| Dr. Tonelson is Assistant to the President
for School and Community Relations at Old Dominion University.
Q: Dr. Tonelson, could you tell me about your background prior to
1930. That is, where you were born, your family background, and your early
education?
Tonelson: I was born in New York City, believe it or not. The family
moved to Norfolk when I was four years old. We lived on the East Side
of town. That is, just off Church Street at the time, on a street that
is still there called Wood Street. I went to Henry Clay Elementary School
and then I believe when I was in the fourth grade, moved to the west
part of town on 14th Street. I continued my schooling at John Marshall
School. I completed my elementary schooling there, then went on to Blair
Junior High School and then to Maury High School and was graduated in
1929. Then I went from Maury to William and Mary the second semester
of 1929-30. This would have been in February 1930. I went there as a
freshman and was there until June of that year.
Q: Why did you choose to enter the first class of the Norfolk Division
in the fall of 1930?
Tonelson: As already stated, I was at William and Mary for the half
a year, but that summer my father was seriously hurt in an accident
which seriously depleted what little funds we had. You remember this
was the time of the Great Depression. Fortunately for me, the Norfolk
Division of the College of William and Mary was opened in September
1930 and I immediately took the opportunity to enroll as a student.
Q: Could you tell me about your first registration for classes at
the new junior college?
Tonelson: Actually, it wasn't known as a junior college. It was
the Norfolk Division and it was set up to provide two years of education
for students who were graduating from the high schools in the area.
As I remember, I took a streetcar from where I lived, (I imagine the
fare was five cents), came out here, saw a lady in an office and told
her I wished to register for the fall term. At that time she made a
remark that I was the first student to have contacted her about registration.
Since then I understand there were two other students that enrolled
with Principal Haley who is at Blair Junior High School, who was also
instrumental in forming the Norfolk Division. So, this was my first
registration that was held in what was the Old Academic Building.
[2]
Q: Could you relate your impressions of the first faculty of the college?
Does anyone stand out in your recollection?
Tonelson: At this point I think I would have to name almost every
member of the faculty who taught in those early years. Certainly there
comes to mind Mr. Edgar Timmerman who was the first Director. My most
vivid picture of Mr. Timmerman was that he always went around with a
pipe in his mouth. In the field of Chemistry, there was Dr. Perry Jackson;
in Biology there was Dr. Jones; Economics there was Dr. Prosser; English,
Dr. Gray; and Language Dr. Williams. I would be amiss if I didn't mention
Dr. Marsh who was the first Economics professor we had, who commuted
from William and Mary.
I might say a number of professors commuted from William and Mary.
Among these, of course as I mentioned, was Dr. Marsh, in addition there
was Dr. Blocker, who taught Philosophy and Psychology. There was a Dr.
Bruce, who taught us American History, and others that stand out in
my mind, Dr. Akers came here I believe in 1931. There was a Miss Burke
who taught Government, Miss Saunders who was in English. Mr. Webb and
Mr. White came to the Division in 1932, when VPI began to offer two
years of an Engineering program. Others who come to mind are a Miss
Childress who taught Math, a Miss Parker who taught Physical Education,
and I would be amiss if I didn't mention Tommy Scott, who took care
of all the men's physical education. He coached just about all sports:
baseball, basketball, football, and took a liking to me. Even though
there wasn't a great discrepancy in our ages, he was almost just like
a father to me, so I do have special memories of Coach Tommy Scott.
Q: Could you tell me about the physical conditions under which the
students and faculty worked and studied?
Tonelson: In what was later called the Old Academic Building, there
were classrooms. The building had been an old elementary school, which
had been turned over to the College of William and Mary. I imagine supplies
and equipment for the most part could probably be termed inadequate.
We had some two hundred students enrolled in the school, but somehow
we learned there was a great deal of emphasis on the educational program
as such. We had little in the way of grounds facilities. I remember
that many times a Physical Education class consisted of running down
to the waterfront along Bolling Avenue and then running back. We probably
had two showers at best for those who were in the gym classes, so it
was not unusual on the hot spring and summer days to have those of us
in the Phys. Ed. class just keep on going and plunge in. I guess this
may have been the beginning of a swimming team, which followed.
[3]
Some of the classes were very large. Our History and English classes
met in a rather large auditorium that was to the rear of the building.
The smaller classes would meet in different rooms. It had a biology
lab, as I remember, and a Chemistry lab. There were few spaces that
the professor used as offices, but the main office was a small area,
and how they managed to keep all the records that they did there, I'll
never understand.
The library facilities were always inadequate. We had few if any books,
and most of the professors who used to commute from Williamsburg would
bring with them at the beginning of a semester, twenty five or thirty
books that would be placed around the classroom.
Q: You've already mentioned Coach Tommy Scott. Do you have any other
special memories of the Coach?
Tonelson: As I say, Tommy Scott was almost like a father to me.
I played basketball and baseball under Tommy. Then later on when I returned
with a degree in Biology from William and Mary, I assisted Coach Scott
in baseball and basketball. There are many stories that I could tell,
but I don't know that this is the time or the occasion.
Q: What are your recollections of the campus social activities in
the early 1930's?
Tonelson: Well, as I remember, the social activities, and all campuses
have to have something of course, consisted of one or two organizations
for the boys, male organizations, which they were invited to join. These
were the Tiga Club and the Imps Club. The girls had three social organizations:
the Alpha, the Tri-K, and the Cotillion. These organizations had a small
number of students. I guess most of the students who were attending
the division were doing their best to complete the one or two years
of work that they had here, in the hopes that they could go on to other
schools and complete their education. However, these social clubs did
spring up. They contained a number of boys and a number of girls and
essentially they conducted dances through the year, teas and the like.
Q: You served as a reporter on the student newspaper, The High
Hat. What were your most interesting experiences on that job?
Tonelson: I was, I guess, a novice when I was reporting, but I was
always fascinated with covering the football games that we played at
that time. Certainly in the beginning of our athletics most of the schools
that we played tended to be high schools. Occasionally we played smaller
colleges. I remember trips to East Carolina Teachers College, as it
was then known. Now it's East Carolina University. I remember trips
to Bowies Creek where Campbell College is located. So these were the
interesting experiences that I had, the fact that I got to go on trips
with these teams. Whereas in the past, I hadn't really been anywhere.
[4]
Q: Do you recall the student/faculty baseball game played on April
21, 1933 in which the students won 37-7?
Tonelson: Memory certainly fails me on this one, because in '33
I was a member of the baseball team. I would have begun my third year
on the squad. We were always having student/faculty games of one sort
or another in basketball and certainly in baseball. I may have participated
with the faculty at that time, as I was a student instructor. I do remember
a game being played in the rain. There seemed to be a lot of hitting
and a lot of base running. And the rains came down and perhaps this
must be the game in which the students won 37-7.
Q: Could you tell me of your experiences as a pitcher on the varsity
baseball team for three years?
Tonelson: I'm a great one for keeping everything the same and when
you first mentioned this interview, I happened to be looking through
a textbook that I had used in the old Norfolk Division.., it's called
Public Education in the United States by Coverley, and I had
put it to good use evidently. In it I found that I had compiled my record
in baseball of over three years. I became a member of the first baseball
team in 1931 and then played again in '32 and '33 and in that period
of three years (and as I mentioned, many of our games were played against
high schools and some smaller colleges in North Carolina) my record
over the three year period indicated that I had won fifteen games and
lost two games. I remember I lost a very close game to Cape Charles
High School by the score of 3-2 and then in my third year I lost a close
game to Wilson, 5-3. In my second year, in 1932, on the basis of having
won five games and pitched some 19 innings in relief, I was named the
leading pitcher of the Tidewater Interscholastic Baseball League which
consisted of the high schools in the Tidewater area at that time along
with the Norfolk Division.
Q: Was the student-faculty relationship in your student days here
a particularly close one?
Tonelson: I would say for a number of us, it was a very, very close
relationship. It was almost in certain instances like a father to a
son or daughter, or an older brother or sister to a younger brother
or sister. It was not unusual for a group of students to be seen around
any of our professors when they were not teaching, to be engaged in
conversation, discussing topics which. Unfortunately, there was no time
to discuss in the class. Again I would emphasize the fact that it was
a very close relationship. The professors certainly knew us by name
and we in turn knew our professors, and because of the caliber of these
professors, we had a great deal of respect for them, and certainly there
was a great deal of admiration by the students for these instructors.
[5]
Q: How was it that you obtained a Bachelor of Science degree from
William and Mary in only three years, and as you mentioned, you spent
part of this time in Williamsburg?
Tonelson: As I mentioned previously, I had been at William and Mary
at the second half of the 1930-31 semester at which time I completed
approximately eighteen hours of freshman work. With the opening of the
Division in September I immediately enrolled and was able to complete
three years of course work. At the end of the second year certain courses
were taught on the third year level. These were in Biology, as I remember,
and in Chemistry. I was able thereby to take these additional courses.
I then went back to the College of William and Mary during the summer
of '33 and by taking an additional eight hours of course work in Chemistry
and six hours in History I w and six hours in History I was able to
get my BS degree with a major in Biology and minors in History and Chemistry.
Q: Why did you elect to continue at the college as a Biology lab instructor
after your graduation in 1933?
Tonelson: We were still in the throes of the Depression. It was
extremely difficult to get any kind of a job however menial it may have
been. I owed what was then a considerable sum of money to the College
of William and Mary, in that for most of the time, I had signed notes
for my tuition. The Director here contacted the authorities of William
and Mary, and I was interviewed and named as a student instructor in
Biology. I might say that my pay at this time was something like $40
a month and the College of William and Mary kept $25 of this so that
I could meet the debt that I owed them. So I was getting along somehow
living at home with $15 a month.
Q: One question I wanted to add is what was your connection with the
issuance of the first yearbook called The Cauldron?
Tonelson: I believe The Cauldron was issued in 1939. Previous
to that time we had an honorary scientific fraternity, Sigma Epsilon
Pi, it was called. At the time the work on The Cauldron began,
I was I guess you might say, the President of Sigma Epsilon Pi. I believe
the title was Grand Alchemist, if I'm not mistaken. This scientific
fraternity began with a group of students who were majoring in Chemistry
under the direction of Dr. Perry Jackson, so it was during my regime
as Grand Alchemist that the plans were made and carried out and
we were rewarded in that we were able to publish The Cauldron.
It was the first yearbook of the Norfolk Division.
Q: What were your main impressions then of the college during the
1930's?
Tonelson: As far as I was concerned it was a college which was giving
me the opportunity to go ahead in the field of education. It enabled
others also to make beginnings even for two years, in their chosen careers,
so we for the most part took advantage of the offerings of the college.
I would guess that my main impression was the closeness of the group
of students certainly in the early years. It seemed that we would do
almost anything to help our fellow students. We studied together, we
tutored each other. Again I would point out the closeness we had with
our professors, but the main impression,
[6]
it seemed to me, was the oneness which bound us all together to
this Norfolk Division of the College of William and Mary.
Q: What motivated you to choose teaching as a career?
Tonelson: Well, again I go back to those years of the Depression.
It was almost impossible to get jobs. Certainly my family could not
afford to send me away so I could pursue some professional course such
as a doctor, or a lawyer, even though many of my friends were able to
do this. I continued to work toward my degree, and in that I did need
credits, hoping to get enough credits to be graduated from the College
of William and Mary in the shortest amount of time as possible. I selected
quite a number of courses in Education and electives. So with my BS
degree in Biology and having met the requirements for teaching as set
up by the State Department of Education, I also received a teaching
certificate in Biology, Science, Chemistry, History and all grades up
to the eighth.
Q: After four years of teaching at Ruffner Junior High School (1936-39)
you joined the faculty at Maury High School (1939-43). Why did you make
this change from junior to senior high school teaching?
Tonelson: As you mentioned I was teaching at Ruffner Junior High
School and then in 1939 Granby High School (it was then called Granby
Street High School, I believe at that time) was opened and quite a number
of teachers who were teaching not only at Ruffner but also at Blair
were asked if they would like to teach at Granby Street High School.
I was asked would I like to teach at Granby or Maury High School, in
that the backyard in which I lived at that time was adjacent to the
back of Maury. So I elected to teach at Maury. In the fall of 1939,
I began to teach at Maury High School, a school from which I had been
graduated back in 1929.
Q: Could you describe your service in the United States Army in World
War II?
Tonelson: I wish that I could tell you what a hero I was in the
United States Army in World War II, but I guess I was somewhat like
Sgt. Bilko. I served a little over three years, but most of the time
I was stationed at Camp Lee, which is now Fort Lee in Petersburg, Virginia.
I actually got out of the state in all that time once when I spent four
months attending Finance School at Fort Ben Harrison in Indianapolis,
Indiana. I could go on for hours and tell you about my service in the
United
[7]
States army in World War II. Many amusing things happened but I
was very fortunate in that, I guess, I wasn't assigned to go overseas.
I had three assignments to go overseas, but in each case these were
canceled for one reason or another. I guess they felt I couldn't do
the military much good overseas. So that would have to be another chapter
at another time.
Q: When you returned from your military service did you return to
teaching?
Tonelson: I was discharged from the Army on Christmas Day 1945 and
returned to Norfolk. I went to see the Superintendent about taking up
a teaching position. At this time there were no openings, but I was
named Director of Veterans Training for the public schools of Norfolk.
I set up programs for returning veterans. Actually it was a two-track
program. We had a program for veterans who were returning to high school
in order to receive their high school diploma, and then we established
another program in which we taught certain kinds of occupation skills
to other veterans who were more interested in going into the job market.
I remained as Director of Veteran Programs for the City of Norfolk
it seem to me, two and a half or three years. Then I left this program
in order to enter private business as Manager of Hamburg and Co. ship
supplies company. The reason I did this, I had been married in 1945,
just previous to getting out of the service. My wife's family owned
the ship supplies company. There was really no one to carry on the business
at this time. There was a brother who was getting old. My wife's mother
was quite old, so I went into that business and managed the company.
During all this time, I guess I still had a longing to return to the
field of education.
Mr. Brubaker, who was then Superintendent of schools in Norfolk had
called me on a number of occasions and asked me would I not return to
teaching. Then in 1950 I was given the opportunity to return to teaching
as a special substitute in Government at Maury High School. A teacher
had left unexpectedly, and I wanted to go back to teaching. We'd made
other arrangements to take care of the business, so I returned.
Two months after I had started this substituting, the teacher that
I had replaced returned unexpectedly. Mr. Brubaker called me down to
his office and asked me would I mind going to teach at Patrick Henry
Elementary School which was in Atlantic City at that time. This meant
teaching a fifth and sixth grade. I was very happy to return to teaching
so I went and taught there for half a year. That summer I went to William
and Mary to continue my work on my Masters degree which I had started
the previous summer. Again Mr. Brubaker called and asked me how would
I like to be Acting Assistant Principal of Maury High School. I jumped
at this and in September of 1950, I returned to Maury as Acting Assistant
Principal. I served in this capacity for one year, then in 1951 I was
named the Assistant Principal.
[8]
Q: How successful were your basketball teams at Maury?
Tonelson: I coached the basketball teams at Maury on two occasions.
In both instances for some reason or another, for a period of one year
we were unable to hire a coach. Actually my first year of coaching at
Maury was in 1943-44. I inherited a team which I think had won approximately
five games and lost fifteen games the year before, and turned the record
completely around by winning fifteen games and losing five.
Then again after a period of some ten years I again was called upon
to coach the 1953-54 team at Maury and again turned an unsuccessful
previous season into a successful season. I might say there was a lot
of joking going on when I began to coach the '53 team, because when
I had coached in '43 we had the center jump after each point being made.
However, in '53 the center jump was abandoned and the only time we jumped
was on a held ball at the beginning of each quarter. So all in all we
were very successful. I coached a number of young men who went on to
fame and glory at the Norfolk Division of the College of William and
Mary, which later became Old Dominion College. I taught others who went
to VPI or VMI, who really became very successful basketball players,
but this was because they had good coaches at the time.
Q: What did your job as principal of the Maury High Night School involve?
Tonelson: Here again, I guess it was being in the right spot at
the right time. I was the Assistant Principal of the Maury High School.
The principal of the Maury Night School had some 2500 students attending
night school, and he became ill, I believe he had a heart attack, and
as they looked around for someone to take over to end that particular
term, I happened to be there. My work as Assistant Principal kept me
in the building long hours so I was asked if I would take on the additional
job as Principal of the Maury Night School. I found it to be rather
fascinating, in that most of those who came to the night school were
adults, and generally involved in learning skills which would enable
them to take up jobs in the business world. There was no problem of
discipline and the like. So all in all it was a very enjoyable position
to be in.
Q: When did you serve as visiting Associate Professor of Education
at the College of William and Mary in Williamsburg? How did you come to
accept the position?
Tonelson: My ties with the College of William and Mary in Williamsburg
have always remained very close. On every occasion during the summer
months I was there as a student in the School of Education. In fact
one of the standing jokes among the professors there was that I had
been a student at William and Mary when Pocahontas used to run around
in the woods behind the campus. There were
[9]
times I felt I had been there that long. At this time a Dr. Oliver,
who happened to be Dean of the School of Education at William and Mary
asked me would I take a teaching job. I believe the first class I taught
for him was in general Psychology. I don't know what made me say yes,
but I did say yes, and from that time on they used me to teach classes,
not in Psychology, thank goodness, but in the field of Education. I
was teaching extension courses for them in the Tidewater area and then
during the summer I went on campus and taught some Education classes.
Q: What were the principal challenges facing you in 1957 in your new
position as principal of Maury High School?
Tonelson: When I assumed the position of Principal of Maury High
School, I guess the challenges that one had to meet dealt with the educational
program. The problems pertaining to discipline were few and far between
actually. We had a hard core of youngsters who would come to the office
because of truancy and an occasional forgery, this kind of thing. But
I am sure these are not the kinds of discipline problems that principals
face today. So with the small amount of time that had to be spent on
discipline, our main thrust was toward improving our education program.
Certainly new types of courses were being added to the curriculum, which
necessitated study groups and the like, so the challenge was to keep
Maury's fine record always before the public and the students, so they
in turn could add to the fine record that Maury had in the past years.
I guess all in all it was a matter of instilling in the students and
in the teachers the respect for each other and the idea that Maury High
School had been number one and was going to continue as number one in
the field of education.
Q: What role did you play in efforts
to have the schools reopened during the Massive Resistance crisis of 1958?
Tonelson: Again I guess I could write a book here. This was the
most trying time because of the Governor's edict, Maury was one of the
three high schools to be closed in Norfolk, in that the federal court
had decreed that we were to take, in the case of Maury, one lone black
youngster along with our 2500-2600 whites. However we were closed from
September until February. I visited any number of PTA groups, civic
clubs and the like and spoke out. I tried to point out the terrible
price that our youngsters were paying in that the high school was closed.
At times I was threatened. I was called all kinds of names, but I just
had to persist with this, and I assure you I'm no knight in shining
white armor. The whole program of Massive Resistance to me was just
a stupid one in that it denied our young people the privilege of going
to our high school to receive an education. The seeds that were laid
at that time unfortunately still continue to grow, it seems to me, as
I view our school situation today.
[10]
Q: You referred to this, but I will ask anyway, were you subject to
harassment by the school closures during, the Massive Resistance crisis
of 1958?
Tonelson: As I've already mentioned, I was called all kinds of names,
which I would prefer not to repeat at this particular time. I was allowed
in the building during the time of the closing and it was not unusual
for me to receive harassing phone calls or threatening phone calls.
I remember one that I repeated to a friend and it made its rounds throughout
the city of Norfolk and it is true.
One day I was seated in the office, alone as usual. It was raining
so hard outside you could hardly see two inches from your nose. The
phone rang and this rather abrupt voice told me that I had better get
out of the building. When I proceeded to ask why, I was told that the
building was going to be burned within the next hour. I remarked, had
he looked to see how it was raining outside, and with that I hung up.
This was one of the light moments that occurred during this particular
time. As I say there were others, but it was a most terrible time, especially
for parents who had their children in the high school.
Q: What are your recollections on the difficult period in Norfolk's
history in the sense of how was it that widespread violence was avoided,
and did you have any contact with the political leaders such as City Council
or the school committee leaders who were trying to get the schools reopened?
Tonelson: Well, as I read in the paper what happened in Boston not
too long ago, because of integration and the like, it makes me even
more proud of the citizens in Norfolk. There were certainly a strong
faction of segregationists who felt it was the proper thing to do to
close the previously all white high schools rather than let any blacks
into the school. However most of this took part in rhetoric and the
like. I am only thankful to the people of Norfolk who were able to take
this in stride without any violence. Certainly we wrote to our Congressmen,
to our Senators, to our Representatives in Richmond, to the Governor.
We did not get very far in doing this. I encouraged parents to do this.
They would say well we did it and it hasn't helped. Now you tell us
to keep on doing it. They were rather bitter, but at no time was there
any violence for which we can certainly all be thankful. Our city council
at this time certainly supported a segregated school system, but fortunately
they came to their senses so the school were eventually opened.
Q: Did you teach part-time at Old Dominion College while you were
principal of Maury High School?
Tonelson: I not only taught at Old Dominion College, I was also teaching
extension summer school at the College of William and Mary. Dr. Franklin
Jones had become Dean of the Division of the School of Education at
Old Dominion College and interviewed and had asked me to teach classes
in the field of guidance. I had already been teaching such classes for
[11]
William and Mary in their extension as well as during the summer session.
So while I was principal of Maury High School, I spent some three nights
a week also teaching extension for Old Dominion College and the College
of William and Mary. Of course, this was done with the approval of the
Superintendent.
Q: Why did you leave Maury High School in 1966 to join the ODC faculty?
Tonelson: Sometimes I wonder about this myself, but my ties with
Old Dominion College were very strong. Actually they went back to the
old Norfolk Division of the College of William and Mary, and I've covered
that period previously. There was a challenge in coming to Old Dominion
College. It was just at the beginning of, it seemed to me, a tremendous
growth period and having been at the beginning, I wanted to be a part
of it again. I guess for this reason I did leave public school education
to join the faculty here.
Q: What courses did you teach at Old Dominion?
Tonelson: As I've already mentioned, I taught courses in the field
of Guidance and Counseling. Dr. Jones was interested in setting up a
program in administration and my courses that I taught here then dealt
with secondary school, elementary school, and public school administration.
This would also include courses in the field of Curriculum Education,
and similar educational programs or courses.
Q: Could you give, your estimate of the quality of the teacher training
programs at ODC in 1966? What were the strengths and weaknesses?
Tonelson: I assume some of the strengths had to do with the numbers.
At this time we weren't too large in number. We have a great deal of
attention to the individual student who was preparing to teach in various
public school systems here and else where. We perhaps did a better job
supervision these individuals in that again, as I say there, weren't
too many out in the field. I also feel that those of us who did the
supervising in the field were much closer to the individual teacher
trainee than we have today. Because of other commitments and the like,
sometimes I feel that our professors are not quite interested in supervising
these young people who are going in the field in the hopes of becoming
teachers. Certainly today we are much stronger in the course offerings
that we have to give to our student-teachers. In addition to this there
is a program now called participation in which our students in the second
year...go out into the schools and observe what is going on. Many are
called upon to do various jobs that teachers have to do, and this in
turn gives them an idea of whether they wish to continue in teaching
or not. We did not have this particular type of program at that time
when I was here in '66. I think this has aided and embedded in our preparations
of teachers and has enabled us to carefully look at our people as well
as their opportunity to look at themselves as prospective teachers.
[12]
Q: Could you discuss how during your busy career you were able to
acquire a Master of Education degree in Guidance from the College of William
and Mary in 1953 and a Doctor of Philosophy degree in Administration and
Supervision from Michigan State University in 1963?
Tonelson: As I mentioned earlier, I served in the Army and then
under the GI Bill of Rights, I guess in the summer of 1950. I had the
thought that as long as I was going to be in education, and of course
this was before I went into business, that I should go ahead and work
for my master's degree in Guidance. Of course, the College of William
and Mary was the closest college with which I had ties.
So in the summer of '50, and then I believe maybe '52, and then again
in '53 (I don't know why I didn't return in '51) I worked on a master's
degree in Guidance. I might say that just before being drafted into
the Army I had been working on a master's degree at the College of William
and Mary and had completed most of my class work. However when I went
back to William and Mary in the summer of '50, and the tuition and book
were being paid for by the GI Bill, it was like a vacation. I've always
loved Williamsburg. I took an additional thirty hours of work. I imagine
I probably received more credits in working toward a master's degree
from the College of William and Mary than anyone ever before, since
or after. Again I was fortunate in that I completed my work in '53.
I had a friend at the College of William and Mary, a young man who came
in the summer of '51 from Michigan State University. And at a conference
that was held on the campus of William and Mary in the field of Guidance,
the main speaker was a Guidance professor from Michigan State University,
and somehow or another he convinced me that I should go on for my doctorate.
This was in the fall of '53-54, so I received a graduate assistantship
to work, not in Guidance, but in the field of Administration at Michigan
State. So that fall I packed up my wife and my two youngsters and we
went off to Michigan State University. I completed a year's work there,
then went back the second summer, and completed all the requirements
for the doctorate with the exception of the dissertation. For the next
intervening eight or nine years I really did nothing in the way of a
dissertation, other than to become unhappy by thinking when I went somewhere
that I should be working on the dissertation. And finally, I believe
it was Thanksgiving of '62, I decided I was going to write the dissertation.
So between Thanksgiving of '62 and the beginning of the year of '63,
I finished the dissertation and contacted my professors at Michigan
State University. I had been in contact with them all along and I was
able to finish the dissertation, which I received in the summer of '63.
They made me take additional work because of the intervening period
for some nine or ten years.
[13]
Q: As chairman of the Department of Secondary Education at Old Dominion
College from 1966-69, what changes did you bring about in the Department?
Tonelson: I don't know that I brought many changes to the department
during that period. I mentioned introducing the course of participation,
which we required of all sophomores who said they wanted to go into
teaching. During those years, the enrollment continued to increase,
which meant that we had to add additional courses, so I guess really
the changes that occurred were brought about by increases number of
students coming into the school of education by the addition of faculty
members and more or less carried on the plan that Dr. Jones had set
up for me when he talked to me about coming to the college.
Q: In 1969 you were chosen to succeed Dr. Franklin Ross Jones as Dean
of the Darden School of Education. What were your thoughts on becoming
Dean?
Tonelson: I guess my first thought was I was extremely flattered
that I was selected to follow Dr. Jones as Dean of the School of Education
because he had done so much to enlarge the school and make it prestigious.
Certainly I was aware of the many challenges that I would have to face.
I already mentioned as Department Chairman we were beginning to face
increased numbers of students who enrolled in the School of Education.
We were in the process of hiring many additional faculty members to
take care of the increasing enrollment. But again, reiterating, I was
extremely flattered. I felt it would be very, very challenging and I
really hoped I could succeed in carrying out the philosophy and the
policies of the college at that time.
Q: Did you have any basic philosophy of plan to implement in the School
of Education?
Tonelson: I type of teacher that we could as we trained them. I
imagine this was really my basic philosophy. The plan to implement this,
as I've already pointed out, was to put in a course when the students
were in their second year which would enable us to screen them as well
as to enable them to see if they thought teaching was the kind of position
that they wanted. I also had one other idea, which had not been implemented
up to this time. That was to have a program where education majors were
to substitute some 70 hours or 50 hours (the hours are not important),
but the students were to work in nursery schools and the like. And kind
of work that would get them working with children while they were in
the freshman year. This would be non-credit. Upon successful completion
of this, they then would go into the second year of the School of Education
and in this we would have our course of participation and then go into
a third and fourth year when they were called upon to do student teaching.
This plan has been implemented with the exception of a voluntary program
in the first year.
Q: Why did you leave the Dean's post in 1971?
[14]
Tonelson: I was asked by Dr. Bugg if I would take this new position
which had been conceived as Assistant to the President for School and
Community Relations. The College had grown tremendously. It was important
that there be someone who would be a middleman perhaps in dealing with
the school and with the community leaders and the like. I imagine it
was Dr. Bugg's thinking that I, who had been living here most of my
life, and who had been very active in the public schools, perhaps would
best fit that particular position. So, when the position was offered,
I was given time to think about it. It was one that appealed to me.
It would enable me again to pick up the close ties I had with many educators,
many community leaders were beginning to disappear as I was the Dean
and had no occasion to really meet with our community leaders, so I
did take the position.
Q: Could you be more specific in what were your duties and responsibilities
in the new position as Assistant to the President for School and Community
Relations?
Tonelson: As Assistant to the President for School and Community
Relation I worked very, very closely with Superintendents as to the
type of programs they felt we might institute in our School of Education
or any of our schools which would enable us to better prepare the teachers
that would be hired to teach in their system. No only this, but we discussed
various types of programs for the slow learner, for the gifted child,
and the like. Out of this has grown a number of programs that we engage
in cooperatively with the various school systems.
I worked rather closely with the community college officials and we
were able to work out certain programs with Norfolk State. We were able
to work out a cooperative program with them involving our teacher trainees
that were highly successful. So these were some of the things that I
did carry on as Assistant to the President. I might also say I tried
to make friends for the college, and the later the University as I worked
with the city officials and the like.
Q: What had been the highlights of your work with President Bugg?
Tonelson: It is a difficult question to answer. I guess really it
was bringing the School of Education to the minds of certainly the school
people in the area. By Dr. Bugg appointing me to this position, I had
the time to go out and work very closely with the various individuals
in the Tidewater area, whether they were in education or whether they
were in political areas. I think perhaps this has been the highlight
of my work for Dr. Bugg.
Q: In February l973, you were named by Dr. Bugg as the University's
Affirmative Action and Equal Employment Opportunity officer. What did
this appointment involve?
Tonelson: Actually this was assuming another hat. In February 1973
we really weren't aware of all the ramifications of Affirmative Action
and Equal Employment. However, a look at one of the shelves in my bookcase
would indicate the amount of work that has gone into the University's
Affirmative Action Equal Employment Opportunity Program. I'm responsible
to see that records are kept and that records are forwarded to the State
and to the National Government. When called upon, I’m involved.
Whenever some action is taken by one of our people, who charge us with
discrimination and this kind of thing.
Q: Do you feel that you’ve accomplished your original goals as
Affirmative Action and Equal Opportunity Officer?
A: Well I don’t think anyone ever accomplishes their goals. Personally
I would like for us to have a greater black student enrollment then
we now have without decreasing our requirements for entrance to the
university. I certainly feel that we should have a greater number of
black professors on our campus even though we’re faced with many,
many problems here; we are not competitive as far as salary is concerned.
But all in all, I think we’ve done a fairly good job in affirmative
action equal employment opportunity, however, there are still many,
many more miles to go and I especially point out the increased enrollment
among black students as well as black faculty.
Q: Did you set any quotas, formal or informal, for the hiring of blacks
and women?
A: No. We do not have any quotas, as I have previously stated. Certainly,
we would do everything that we possibly could to increase the number
of blacks and minorities that are on the campus. I say we would do possibly
anything we could, I think with the exception of lowering requirements;
this I cannot see. I think it’s unfair to a black student; it’s
unfair to perhaps any minority student to be enrolled, whereas all kind
of records would indicate that the person could not succeed in their
attempt to receive a college or university education. I think this is
unfair to these people. So we do not have quotas but we are constantly
looking to hire blacks and minorities, we are constantly looking to
increase the number of blacks and minorities on our campus as it concerns
our student body.
Q: How do you try to prevent reverse discrimination against middle class
whites in the employment process?
A: Well, in hiring faculty there is a form that the applicant fills
out concerning his race, his sex and the like that comes to me in a
separate envelope when he makes an application for a position. The Chairman
or the Dean who receives the application does not know as to the race
or the sex of the individual unless it’s obvious by name. That
applicant then is judged on the merits of his ability, his training
and the like. This way is to say as we hire we don’t know, at
least the Dean or the Chairman doesn’t know he’s dealing
with a white or with a black. When the selection is made and I am told,
then I compile my figures, which will go to the state and to the Office
of Civil Rights or H.E.W. (Health, Education & Welfare).
Q: You’ve mentioned a number of your duties at the University today.
Are there any other important duties that you have?
A: I don’t know how important this duty is that affords me so
much pleasure. For the last nine or ten years I have served as Timekeeper
for our basketball games. As I say, it is not a duty it is a pleasure;
one that I enjoy. I might say, I also continue to teach a guidance class
for the School of Education.
Q: What are your impressions of your Alma Mata after watching it grow
over a period of forty years?
A: As I look back over this period of forty years, and it doesn’t
seem to have been that long, I’m just filled with pride as to
the growth of what was the old Norfolk Division of the College of William
and Mary; from the enrollment of two hundred students to today where
we have an enrollment of thirteen thousand students; from a faculty
of ten professors, some of whom commuted from Williamsburg, to a faculty
that numbers over four hundred. One just has to have a feeling of pride
in knowing that somehow or the other even though he played a small part
he was there at the beginning he’s here now and hopefully he will
be here long enough to observe this growth over the period of the next
few years. I guess that’s about it. It was sort of heart tugging
to see that old elementary school building that had given me so much
joy and pleasure being torn down. I guess this is progress. Those of
us who attended that old building will forever cherish it in our memory.
However, we’re also filled with pride when we see what has occurred
over this area; where once there were streets with houses now we have
these imposing academic buildings; where a few students used to walk
along the walks today we see hundreds and thousands of students hurriedly
going from one place to the other. You can’t have but a feeling
of pride in seeing the growth that has taken place from 1930 to this
period of 1975.
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