida?

Mrs. Scott: Not too much of what Tommy might have said about the trip to Florida. Over the years people have said something about the trip to Florida when William and Mary went to play Miami and there seems to be a consensus of opinion that this was probably the first Orange Bowl game. There's also a little talk saying that maybe Miami thought they were going to play William and Mary from Williamsburg. Maybe there was some confusion about who they were going to play, but they did make a nice showing. They didn't win, but I think they did credit to their college by going to the Orange Bowl game and I'm almost su – And I’m sure the boys had a wonderful time.

Q: You’ve told me about the summer camp that Mr. Scott conducted apparently over quite a period of years in connection with the college but it was for boys in the community I understand. Could you elaborate on this?

Mrs. Scott: Before I met Tommy, he started a camp at Virginia Beach. At that time he had the old Terrace Beach Club and the boys stayed on. And it was just for boys. In the daytime they probably had a few girls, but he used the facilities at the Cavalier Hotel for the swimming pool. He used Mrs. Thrave's riding stable for horseback riding.

So for two or three years he did have a camp at Virginia Beach in the summer. Then when we had the new stadium the new swimming pool and the gymnasium at the college, they allowed him to use the facilities at William and Mary for a summer camp. At that time he contacted Miss Faraby who had a girls school in Norfolk and she was in charge of the girls. Tommy hired Louis Chadwick who was a former VMI college mate to help with him the boys and then he would use his own boys, like Johnny Brown, Donald Griffin - boys who played on his teams in the winter, to help with the different programs during the day at the summer camp.

There was a little restaurant on -- in front of Gray's Pharmacy. They would march them all over for their milk and their sandwich, then they would bring them all back to the college. They had a rest period in the afternoon with little cots. And then they took the children home about five o'clock.

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But it was a real, real nice program for young people. I think they started about sixteen years old went to thirteen or fourteen. He had this at least three years at the college. I would say he had maybe a hundred to a hundred and twenty-five students for his summer camp at William and Mary. His swimming program was very successful. He had Johnny Jones who also gave the Red Cross – Johnny Jones was one of our – in fact – Johnny almost was invited to the Olympic teams in swimming but he hurt his neck so for some reason he did not get to go. But he was an excellent instructor and was able to give the Red Cross certificates in swimming. They had archery for boys and girls. Tennis, track and then he had teachers for academic help for the children who needed extra school (whisper begins) What do you call that? Tutoring? (Whisper ends) extra tutoring for, for their academic work. It was really a very, very nice program.

Q: Did Mr. Scott ever consider leaving the Division to coach at a larger four-year institution where his responsibilities might not have been so diverse and might have been more financially rewarding?

Mrs. Scott: I really don't believe so. Somewhere in my mind there might have been some talk of him being invited to another school, now I really can't remember. But I don't know that Tommy ever considered leaving the college, until such time as in the late thirty-nines and forties when his father might have needed him. But to go to another college, no I don't think he had anything in mind, of leaving the Division.

Q: Did you attend the dedication of the new gymnasium in the building now referred to as the Old Administration Building? What were Mr. Scott's reactions to the new gym?

Mrs. Scott: Well, I wasn't here for the dedication of the new gym. However, Tommy was very, very proud of the new building. I think they liked every brick in the building, every strip of wood in the floors, and Tommy had an office. This was about the first time that Tommy ever had a small office and it was under the stairway just before you went into the new gymnasium. And it really was, to us, fabulous like walking into the new gym that we have now. To walk into the gymnasium at ODU today just gives you a feeling of things are being done, things are going forward and you're real proud to have even been a part of what we have at ODU today.

Q: I guess then you were not here at the dedication of Foreman Field in 1936. Would you have any recollections of attending football games at Foreman Field?

Mrs. Scott: Yes, we did go to the football games and we had fairly nice attendance. At that time in the 38s, 39s, we were also having big teams into Norfolk, as well as being Athletic Director for William and Mary, Tommy of course had charge of the advertising, the tickets, getting things ready for the big teams to come in. Like our Shrine bowl games, maybe, when the big teams came in like Duke and the University of Virginia, or even our high school games, Maury and Granby was one of the big games at the stadium and the high schools used this stadium.

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The stadium wasn't built just for William and Mary. The stadium was built by the schoo— by William and Mary, the City of Norfolk, and the State of Virginia. It was made to be a place where Norfolk citizens could enjoy part of our college, and that the -- we could bring sports into the city where we had no facilities until this time. So we went to the big games as well as to Tommy's games.

Q: In the later years of the 1930's was Mr. Scott relieved of any of his demanding coaching responsibilities?

Mrs. Scott: Well, I think Tommy was still the head coach, but he did have some assistance as time went on. Mr. Scrab Chandler, we call him "Scrab", came down from Williamsburg and he took over some of the work, particularly the swimming department. There was a young man named Sternweese -- Sternweese who helped Tommy with basketball and football because at that time Tommy did have right much to do with the high school games and the big games that were booked into the stadium. So he did have some assistance in his coaching, I would say, as he went along. On account of his time was taken up in helping to arrange and get the big games going in the stadium.

Q: Did Mr. Scott’s many assignments at the college interfere with his home life?

Mrs. Scott: No, our home life was part of the college, so we lived across the street. We lived one block from the college. We lived in Dr. Williams' house who was the French instructor at one time; we lived in the Larchmont Apartments, so we were probably on the campus. And our home life was with what went on with the college. So I would say no.

Q: In early 1940 Mr. Scott was quoted as saying that he thought it was best to drop baseball as an intercollegiate sport of the Division, and substitute an intramural softball program. Why did he reach this conclusion?

Mrs. Scott: I really can't remember. I do know that they did drop baseball. Maybe they didn't have enough money to outfit their teams then and to carry the program, as it should have been done. I do know that I've read where they had to think of other things to do for sports like they probably went into track more than they did the baseball, football, and basketball. They probably didn't have the money, as I've read in different articles that come from the college in the newspapers. At that time we just didn't have too much money available for running maybe the Athletic Department. That’s the only reason that I would know.

Q: Baseball was dropped temporarily as you mentioned, but the intramural softball program failed when only three students appeared. Do you recall Mr. Scott saying anything about the students' lack of interest in intramural softball?

Mrs. Scott: No. I don't recall that.

Q: In the 1940 football season, the last one at the Division was most

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disheartening as the players lost all six games by large scores. What were the principal problems facing Mr. Scott during that last season?

Mrs. Scott: I can't remember too much about the 1940 football season, however I don't recall the boys or Tommy being disheartened about losing games. They had lost games before. I think as long as the boys made a good showing, they were happy. They had for years played well under adverse conditions, and I think over the years their scores, and looking here I can see that they had won sixty-two games, lost nineteen, and tied four. That was a good average for a two-year college. So I can't say that they were real disheartened, because I think the boys would have made a good showing.

Q: On the 22nd of November 1940, Mr. Scott submitted his resignation from the staff of the Norfolk Division. What considerations prompted this decision? Did lack of student support or the poor performance of the team have anything to do with it?

Mrs. Scott: No. Tommy's father needed help in his business. He approached Tommy that if he would come in with him, he would make arrangements that the business would be left to him. He would make more money. He might have to work a little harder, so we talked it over and decided that Tommy should go into business with his father, which he did, and stayed with him until his death in 1962. And of course I went to work with them as I had worked in my previous years with commercial credits so I knew something about office work. And we both went into business with his father. And as of today, why Tommy's daughter's here and myself and we're still running the business that was started in 1915.

Q: Did Mr. Scott maintain an interest in the Division's athletic program?

Mrs. Scott: Yes, Tommy was always interested in William and Mary's athletic program. In reading the old articles that had been written about him, they say if it was real cold, nobody came, but Tommy was there. That's in one of the papers; I think maybe Bill Cox I had read it not long ago. But Tommy did go back to the college and he was interested in the sports at William and Mary.

Q: One thing I hadn't mentioned before, but I noticed it in an article he had some connection with a professional team named the Norfolk Shamrocks after he left the school. Do you remember anything about this?

Mrs. Scott: Vaguely, the Shamrocks and a Mister -- I don't recall too much about that, but he was interested in the Shamrocks. Not that he really coached them, but he did assist them. We might say it that way. He was interested in it, and he helped with the advertising. I know he helped with the ticket sales. Possibly in arranging how you go about scheduling games and printing of advertising, the tickets, because he had done that work at William and Mary in the stadium work. So I think he was maybe more in the business part of it than the coaching of the Shamrocks. But he was in some way interested in them.

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Q: As a final question, was Mr. Scott surprised when the college gave up football in 1941? It had already made a schedule for the coming season; he had left the school. I wonder if he had any reaction to their dropping football so suddenly?

Mrs. Scott: That I don't know. I just have no idea. I would say maybe that I didn't pay too much attention to just what was going on at just that time because we were both working at the store and possibly Tommy was interested and maybe he had connections with them, or knew what was going on, but I really cannot recall anything about that.

Q: Thank you very much, Mrs. Scott. I was wondering as a final thought if Mr. Scott continued his involvement with boys perhaps in any recreational programs after he left the college?

Mrs. Scott: Yes, he did. He was asked by the city of Norfolk would he be on the committee – serve on the committee for recreation and landscaping, which in some way would help the young men of Norfolk. Just what they did, I don't know, but he did work with the city council, and he did meet with them on several occasions. I do know that he had found out what they were doing in other cities to keep the young boys off the street. I don't know that our Boys Club had started then, but he was interested in things that our Boys Club was doing. And he did work for the city for I don’t recall how many years and he was interested in programs for boys in the parks in the city of Norfolk.

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