[preliminary interview discussion included]

Kusiak: Today I'm talking with Dr. Dudley Cooper, a prominent dentist, in his office.

Cooper: No, optometrist and businessman.

Kusiak: Dr. Cooper, first I'd like to know sort of how you got involved with the Ocean View Amusement Park.

Cooper: Well, in 1942 the park was offered to me as a real estate venture. When I investigated the park in the middle of the winter, which is a desolate time of the year to examine an amusement park, it occurred to me that perhaps it would be a profitable endeavor to operate it as such. Upon further inquiry into the situation, I found that it being a war period during the World War II, the Navy was very much interested in considering the park for the recreation of the men who were embarking in this area for overseas duty. I found out that there was a great difficulty in operating the park at that time because of the lack of critical material, such as intercom systems and so forth. The Association of Commerce, which is the Norfolk Chamber of Commerce as it was then known, interceded for us and obtained Navy special requisitions to obtain those types of materials needed.

At the time there was a great deal of excitement in the area because the battleships of Germany were operating off the East Coast. In as much as elated activity would provide background for a target, it occurred to us (the operators of the park) to erect a baffle, a twelve-foot high plywood baffle, across the whole front of the amusement park to shield the light and to prevent the enemy from looking in to see what the target would be. In addition, we developed lighting through tin cans, which were over the electric glows, which cause the illumination to shine onto the boardwalk. It was very limited in lighting effects, but we managed to run a very successful park that year.

That was the beginning of the Ocean View Park, our connection with it. We purchased it from the subsidiary company of the Virginia Electric and Power Company, who owned it and who had taken it over during the 1933 hurricane which occurred in here and which washed out most of the park and had no protection from the water. The boardwalk was in disreputable condition. We invested considerable sums of money later to put in concrete bulkheads and redeck the former wooden walkways with concrete which stayed in position until the end of our operation there.

Kusiak: Were these your most successful years, this period during the war?

Cooper: During the war years, of course, we had a great deal of traffic in the park. The men were going overseas directly from the Amphibious Installation here. Incidentally, the amphibious warfare (exercises) originated nearby along Shore Drive which is now the present Amphibious Base. The strategy

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for the operation of the amphibious warfare was developed about three hundred yards west of our park at the Nansemond Hotel, which was given over to the naval service at that time. So, all the strategy for the amphibious warfare was planned there. The Navy wanted the men to have recreation before they went overseas for the morale. I think we succeeded in doing that.

Kusiak: So, these were good years. Now, let's talk about segregation. How did segregation affect [the park]?

Cooper: Well, that's way down the line, 1964. We want to take this in chronological order.

Kusiak: I want it chronologically, but I'm not really sure what I'm doing.

Cooper: The desegregation feature came much later. At that time there was no such thing as desegregation. The park was segregated. We inherited it that way and it was the custom and tradition of the whole country. Integration and accommodation came in 1964.

Kusiak: Well, maybe you can help me out and fill in these years.

Cooper: I'll try to fill in for you. Now, what else do you want to know? What was your next question?

Kusiak: The next question was about the fire, but that's too far down, too. Well, why don't you fill in between?

Cooper: Being new in the industry, not having previously any experience in operating an amusement park, we had to learn very rapidly. Of course we took in concessionaires to operate certain of the games, former carnival operators became our concessionaires. I didn't like the fact that they were operating rather loosely and introducing a certain amount of gambling in the games. We attempted to correct that by going to court with them, but apparently the influence of the concessionaires with the local constabulary prevented any termination of that activity, and it continued all during the war.

Further, they also rented a theater which was in the park and represented to us that they would operate a vaudeville type of performance. We found out that they introduced burlesque, which was appropriate for a Navy town at that time and of course was acceptable. We got rid of that after two or three years. It was a seven-year lease and I termed it the "seven year itch" for us. We bought them out. We bought the lease back and terminated that activity. That was all during the war years. Of course, it was typical for burlesque to be in a naval city, but we didn't really say too much because our experience was extraneous to that sort of activity. Anyhow, it was all part of an experience of learning.

Kusiak: Let's talk about post-war years. What happened then?

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Cooper: We branched out in later years. No, at the same time that we bought the amusement park in 1942, we also bought in 1943 and began to operate in '43 a facility at Virginia Beach known as Seaside Amusement Park, which we at present operate. We own the property and operate the park there.

In between there was an ownership of certain land between Virginia Beach and Ocean View Park. The land was owned by a syndicated group of blacks, who are professional people, who invited us to put in the amusements at their activity which was known as Sea View Beach. We operated an amusement park there. We operated the amusements at the park which was quite popular with the blacks because they had never been exposed to an amusement park so freely as they were there. It was not a successful financial endeavor, because the blacks did not have the economic power. Further, the owners of the property charged an admission to come into the park and to the facility. Of course, if the person came in the gate and paid the admission fee, they usually spent out most of their money at that point. They would have very little to spend for rides and other activities. However, it served a sociological situation and it was considered successful.

Then in 1964 when the Accommodation Law came into being, blacks could go anyplace. Naturally, they went to Ocean View and forsook their Sea View Beach enterprise. Of course that was later closed. The blacks came into the picture at Ocean View Park. Now, that presented a problem for the whites who traditionally visited Ocean View Park and considered that was their facility and objected to the intrusion.

At first there were situations where there was conflict--not too much violence--just conflict. People couldn't understand why blacks could appear and so on, but they had to learn that that was the law and we observe the law. They came into the park in great numbers, at least they did at first. The whites absented themselves and the blacks took over, particularly on the weekends Saturday and Sunday, not on the weekdays. When they discovered that the blacks were not in attendance during the weekdays, the whites came back in a moderate degree. It was lifting up economically for us.

Kusiak: Did you find this was the beginning of your downfall?

Cooper: No, that was not. The fact is, it wasn't as profitable. They were peacetime years, and we had been accustomed to the great volume of business being done during the war years, and there was this contrast. We managed and the operation was successful and was a justified investment until 1965, and then it began to show a loss in the latter two years. We sold the park in 1978. 1976 and 1977 showed a great deal of loss and it was time to change the

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program. That was when we sold it to the city.

Kusiak: Had the city pressured you?

Cooper: There were several conversations to and fro between the council and ourselves. Then later on the council changed the personnel. The complection changed and we had to start all over again. Finally, it ended up in a sale. Not at the price we wanted for the property or that we valued it at, and that it was appraised for, but nevertheless, it was good for the city and certainly good for us. We're very satisfied and I think the city is, too, about the transaction.

Kusiak: How did the bigger amusement attraction areas -- Busch Gardens -- affect your park?

Cooper: I think there is room at present for a small local or regional amusement park. Ocean View Amusement Park was considered a regional park. Whenever an amusement park had a Sky Rocket, it was considered a major operation -- we had one. Ours was considered an outstanding one. It was 90 feet high at its peak, and it took a full minute at a mile a minute to make the entire circle. It was a very thrilling ride, and that was the major ride at the park.

During the years we spent, since the purchase of the park, perhaps three million dollars on various occasions to make capital improvements: parking lots and various other things. When we took over the facility, there was a dirt parking lot that was unbearable to come in on a rainy day. And at a great expense to us, we had it graded in such a manner that water would run off in a few minutes after a sudden downpour; and that was an upturn in that direction.

Then we built a fireproof bathhouse. At the time (1942-1943), there were not quite as many automobiles, there weren't as many places to go, and there weren't many bathing facilities. I think ours is one of the outstanding ones. But the bathhouse at Ocean View Park when we inherited it was a labyrinth of rooms that were in a wooden structure, and we feared a holocaust there in case there was a fire. So one of the first things we did was to build a hundred percent fireproof bathhouse, which at the present exists. It was tile inside and out, and it was successful during the war years particularly. Then when other attractions were developed over the years -- nightclubs and dance places, places where people could go to in their automobiles -- the bathhouse dwindled in attractiveness. Then with the sudden influx of blacks, it took a serious decline. The bathhouse was an expensive one.

Later on another thing we added was a fishing pier. The fishing pier was 1000 feet from shore into the water in the beginning, but as it became popular and needed, we added another thirty feet. The storm during 1975, I believe, tore off half the pier extending into the water, and that's the way it stands at the present time.

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Of course, the city's purchase of it has left its future undetermined at this point. Now, three years ago or two, we built an addition to the pier which would permit what is known as "head boats," which means boats that are used by fishermen, to go out on a half day tour or a day's tour to fish. That was an expense of around 40,000 dollars which had barely begun to return on its investment when the storm came.

As novices in the amusement park business, we had much to learn, but we did create lots of new things that were never done in this area before. We built a stage for circus attractions, and every week we changed our menu. We had aerialists and all types of performers and even special events on Sundays. We had then a person who was well known in the community, an entertainer named Joe Brown. He put on contests of every variety, and every Sunday we had something different throughout the season.

On one occasion we staged a gigantic wedding. Well, we must have had 5,000 people in the audience witnessing a young couple get married. Joe Brown was the master of ceremony. We had special events where swimmers would cross the Hampton Roads, from Hampton across the Bay into our park.

We once had another stunt where a man walked under water, a diver walked the same distance underwater. He came in too early. We planned that he would come in to shore about twelve o'clock when the people would be there to witness him, but he called one of the owners, one of the principals, to say that he had arrived about six thirty in the morning. We told him to go back and come back at twelve o'clock, which he did. Then in addition to that we had a permit to show fireworks, and we had a pyrotechnical display every week, usually. And on special occasions like holidays, we had two days of fireworks and we still continued that practice until we closed at the end of the 1978 season.

Kusiak: You did a lot for promoting...

Cooper: Excuse me. One season we built a boxing ring and had professional boxing here at Ocean View once a week. We had the commissioners of the wrestling fraternity to preside over boxing and it was well attended; of course that was another phase of the activities there.

Kusiak: These attractions drew large crowds?

Cooper: We usually did, whatever was topical. We went with the trend. We had a ballroom there too that was quite large and one of the first ones in the area in the course of history. That building burned down about twenty years ago. The whole building burned down and demolished part of the park at the time. There were two fires at Ocean View.

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This was the first one. It demolished the building at the west end of the amusement park, where the upstairs was used as a dance ballroom and the bottom floor was used as a picnic area, very popular. Cars used to run there by the electric company, by the Vepco Company, for many years. They still do for that matter. But they had open trailer cars that were loaded every Sunday to bring down picnickers during the week also. When that occurred, we rebuilt the ballroom and transferred the picnic area into a special section at the east end of the park where we had concrete benches. All was free; we never had an admission charge at Ocean View Park in the beginning.

We did try to develop additional income about five years ago, and we erected a fence around our entire park, including the private beach. Incidentally, Ocean View Park's own beach in front of the park down to the water mark was one of the few beaches owned privately in the area. When we put the fence around, we charged twenty-five cents, and for two years it operated along that line. The third year we adopted a fifty-cent admission, but we gave a free ride that was equivalent to fifty cents in value. So, when they came, they could ride a fifty-cent ride indefinitely, as many times as they wished, and that was the arrangement for the public.

Ocean View Amusement Park came into being around the turn of the century. It was in the section of area which was later annexed by part of the city. It was not in the city at one time; it was part of a county. Various politicians, from what I understand, owned two sides of the park and they later consolidated their interests and became a park then. Bathing was the main attraction for the citizens, because there was a beautiful beach, pleasant waters and a bathhouse wasn't very much needed.

The original owner of the consolidated park was a person by the name of Otto Wells who was associated with his brother, Jake Wells. They owned the movie pictures in the area at the time and owned the amusement park, and his fetish was bathhouses. He knew how important it was for the income of the amusement park. So, whenever any enterprising person installed a bathhouse in the area, he would immediately buy them out so that he had no competition, and that's the way it existed for many years.

He owned the property towards the west of the amusement park and built a hotel known as the Nansemond Hotel, and that's how that came into being. It was built and operated by Mr. Otto Wells who owned the amusement park. He operated in some manner, I understand more or less, economically well until 1933 when the hurricane came along and washed him out. He became indebted to the traction company or the electric company, now known as Virginia Electric Power Company. They ran the streetcars down to the end. And incidentally that is the history of all amusement parks in America... is that the traction company wanted some use of its equipment on weekends. They usually purchased a

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facility at the end line, usually at a seashore to run their cost down on Saturday and Sunday. And that was the reason for their existence. Mr. Wells became indebted. Incidentally, power is a very vital component in operating a park. Lights and power running the rides are extremely important. He owed them quite a lot of money from my understanding. They later took over his park in consideration of sums of indebtedness in some manner when he became in financial difficulty. They operated as a subsidiary of Virginia Electric and Power Company called the Ocean Incorporated. That's the subsidiary from which we purchased the amusement park at the time.

During the years after the storm, Mr. Wells was operating manager for the V.E.P. Company until we took it over in 1942. We replaced our rides. We purchased new rides. Incidentally, today an amusement ride has gone up to such a point in price on account of inflation, that rides run anywhere from seventy-five to one hundred and fifty thousand dollars. It is economically impossible to make that type of money back in the short season that an amusement park operates, which usually is one hundred days, or maybe one hundred and twenty-five. They have a good three months, June through August, and that's the end of the season.

If unable to get your investment back in a reasonable time, it's economically unsafe. The rides that are like you mentioned in Busch Gardens and Kings Dominion run as high as three hundred to four hundred and fifty thousand dollars.

Fundamentally, all rides do something. The action is either around and around or up and down. All rides are basically the same. They have different apparel. They dress them up in different manners. We once had a ride called the Cuddle-up that cost us at that time $50,000. It was successful because it had cups that rotated around and that seemed to be running into each other, but missed. That later became known as tea cups and is used at Disneyland and other important parks, but in a different shape and decoration. The merry-go-rounds are decorated differently but are basically the same.

Kusiak: I think the biggest ride I remember from Ocean View has got to be the roller coaster.

Cooper: Now you asked me early about the roller coaster. They were going to stage the movie picture called "Roller Coaster." We were asked to lend our facilities for part of the picture, which after certain negotiations, we did. It gave a little shot in the arm of interest to the public who came later to see the park with the new perspective of having seen the movie. Financially, it was not too important to us. The manager made an extra stipend and so did someone else in my organization, but so far as Ocean View Park was concerned, it was no financial effect at all. I don't think the picture was too

[Interview and transcript end here.]