This is Dr. James Sweeney, University Archivist of Old Dominion University. Today is June 28, 1979 and I am conducting an oral history interview at the home of Mr. Frederic Heutte, 248 North Blake Road in Norfolk. Mr. Heutte served for many years as the Superintendent of the Department Of Parks and Forestry for the city of Norfolk. He is undoubtedly one of the foremost horticulturists in Virginia and probably in the east. Mr. Heutte is responsible for the Azalea Gardens and the Norfolk Botanical Garden, achievements which have won him awards from societies and institutions both in the United States and abroad. We will now begin the oral history interview with Mr. Frederic Heutte.

Sweeney: The first question I wanted to ask you Mr. Heutte is this: Would you tell me about your parents and your childhood in Paris?

Heutte: I was born 1899 and my father was a (in those days they had hardly any automobiles) he was a coachman for a very wealthy family in France, incidentally they were Americans, rich, wealthy Americans. We lived right in Paris and we lived in an apartment because that's where he had his stables and coaches were several blocks away. My mother was not French, my father was French but my Mother was American. She was born in America and was learning the dressmaking trade. As I said in those days, automobiles was just coming to the fore and being that my Mother was from America, she urged my Father to come over here, he had never been here and we came over here when I was eleven years old and he came over here to do the same thing, he was a coachman and in the meanwhile he was

2

learning the automobile business because he knew that the horses were on their way out. So that's how we came to settle in America on a large private estate, in Cold Spring Harbor, Long Island and that's where I first started to get interested in horticulture being in this beautiful estate and seeing all the flowers and vegetables grow. So that's how my first interest came in.

Sweeney: You were interested in that as a boy?

Heutte: As a boy, yes. Because I went to school in America. I went to grammar schools in Cold Spring Harbor, Long Island and I stayed there till I was about fifteen years old when I graduated from grammar school and I was sort of anxious to learn more about that kind of business and I drifted on my own.

Sweeney: Would you describe your training in those days in horticulture and perhaps compare it to the training in that field today?

Heutte: Of course in those days horticulture as it was practiced, especially in large estates, horticulture was entirely different in interest in those days because they had parks and so on. My mother had a brother in Summit, New Jersey which was quite a nice little city so I went there to stay with them awhile and then I got a job as an apprentice boy in a florist shop in New York City the name of Foliage. They were the biggest florist in those days in America I guess and the man took an interest in me and told me that I should go into a large private estate where they train young men for horticulture. So from there I went back to Cold Spring Harbor, Long Island where we had first came and got a job as a trainee on an estate which was owned by H. W. Deforest, a very large estate, and I stayed there for four years until World War I broke out and I joined the American Army. Of course when I was released in

3

1918 I went on to further my education. During those days they didn't have the GI Bill of Rights. I went back and got a job as a gardener in a Staten Island Hospital in New York so I could take night courses in New York and sort of finish what you would call the equivalent of a high school education.

Sweeney: Didn't you at one time work in an auto mechanic shop and have to leave for reasons of health?

Heutte: Yes, I did. I sort of skipped that but my father, of course, being in that business he wanted me to follow in his footsteps. So I did for a short while. I took a job in a machine shop in Newark, New Jersey but the atmosphere there, and of course in those days such shops were what they call "sweat shops," and I contracted a sort of an advanced, a primary bit of consumption and the doctor told me that I'd have to go outdoors. So I went back into the business.

Sweeney: How was it that you came to Norfolk in 1936?

Heutte: Well that was quite a bit later you see. When I got released out in this hospital as a gardener. In order to get a complete education in horticulture in those days you had to go from one estate to another because they were practically the only training grounds. While you could go to Cornell or other schools of that type, I wasn't really for that because my technical background wasn't sufficient. So from 1918 to 1936 I worked around different private estates and I became head gardener. In those days a head gardener was the man that had charge of the place. And it was in 1936 that I came to Norfolk. At the estate that I was on in Southampton, Long Island, the H. H. Rogers estate,

4

closed up on account of the advice of the owner. So I decided to come out on my own and do landscape work, freelance landscaping and I landed in Virginia. I first went to Charlottesville because there was a lot of WPA going on in those days and I had gotten acquainted with a great landscape architect named Charles Gillette and he sort of took a liking to me and he wanted me to do some work for him. He was a great friend of the city manager of Norfolk at that time in 1936 and Norfolk was looking to develop its park system, which they had very little of in those days, and I was hired by the city manager to come here and develop the parks in Norfolk in 1936.

Sweeney: And that of course brought you to involvement with the WPA projects in Norfolk and I would like for you to tell me more about your duties as the Superintendent of the WPA projects on beautification and specifically your connection with the Azalea Gardens.

Heutte: The city of Norfolk, having very little money to spend on beautification, applied for a grant from WPA to develop the land they had into parks. Lafayette Park of course, which is Norfolk's oldest park, was in the being then but it was all run down. In that connection I was put in charge of Norfolk's park and also the WPA project to develop the parks. So in that connection the city manager and I, we looked for land in which we could develop sort of a facsimile of the Charleston Azalea Gardens. His idea was to sort to rival Charleston for its azaleas in those days. Between Mr. Thomas B. Thompson, the city manager, between he and I, we selected a piece of property which is now known as the Azalea Gardens and Botanical Garden also the airport. Because it was in

5

1937 they started developing a new airport and we thought that the connection at the airport around a park would be sort of unique and the land was suited for it and I had taken, in the meanwhile, a couple of trips to Charleston to get acquainted how the thing was run down there and we started the first development of the Azalea Gardens on 25 acres of land. That was the first start we had. By 1938 or '39 we expanded that to 100 acres and developed what was known and still is being known by many people as the Norfolk Azalea Gardens.

Sweeney: That land wasn't in Norfolk City then was it?

Heutte: No, that was in Princess Anne County. We developed it mostly with women because it was the area where a lot of spinach was being grown in those days, large spinach fields. And the labor was available because the whole market was out of kilter and the spinach business was on the wane and they were cutting down acreage and so on. So that's how we started first with about 50 women and then it increased to about 200 women.

Sweeney: These were Negro women?

Heutte: Yes, that's right, they did quite a good job. They did an excellent job because they were women of the soil, they liked plants, they liked soil, they liked to work on it and it made a wonderful combination.

Sweeney: Did some of those stay on to work there afterwards?

Heutte: Oh yes, quite a few did. There aren't any left. That was a long time ago.

Sweeney: Was there any problem about the fact that that land wasn't in Norfolk, but yet was going to be used by Norfolk?

6

Heutte: As far as the city manager and myself were concerned, it didn't concern us except that a lot of people couldn't see how we could develop a piece of land which was not even on city property. Well, it was city property. It belonged to the city.

Sweeney: Oh, it was city property?

Heutte: Yes, see it was part of the Norfolk watershed. See the Norfolk watershed at that time took in about 500 acres on which the airport and the gardens were located.

Sweeney: I see. That explains it. Were there any doubting Thomases that thought that you would never be able to develop it?

Heutte: Oh yes, a lot of them. There were a lot of people that thought it was money being thrown away because first of all, naturally in those days, it was ten miles from the city of Norfolk and it was really not until well the Chamber of Commerce done a great deal in those days by advertising it and so on and the National Geographic. I don't know if I ever told you about the National Geographic wrote quite a story about it, a ten page spread.

Sweeney: The next question I was going to ask was about the city managers. I am interested in your recollections of city manager Thomas Thompson and what kind of an administrator and person he was and also your views on Colonel Borland who succeeded him.

Heutte: There were two, of course, as people who are still living and recollect. They were two men of different temperament and different interests. City Manager Thompson was very much interested in tourists industry and how he could be built up. Colonel Borland took over after Mr. Thompson was ousted politically I guess it was, and he got the job. By that time WPA was on the wane and it

7

was then that the city itself had to take up the tab; where all that the United States government, the WPA was doing all this work you see, paying all these couple hundred women, and he couldn't see it and it was shortly thereafter that he, in preparing the annual budget, which my budget was based on what it would cost the city to run it and he didn't adhere to that and he said that he was going to close up the gardens rather than do that only he gave me a very token, a little, I forgot exactly what it was now, something like $5,000 a year to run the gardens which couldn't be done. So then I had to more or less set my standards that this would be the central park of Norfolk so to speak. I didn't agree with it and I resigned.

Sweeney: That was in 1945?

Heutte: Yes, yes. I resigned. The gardens had grown large enough and beautiful enough that the people that worked down there and knew the gardens, and when I say the people, I mean the people especially the citizens of Norfolk, got up in arms and that was more or less straightened out.

Sweeney: You withdrew your resignation?

Heutte: I withdrew my resignation, yes.

Sweeney: Did you feel the council was behind you but Borland wasn't?

Heutte: Oh yes. The council was behind me but Colonel Borland was not. But let me say, I want to emphasize this, that I know that Colonel Borland had his objectives. He was a very fine man, a very fine administrator except for that one thing. He didn't care too much about, I guess he couldn't see the future of parks in Norfolk or its part in the tourist business. It was straightened out.

8

Sweeney: One name I didn't list, down here which just occurred to me, you must have known the Mayor Joseph Wood. Do you have any recollections of him?

Heutte: I knew him very well.

Sweeney: Did he seem interested?

Heutte: Oh yes, he was very much interested. He was one of my first backers when I first came to Norfolk.

Sweeney: You became the Superintendent of Parks in 1937 and then they changed the title to be Superintendent of Parks and Forestry a couple of years later. What would you describe as your overall duties?

Heutte: I had enough training in park work and beautification work that the city should have not only parks but they should have beautiful trees. Up until that time the forestry end or this planting of trees was not so much emphasized and they gave me the job. The man who was forester tragically died. He was killed crossing over a street and the job finally was given over to me.

Sweeney: I would like to ask you some questions about the parks system in Norfolk. First, what were your ambitions for Lafayette Park which is popularly known as City Park and how did you go about achieving your goals?

Heutte: Up until that time Lafayette (City) Park was the only piece of land of 110 acres which was entirely devoted to planting and it was nice except that it had been neglected and I wanted to make that sort of the jewel of the city within the city because it was. The Azalea Gardens were not in the city and I worked to get the conservatory rebuilt and perhaps a lot of people don't recollect, but the Norfolk greenhouses or conservatory were built for the

9

Jamestown Exposition. But when I came in 1937 there was no glass left in them; they were all skeletonized. So that was rebuilt. Now incidentally, Colonel Borland was interested in that part of it. We rebuilt the City Park conservatory and I was very ambitious to make it into a botanical garden but then all of a sudden, we got to skip a little bit there, Mayor Duckworth, who's quite an administrator and very much interested; when he came into the picture he saw a different picture. He saw the Norfolk Botanical gardens because I was trying to make the city park a botanical garden and Azalea gardens. So he said well, we should have both and they should be in under one roof and he is really the man that started it. He and Mayor Martin got the money to do what has been done there since, the development of the buildings and more land.

Sweeney: How about the zoo, was the zoo there when you came?

Heutte: Yes, the zoo was there at the Lafayette Park but it was only a small zoo. Not having been trained in that phase of park work, I wanted to maintain it just as a children's zoo rather than what they have now, which is wonderful. That really was not developed. The present zoo was not developed until after I left the park as superintendent.

Sweeney: Could you tell me the story of how you planted the oaks in City Park?

Heutte: You mean the live oaks?

Sweeney: The live oaks.

Heutte: I wanted Lafayette Park to be a sort of landmark unto itself and I wasn't so particular that it should become a recreation area as

10

it has become. That's different people's opinion naturally. There were a couple of small nurseries in town here in Norfolk and they had small live oaks and they were going out of business. So the first lot of oaks that I planted there was a hundred. I bought a hundred small oaks and planted them all around the park there.

Sweeney: You kept on adding to it for a while?

Heutte: Yes. The Lafayette park is pretty well developed now, except as I say, you might say it is practically 75% recreation now but its still a nice park and it has some nice trees.

Sweeney: The newspaper gave the impression that you had planted acorns.

Heutte: Oh yes, acorns which I gathered up in Oceanview up in those sand hills there. Really the beginning of the good planting in Norfolk was that we developed a city nursery instead of relying on buying trees and so on. So back of Forest Lawn Cemetery, which was then only partially cemetery, we devoted about 50 acres into plantings of different shrubs and trees and among those we planted thousands of acorns. Now you see the live oaks are pretty well spread all over the place all over the town.

Sweeney: When you took over the job, what did you believe was the chief deficiency of the Norfolk park system?

Heutte: Organized beauty. They used to plant a flower bed here and a flower there. They didn't concentrate on specific areas that the public would like to gather around and see. More or less I was trying to promote each area or each section to do something which was a little different. It was a combination of those things and my background, having been trained under good people in that

11

art. I've never landscaped architect but I have worked with famous landscape architects and I studied it as much as I could.

Sweeney: The city seemed to be quite remiss in developing parks for its black citizens. I think there was one small one called Baraud Park or something like that. What were your thoughts on this matter, on trying to provide parks for the blacks in Norfolk?

Heutte: That's a hard question for me to answer because when I first came here, naturally we had total segregation. The black people were allowed in Lafayette Park but they had to adhere to their own facilities and so on and so forth. Now personally I was against that.

Sweeney: Were they allowed to go around the park or could they just go in one section?

Heutte: They could walk around the park. There was no restriction on that. But of course I had certain rules and regulations which were in the ordinances of the city of Norfolk that I had to uphold. So far as I'm concerned parks are for everybody not only for white people or yellow people or black people but they're for everybody. I worked towards that objective and I think the city has been very fair in keeping with the times naturally. Not only state but national laws. I'm not claiming any credit for it but I think that one of the reasons that we haven't had the upheaval and some of the unrest that has come from this thing in Norfolk, I don't think we've ever had anything to amount to anything is because it was well handled. As I say, I don't claim credit for it. I think the powers that be naturally had to adhere by certain rules which were national and statewide. I think that we gradually

12

melded into what it is today.

Sweeney: So then the blacks were able to go into Lafayette Park but they had separate facilities or no facilities?

Heutte: Up until, I forgot the exact year, but I would take a long shot and say 1950 that restrooms for each. That was gradually done away with. As the signs wore down we forgot to put them up again.

Sweeney: Where was Baraud Park?

Heutte: Baraud Park is located up on Chapel Street. On the north end of Chapel street there was a city dump. It was a very peculiar thing how it became a park. I was always interested in conservation and I couldn't see the waste of that material just being where it couldn't do any good so we decided to use that area eventually as a park and it was more or less sort of an unwritten law I guess even though it was for the Negroes. Now we developed this park and dumped stuff in there and leveled it off and had planted trees and shrubs created the first Negro or black community center there.

Sweeney: Okay that's all I have about parks. I read in one of the clippings that in 1947 you said you were opposed to charging admission to the Azalea Gardens, could you discuss the reasons why you took that position?

Heutte: I didn't think that any park should be set at a premium for anybody. I could understand, and of course, Mayor Duckworth made me the ultimatum unless we have a decent one we can't afford to do it without charging something. So we got together and the first admission charge that we charged (naturally we put up an entrance

13

gate) and we charged 25¢ per car not per person but per car. I guess you probably remember Mayor Duckworth, he was quite a brilliant man, I thought. He said we intend to spend up to a million dollars on this thing with buildings, roads, so on and we have to advertise the interest on these bonds. He said it would take about $40,000 a year to advertise these bonds, in those days of course, and I thought well it wasn't so bad in order to make that much at 25¢ a car, and we did. The figures I think, if I check back into the finances of the city, will show that the first year or two we made 20, 25, 30, $40,000 a year. But then of course we made these other improvements like putting a canal in there and charged for the boat rides and the train rides which was alright as far as I was concerned. I think that the charging, although it's in keeping with other botanical gardens, that was just my idea.

Sweeney: Now it's 50¢ per person. How do you feel about that? Do you think that's in line with the inflation?

Heutte: Well recently they have modified that. You see my idea, going back to that, is that I wasn't opposed to charging tourists, no I wasn't opposed to charging people who didn't live in the city of Norfolk, but I was opposed to the people who were actually building the gardens, which was the citizens of Norfolk through their taxes, should have to pay that high prices. I was all unaccepting it in the past. I wanted one of my ideas, they have a system in New York City, that if you are a citizen living in New York City, the city of New York has parks outside of New York City - way out to Montauk Point, and you can go to those parks

14

on a very low admission just by showing your driver's license, proof that you are a tax payer in New York. That was one way that I wanted to get around that but never did.

Sweeney: You foresaw the end of the streetcars on Hampton Boulevard and Granby Street and the possibility that this opened up for beautifying the streets. Could you tell me more about this feature of your work?

Heutte: Yes. I had of course read in the paper that they were going to do away with that. And of course I immediately visualized that this could be made into a beautiful parkway.

Sweeney: I should mention that street car traffic went down the middle of the street.

Heutte: That's right, they went right down the middle of the streets. That eventually took over and again, it would never have come to pass had it not been that the city itself had a plant nursery where they raise all those plants. 90% or maybe more than that of the trees and shrubs that are on Granby street and Hampton Boulevard today were raised on their own nursery. Very few plants were bought.

Sweeney: Who started that nursery?

Heutte: Well, I started that in 1937.

Sweeney: In those greenhouses you said that had been built at the time of the Jamestown Exposition?

Heutte: That's right, that's right.

Sweeney: Of course, recently some of that has been taken away over at Old Dominion University. I was quite disappointed to see that whole strip from Bolling Avenue down to 49th street torn up.

15

Has there been any other move to damage those parkways?

Heutte: I guess every once in a while, of course, according to the ever- changing of traffic patterns and so on, they have to alter those things. Talking about Old Dominion I, of course, was very much interested in that from the very beginning. When I came here in 1936 Dr. Hodges was in charge of it. Well, may be he doesn't appear so much in the history of the city of Norfolk. To me he was a great man. He and Mr. Thompson were great friends. They wanted to make Norfolk a key city of beauty. I planted most of the trees that are on the campus.

Sweeney: Oh really? I didn't know that.

Heutte: Yes.

Sweeney: He was known as a great lover of flowers and shrubs especially in what they call now the Williamsburg Campus, the older campus.

campus.

Sweeney: You planted those?

Heutte: I had nothing to do with that new expansion. Up till that, I had nothing to do with that mall there.

Sweeney: No but the older building?

Heutte: The older building.

Sweeney: Did Dr. Hodges ask you to do that?

Heutte: Yes, we cooperated. We had to pull little strings to get some of the things done, you know. We hired students and so on and so forth.

Sweeney: So he was really dedicated to beautifying the campus?

Heutte: Yes.

Sweeney: In 1955 you took a strong stand in favor of black citizens being

16

admitted to Seashore State Park. You wrote a letter to the editor of the paper, probably Pilot, which took considerable courage since you were a public employee. Would you comment on this matter back in '55 with the blacks and Seashore State Park?

Heutte: I'm glad you asked that question because it's a philosophy of mine that only through parks can you get that integration that is necessary to make people look at things in the same light. Seashore State Park for me, but I had nothing to do with it of course I saw a great opportunity there of being able to let people mingle, make a common ground. Of course, while I'm a citizen of Norfolk and I've always wanted to be, I didn't mind dividing my interest with other cities because I felt that it was through a unification of the people which I think is slowly coming about I guess pretty good, that we can begin to see those things in the same light.

Sweeney: Blacks were not allowed in there at all? They didn't ever have a section for them?

Heutte: I never knew them, I had nothing to do with them. I don't think they were educated that much to the fact that the beauty that was there. They didn't know about it. I thought it was a good way to get it started.

Sweeney: One other thing about Dean Hodges and the college. Do you remember any interesting anecdotes about Dean Hodges? We're about to compile a little volume on the college and it's fiftieth anniversary and I wondered if you had any specific recollection of any outstanding story in regard to Dean Hodges that might stick in your mind?

17

Heutte: When you come right down to it, Dean Hodges is possibly one of the most responsible for the starting of the Norfolk Azalea Gardens.

Sweeney: Really?

Heutte: Yes. Because, I think I said a few minutes ago, that I helped or planted most of the original campus and the way we done that, we didn't buy the trees. We went out on Norfolk city property, the reservoir. All those big oaks there, those willow oaks that are on the campus now, were dug up out of there and brought out there. Well anyway, I wasn't under any obligation to Dean Hodges or to the campus and all this was done, as I say coordinated. He had not much money to run the thing on, especially the beautification. So in 1937 he said that he would take me to Charleston Azalea Gardens to look those over and because he wanted to go down there himself and he engineered a trip which took us down there, free of cost to me, and, there it was when we saw those gardens he brought up the subject of Norfolk having its Azalea Gardens being a good friend of Tommy Thompson that was really the inspiration of the Azalea Gardens.

Sweeney: That's quite a story. Did you plant any azaleas out at the college?

Heutte: Yes. Those were some...the overflow of what we planted at the Azalea Gardens.

Sweeney: Were you the one who had the inspiration for the idea of the International Azalea Festival in Norfolk, was that your idea?

Heutte: No. That was not. Actually that was the Chamber of Commerce that started that. A very peculiar thing of it, of course I'm not saying that I didn't change my mind about it, but I was

18

more interested in making Norfolk the Crepe Myrtle city, the International Crepe Myrtle city. Because when I first came to Norfolk, where I'd come from up north they didn't grow crepe myrtles, and I thought that a plant that grew so well and so prolifically should be emphasized and I was more in for making this city the Crepe Myrtle city and the Crepe Myrtle Festival but it never went over. We had it two years incidentally; we had a Crepe Myrtle Festival.

Sweeney: Oh you did? I didn't realize. It didn't go over, or it was too late because it was the summer?

Heutte: Well, it was the summer, and of course it's hot too. They gave a lot of plausible reasons why. First, that you couldn't get bands in the summer, you know the school bands and so on and so forth. And its worked out alright, I think.

Sweeney: In 1958 the City Council made its first appropriation for the Norfolk Botanical Gardens which were dedicated in 1963. First of all, could you tell me why the idea of a Botanical Garden appealed to you so much?

Heutte: Well, I think that every city in deference to its citizens should have a place where plants can be grown, that they are adaptable to that section. And that's the main idea, that we have an area, and of course when you say that you got to have, up until we expanded into the Botanical Garden, the Azalea Garden was nothing but shade, you see it was all trees and so on. You could only plant the kinds of plants that would grow in the shade. I wanted to have some of each, of course, that's when the Norfolk airport expanded. It became a great opportunity, they took over. Up

19

until that time the Pennsylvania Railroad property owned a lot of that land.

Sweeney: Oh, the city took it over?

Heutte: The city took it over and they took it over more for the air space rather than the land itself and they left a hundred acres in there of swampy land and that's how I visualized that we could have, in that area, land that had plenty of sun and could grow plants that would grow well in the sun. Now in order to do that, of course, I had to drain it. It was 90% swamp in there. That's why the airport couldn't take it over. They just wanted it for air you know for

Sweeney: Air rights.

Heutte: Air rights. I conceived the idea of building a canal in the perimeter of all this land that would drain that whole area and in so doing I could use it for two purposes, drain the land and have a place for pleasure boats, for boats like they have today.

Sweeney: Your role in making the Botanical Garden a reality then was probably a fairly predominant role, wasn't it? Didn't you direct this whole thing?

Heutte: Oh yes. Sometimes I wonder how it was done, but it was done. As I say, I am not a landscape architect but I designed it. I had knowledge of plants alright and what would grow there. I saw that opportunity. Not only that but you see, I could see it was a vision that Mr. Thompson and I had, that we would be the only airport that would have a garden. Unfortunately, he didn't live long enough to see it true, but it came to pass. I think in all of the things that you accomplish in this world, you have to

20

have an inspiration, and I would say that Mr. Thompson was my inspiration.

Sweeney: He really had a real vision of the future of Norfolk?

Heutte: Yes. Because at one time while he was city manager, the city was much smaller not so many departments and divisions, and I talked of the beginning, when I first came to Norfolk. Mr. Thompson had an old model T Ford and I used to meet him in the morning. We used to take a ride around and I said to him one day, I said "You know Mr. Thompson, why couldn't Norfolk be the Venice of America? I mean we're all cut up with all these waterways and so on and if this land could be at least in part bulkheaded it'd make up much more valuable taxable real estate and you could have a canal." Well, its never come to that but its pretty well developed in that pattern you know.

Sweeney: Yes, it has made real progress toward that. I know you had ideas to get children interested in flowers at the Botanical Gardens. How did you go about this?

Heutte: Well, yes. I don't think that any thing of this importance or magnitude like the building of a park could be a success unless you interest the future generations into it. So I wanted to develop the Botanical Gardens into something that the children would enjoy too. Sort of by accident, yes it was an accident I guess you could call it, I have grandchildren that live in Washington, my son has five children. I happened to see on the table a book called The Land of Huckleberry Finn I got intrigued in that and I thought well if you could develop something in that order. That's how I first conceived the idea of having that

21

first development that we had there the boats where the children could go to Treasure Island. It was a success. Why it was discontinued I'll never know. We all have different ideas. My idea is that while a park or a park area designated to the people should, of course, be well maintained but I don't think that it should be done entirely as a revenue producing thing. I don't think that for instance, well I was reading with great interest about breeding these Arabian horses here in Norfolk. Well that is one of the first big things that they are going to do. The city is going to develop it because they think that will be a means of putting Norfolk on the map in certain areas. I think that Treasure Island was a great start in that direction but I had other ideas because Norfolk is all cut up with water.

Sweeney: Would you comment on the role of the garden clubs in Norfolk in supporting your plans for the improvement of life in Norfolk?

Heutte: Well I'm glad you asked that because I am very truthful in saying that were it not for the role of the garden clubs in Norfolk, the beauty of Norfolk would not be here today. They were the sponsors, they were the needlers, they were the ones that kept urging me on. I think that that is one of the greatest things that Norfolk had and still has is the interest of the garden clubs.

Sweeney: Was there any person or persons in particular who are outstanding in the garden clubs that you remember in the 40's or 50's?

Heutte: Oh yes. One of the great ladies of that part was Mrs. Albert Crosby, Dr. Crosby's wife. She was not only President of the Federation but she had a great deal of drive and she was really one of the first sponsors of the expansions of the parks.

22

Sweeney: What kind of research did you carry out at the Botanical Garden?

Heutte: Well, more or less the research was based on first the types of plants that would grow here. While many of the exotic plants, that is plants brought from the outside, would grow just as well and sometimes better than in a different place, different climate. That's what the purpose of the gardens themselves is to test them. We've tested hundreds of plants, hundreds of species 'of plants that haven't done well here. There is no use trying to grow things I've never believed in treating a plant so that it wouldn't respond on its own, that is it has to acclimate itself to the place in which you're going to grow it. There are enough plants, in fact there's many more plants that can be introduced in Norfolk which will eventually I guess providing people had that interest in mind. That's the real function of the Botanical Garden.

Sweeney: How did you acquire the statues by Moses Ezekiel for the Botanical Garden?

Heutte: That was one of the lucky incidents that I had in my life. The director of the museum in Norfolk at the time of, let's get back first to the collection of the Moses Ezekiel statues. See, they were originally in Washington and they had been broken up since the Museum was disbanded and some of those statues were in Richmond and the Museum director of Norfolk at that time, and I can't think of his name just right now, you see their heroic sizes you see, he was offered one of those statues by one of the people that owned part of that collection. At that time, the Museum was small and he said that he had been offered this beautiful statue and he thought it was too big for the grounds of the Museum but he said

23

he would be glad to go with me and look at it and see if the man would give it to the gardens instead. So we went to Richmond and this man had six of them all total in his garden, this small garden, so the first thing that I thought of was, of course, statuary in a garden, you just can't plunk statuary down and say this is a piece of statuary, you've got to build a garden around it. So by the time we got through talking to the owner of these statues we were in the development of the gardens at this time. I said that they'd fit beautifully if they were in a long vista, planted in a vista like they do in Europe like Versailles and so he said "yeah it'd be fine" but I said "you only have six of them how about the other five" and he said "well I know four that I think I can get. The other one is in Richmond with the Museum of Arts and I had nothing to do with that." But anyway making a long story short, it was through this interview that we got the - he said that he would give us the six statues that he had, try to get the other four because they were friends of his and he said "now the other one I don't think we will ever get." It did eventually get here and that was through the efforts of Colonel Hagan who is a friend of this man that owned, that was at the Museum. It was a great coincidence and of course as I say, I was a student of architecture and landscape architecture and I knew that a collection of statuary in a garden [was very beautiful].

Sweeney: Colonel Hagan played a role in bringing the eleventh statue to Norfolk?

Heutte: That's right. You asked me a while ago, a lot of people in Norfolk don't know this, those statues never cost the city of Norfolk

24

any money at all. It was all sponsored by the garden clubs of Norfolk. We made a deal with the monument man there to take them because it was quite an art to take those up without breaking them. Every one of those statues was sponsored by a garden club or through the garden clubs.

Sweeney: In 1964 a Landscape Design School began at the Botanical Gardens. Could you tell more about your involvement in this?

Heutte: My idea was trying to perpetuate more or less what I had started there. Like in every other field, things have changed. Most of the people who design gardens and who know gardens now are college graduates because they train. There is sort of a vacuum there between the person who is myself, you see I had never forgotten how I was trained and I wanted this school to perpetuate the idea of practical gardening, that is being trained under a practical method of digging trees and so on rather than having the whole 100% technical knowledge. You have to have some practical knowledge, and that's why I started this school here. There is another one, Sandy Hills Community College in North Carolina; I started another school down there.

Sweeney: The one here, is it still in existence?

Heutte: Oh yes.

Sweeney: Could you discuss the contribution that Mr. Wirt Winn made to the beautification of Norfolk?

Heutte: In the early days that I came to Norfolk he naturally, being in business, was interested in beautification. But it was not so much business with him. He was a man of great vision and a man who wanted to see the city grow into a beautiful city. When we

25

started the gardens, what we call the Azalea Gardens, in the Depression, of course, like everybody else, things weren't moving very fast commercially. He offered me plants, all kinds of plants, whatever I wanted in the nursery, whatever he couldn't sell especially large plants. The first plants that we got was a collection of 5,000 azaleas which he practically gave to the city except we paid his nursery for the moving, his labor and so on. Until he died he was always interested in the growth and the beautification of Norfolk. Not solely for what he could make out of it himself but what he could contribute.

Sweeney: After you retired from your municipal position in 1965 you remained active in your field of horticulture. Could you tell me what you did after your retirement?

Heutte: I was primarily interested in having (because I had accumulated so many friends and so many people liked me) to go into business. In fact, Mr. Winn's son offered me a job in his nursery and I went there for a year as a consultant but I had sort of an inspiration since I was a boy to be a writer. I didn't have the background to be a writer but I had certain specific knowledge of plants and how to assemble them. I felt that if I could get that together in some kind of a form that I could be of some help. That was really the reason that I kept this [house]. You see, we live here. We have two acres of highland which is, of course, a burden on me right now because I can't take care of it anymore. It's quite a chore to get it done. I'm trying to maintain this because it keeps my contacts with plants and people. As we were talking a while ago a man called me asking for information. Well, to me

26

it's a great privilege to be able to be recognized as an well not exactly as an expert but as someone who knows something about plants. The average people can come to me and look at what I grow see how it's growing and I think that's my greatest [joy] I owe a great deal to the citizens of Norfolk the way they've treated me. I'd like to keep that communication. I'd like to keep that contact with the people as a testimonial of my appreciation for what they've done for me.

Sweeney: So you wrote the book on gardening in the temperate zone?

Heutte: Yes, yes. That was my biggest practically my only book. I've written a lot of small books and booklets.

Sweeney: Which flowers and bushes and trees do you think have done the most for the beautification of Norfolk?

Heutte: I still believe that the crepe myrtle has contributed more for the simple reason that we are the northern edge of their limit of growth. It would grow up into Washington but nothing like we do here. I hope that they will build a tourist attraction and the beauty of Norfolk by incorporating more and more types of crepe myrtles. You see we haven't even scratched the surface. There are a lot of types of crepe myrtles that can be grown here. That's one. . . . I'm so interested in the downtown development. I'm interested because that's the roots of Norfolk. It's where it started. I think that what the merchants are trying to do down there (whether they will ever accomplish it I don't know) because this downtown redevelopment is of great interest across the country, but it's not an easy thing to do.

Sweeney: You often stated your belief that Norfolk would become the world

27

flower capital. I would like to ask you how you think Norfolk has done in the areas of beautification and recreation since you left your position back in 1965?

Heutte: I think it's made tremendous strides. I think the City Council has kept up its interest. They've done a lot, especially for recreation which is part of it. Naturally everybody's trained in a certain field. I wasn't trained in recreation per se. I was trained in beautification. Of course, they go hand in hand, but I think that there's so much that can still be done in that area.

Sweeney: What area do you think needs to be done the most in right now?

Heutte: Well, I would say the downtown. You see I have a sort of a mind picture that (Norfolk started around St. Paul's and so on) Maury High School was our first great school of Norfolk. From there south should be developed, the new Norfolk. I would like to see that portion (that's why I'm so interested in Ghent) and all of that downtown including the waterfront which they're trying very hard to do. I think these are all steps in the right direction. I think it will work out, the flower capital as I had visualized it for the simple reason we're in (I point out in my book) we're in such a geographic position on the Eastern Seaboard that we have very little competition. You go 25 miles north of here and you can't grow leanders for instance. Those are some of the exotic things that we have that we are capable of incorporating into our complex of beautification to be not only done but expanded upon.

Sweeney: Looking back over your long and distinguished career, what do you regard as your most outstanding achievement or achievements?

28

Heutte: Well, I would say that my ability to have been able to interest other people into that field is possibly the most that I've done.

Sweeney: Rather than any concrete achievements such as the Azalea Gardens or the botanical gardens?

Heutte: Well, no, because there building the Azalea Gardens, the Botanical Garden and other things. Naturally I had to have great assistance from other people. I mean I couldn't have built a building at the Botanical Garden if it had not been because the people wanted it. My own personal feeling is...how many relations with the normal complex of people in Norfolk is so great. I appreciate it very much.

Sweeney: Well, I appreciate this interview very much, Mr. Heutte. I think it will be a very valuable addition to the Archives.