Interviewer: This is an interview conducted with Mr. Aubrey P. Hunter of 132 Du Pont Circle in Norfolk. The interview is conducted by Joel Trammel for the Archives Department of the Old Dominion University. For thirty-two years, Mr. Hunter was an owner and operator of Hunter Brothers Moving and Storage Company in the city of Norfolk. The interview was conducted on December the twelfth nineteen seventy-eight at the home of Mr. Hunter.

Question: To begin our interview I would like for you to tell me a little bit about your growing up maybe as childhood, where you came from - farm or city, and maybe something about your family - how many children, maybe something about your parents' occupation or just give me a little bit about your background say before the age of twenty-one.

Answer: I was an orphan. My father died when I was a year old. My mother had a farm, a small farm and we lived on that as long as she stayed capable of keeping it. And in nineteen and twenty, she sold the farm and moved in with her daughters and I joined the Army. And I stayed there a year and I came out and went in the Marines and stayed there twelve years and then went into business for myself.

Question: What -- where were you born? Where was your home?

Answer: Fitzgerald, Georgia.

Question: Fitzgerald, Georgia?

A: Umm Hmm.

Q: I'm familiar with that place.

A: Are you?

Q: I've been down there a few times. That's, what, sort of peanut and cotton territory down through there?

A: No, Fitzgerald is a--well, they--they have peanuts, yeah, and tobacco and cotton. Cotton is the --was the-- in my day was the main product.

Q: The main crop of the South. I don't think it's any longer true that there is that much cotton grown in the South.

A: Well no, it's a poor crop now. Very little cotton grown. And very little sales for cotton. But it was a tremendous money product when I was a boy.

Q: So many synthetic products nowadays that's replaced cotton. You mentioned your sisters -- were you an only --only son, or--

A: No, there was two boys and four girls.

Q: Four girls. Well how did you happen to end up in Norfolk then? This the result of your military life, or --

A: No. Well, yes and no I'd say. My brother and I were both in the Marines together. And we were discharged the first time in Norfolk Naval Shipyard. And he married a Norfolk girl and he stayed here, but I went from there, when I got out of the Marines the first time, I went to Florida and went on the Police Force. And then I stayed on that for a while and then I got home safe from the Marines so I got back to Norfolk and joined the Marines again. Well, I really joined 'em in Georgia-- they--they sent me the papers in Georgia and I joined there and then came to Atlanta and was sworn in. And then came back to Norfolk. And then stayed here awhile and then I went to Nicaragua, in that campaign down there. And I came back to--

Q: Now was this in the Civil War? In Nicaragua.

A: Yeah. With Sandino

Q: Right. When was this in 1930?

A: 1927-28

Q: 27-28. Did you see combat there or?

A: One engagement.

Q: You were involved in one engagement there in Nicaragua. What was --what was the idea behind the fighting there? I'm not too familiar with it.

A: It was to keep Sandino from overthrowing the government. He was a --a bandit.

Q: Right. This was before the Somoza regime got started.

A: Oh, yeah. Somoza wasn't even thought of then.

Q: Right. We hear a lot about Somoza nowadays. But this is before his time.

A: Well, the same group is fightin' there now as was then. But Sandino has later, you know, later died. But I don't remember just what did happen but the Marines were there for several years.

Q: Now, were they dispatched by the United States government?

A: Uh-huh. Yeah.

Q: Okay I'm not exactly familiar with that --that aspect. I guess that's when we were doing some of Teddy Roosevelt's "walk softly, carry a big stick" trying to _______________--

A: Oh well that was after Teddy Roosevelt.

Q: Right but I mean his policy was to keep an eye on South America.

A: It was the Monroe Doctrine, see.

Q: Right. Keep an eye on South America. Right.

A: The Monroe Doctrine was to not let any nation outside of this hemisphere --hemisphere come into this hemisphere. So the United States Government kept troops stationed in places where --where there was trouble.

Q: How long were you in Nicaragua?

A: I was over there in, about eighteen months.

Q: About eighteen months. And there was real combat going on at the time?

A: Oh yeah. There was a lot of people killed.

Q: So you were involved in some of the fighting.

A: I was never wounded but there were a lot of people killed.

Q: Okay. After then did you come back to the United States?

A: Yeah. I came back to the United States in 1929. And went through the Marines Automobile School in Philadelphia. Graduated as a mechanic, went to Parris Island. (Laughs)

Q: I'm familiar with Parris Island.

A: Well, I trained in Parris Island to start with.

Q: Parris Island has quite a reputation for making good--

A: Well I trained there.

Q: --tough men.

A: I went back there and stayed until they had another kind of uprising in China. Then I went to --well, I went first to Guam.

Q: Now this would have been what 1932, 33?

A: 30's. 1931.

Q: 1931. Boxer Rebellion?

A: No. It was not that. The Boxer Rebellion was nineteen hundred and three or four.

Q: That's right. That's right.

A: This was-- let's see, what was the main-- Japan was trying to get a hold into --into China.

Q: Right. It was a prelude to World War II. Fighting over, what Manchuria or some of the --

A: Peking and Manchuria were having trouble and --

Q: Right.

A: --but I was stationed in Shanghai when I got there, but I went to Guam first. I was on the _______ in Guam for awhile. For about a year.

Q: So it sounds like you really hit some activity there even --even between the two wars.

A: Well, no combat.

Q: Right. But at least…

A: But we kept moving around. I traveled fifty-two thousand miles the last four years I was in the Marines.

Q: And then you left the Marines in when?

A: Thirty-four.

Q: 1934. And you came back to Norfolk at that time?

A: I came back to Norfolk. My brother was still here, see.

Q: Right.

A: And --reason I went --well, he was working for the David Pender Grocery Company. And I went on there as extra help for a while.

Q: Now was this a grocery store or--

A: A grocery store, yeah. Then, it was just a small grocery store, about two or three stores.

Q: Uh huh.

A: But that is now what is Big Star, see, and Colonial.

Q: Oh, I didn't know that.

A: Yeah.

Q: And it was David Bender?

A: David Pender.

Q: Oh, Pender. David Pender.

A: Ah, he sold out to Colonial Stores. Then Colonial Stores went into Big Stars.

Q: Big Star.

A: But it really, really started with David Pender. He had three or four stores.

Q: So you were in the grocery business then in the thirties?

A: Well, most of that time I was in the garage for the David Pender Grocery Company. But my brother was in the warehouse.

Q: They maintained a fleet of trucks?

A: Yeah.

Q: Was home delivery prominent at that time in the grocery business?

A: No, uh-uh. The --the trucks were only used to carry supplies to the stores.

Q: Right to the stores. So you were involved in the mechanic part of that then.

A: Uh-huh. Up to the--

Q: So you were an example of the training in the military turning into a vocation there for a while.

A: Well it helped some. It really did.

Q: Right. That's one of their selling points today, I think, is that you can come in and learn a trade and--

A: Well it was-- it was then.

Q: And so that was-- that's what you were-- what you were doing then.

A: I probably have seen a lot of things and learned a lot of things I would'a never have learned otherwise.

Q: Right. That's one thing I missed out on. I've never been in service.

A: Never have been.

Q: So I-- I'm sure I missed out on some travel as well as some --some other fringe benefits.

A: Well, I'm sure I wouldn't have got into travel. (Laughs)

Q: You wouldn't have made it to China without the Marines would you?

A: No. (Laughs)

Q: Well, that sounds good. Okay, after the grocery business then you went into-- is that when you and your brother-- did you organize together or did you follow him?

A: Ah no, we really went in-- well, he s--we started together. But I didn't go in with him for, say, six or seven months. But we both went to work for-- let's see-- he quit the Colonial Store, and I did, and went to work for Tidewater Transfer. Which was a delivery outfit for the A&P Grocery companies. And we stayed with them until nineteen and thirty-seven, he-- see I got married in '36. He wanted to buy a truck and go in the hauling business, local hauling business. And I assisted him in getting the truck to go in and things. Then in 1938 his business weren't real good, he needed help so I bought half of his business out of _________.

Q: And that's when Hunter Brothers Transfer started __________

A: Well, no, it didn't start then. We was known as Hunter Brothers but we didn't get into the Directory right then.

Q: Right.

A: But in nineteen and forty-- let's see-- in nineteen and forty, he decided to sell out to me and go ___________ Ammunition Depot in the Army.

Q: Umm Hmm.

A: That's over there on the Portsmouth side.

Q: Right.

A: Well, he finally made Superintendent over there. And I kept the business as Hunter Brothers, see. But then I-- put-- had the name-- we already had the name Hunter Brothers. But we got in the Directory then. Hunter Brothers. It was forty or forty-one.

Q: So from about 1940 it was really your business then.

A: Well from 1940, it was my business.

Q: 1941. And when did you retire from this operation or this business?

A: 1972.

Q: '72. Did you sell out or?

A: Yeah. Sold out.

Q: Sold out. Well, could you tell me maybe a couple of interesting stories or some things that happened about your dealing with-- how-- at the beginning of the Depression when you went in-- into business, or rather toward the end of the Depression, how did a --a young person aspiring to go into business was it easy or did--

A: No it was tough.

Q: Was it a difficult time or--

A: It was hard. Really tough. There were many days that you didn't do anything. And you had a hard time making ends meet but the Lord helped me. I might as well put this in because this is _______. The Lord told me one Sunday-- I mean times were bad -- he said, "Son, when you make a dollar put away a dime for me."

Q: Right.

A: And I started the next morning. The first job I got that day when I got paid and everything was cash you, know, there was no credit.

Q: Right.

A: When I got paid, I got the money changed and take His tenth out and put it in my left pocket. That was His pocket.

Q: Right.

A: And I never failed to do that. Oh, of course I quit putting it in the pocket. But I still pay tithes.

Q: Right.

A: From then on and I still do today. I still pay tithes. And I find that is the greatest privilege that the human can have is to pay tithes to God.

Q: Well that's-- that's rightfully what belongs to Him.

A: Yeah, that's right.

Q: And He does bless those who--

A: Who pay.

Q: Who follow.

A: That's right.

Q: --who follow His commandments, that's right.

A: Yes. So, that was the-- one of the greatest events in my life.

Q: Right.

A: And-- I don't know whether this will be interesting or not. It came one Monday here in Norfolk. My wife was a nurse, you know. Registered Nurse. And she was working with the Lee Memorial Hospital at the time. But one Monday there came the heaviest rain that I have ever seen in Norfolk. It was tremendous. And the cars were drowning out all over the place. Buses and-- but I got home all right. We were living in-- on Maryland Avenue in Colonial Place. And I got home and I decided well, since I had seen so many buses-- you know she was riding the bus, we didn't have a car-- that she maybe wouldn't be able to get home so I better go get her. So I got in the truck, and going down Colonial Avenue at 21st Street, I met a bus, and we were both pushing up water. Water was up over our running boards. And we met a bus and we drownded each other out. (Laughs) And it was still raining so I couldn't get out to wipe off the spark plugs and the coil and the condenser and all that.

Q: Right.

A: So, I said, "Lord," I said, "I believe you have power to start this truck." And-- I stepped on the starter and it didn't do a thing. It just ground. And I said, "Well, where is the Lord God Almighty--Almighty?" I stepped on that starter and she kicked right off. And I went over and got my wife and carried two or three other nurses home and brought her home with me. So things like that, I mean, may not be of any--

Q: Right. That's, well that's--

A: But that really-- that really happened to me.

Q: Right.

A: And another time that the Lord helped me in-- with that-- even with that same truck. I'd made a trip to Richmond. And coming back the head gasket blew on the engine and drownded out three cylinders on the truck. And three cylinders _______, I mean-- that just wasn't enough power, see. Then, there was nowhere to have it fixed. And I said, "Lord, I believe you can help me get back to Norfolk." I stepped on that starter and she kicked off again and I came to Norfolk about 40 or 50 mile an hour. I got to Norfolk and pulled into the garage where I had my work done, to see what they all had to say, to see what it was. And so-- but really-- the Depression ______________ worked in a very small scale, it was small. But the most money, good money, that I ever made in business was in 1941-42. I moved every refrigerator that would move in Norfolk locally. And I made more money that year, good money, than I ever made before.

Q: Now did you do a lot of household moving?

A: Oh, yeah. That was the main thing.

Q: Did you haul for comp-- for other people?

A: No, I moved people.

Q: You did household moving.

A: Yeah. But then back in '40-'41, in startin' I would move any kind of business I could get, see.

Q: Right. Did you operate more than one truck?

A: Three. We started with three. Then the war came on and they froze a truck, and too, _____________, my brother sold out to me and I couldn't get help for nothin'. Everybody was going into the Army, then, see.

Q: Right.

A: And I bought the last GMC truck that was the size I wanted that was sold in Norfolk.

Q: Before the war started?

A: Before they froze 'em.

Q: Right. So you operated that truck all during the war then?

A: Seven years. And traded it back in for another GMC truck with the same tires it came with.

Q: Well that's unusual. Did-- was this one of the big van-type trucks or--

A: Yeah. It was a moving truck.

Q: Right. Big-size truck. I guess you found that the influx of people moving in here because of the war, then, was really a benefit to your business.

A: Oh, it was tremendous. But you know there's a lot of moving people in Norfolk. That's big business, moving. And you have to have a good name, and I established a good name. And competition _____ --I did long distance for a while but 1948 I quit that, see.

Q: So you mostly just did local moving here?

A: Local.

Q: Local moving here. You had people who helped you as far as packing and--

A: Well, I kept a crew all the time. Yeah.

Q: You kept a crew working with you.

A: They've all died now except one, so far as I know. Let's see, Richard died year before last and Rubin died about … I think he died about two years before I retired and Oscar may be still living. I haven't seen him in a good while but as far as I know he's still living. But I kept a crew all the time. Wherever I went I carried the crew with me.

Q: Okay now after the war what did this do to your business? Did it slow down? Or was you able to pick up?

A: No, no. I never slowed down.

Q: So even after the moving of the war you still kept right on moving with it.

A: And kept getting better all the time.

Q: Do you feel like that-- the war itself was a real boom to the American economy? Is it really what brought us out of the Depression?

A: Yeah. I would say that was a big help. Yeah.

Q: Well, I've heard various scholars and others say that --that without World War II we would have taken several more years to completely recover.

A: Well, that --that was not necessary. To have a war to create prosperity --that's not necessary.

Q: Right.

A: But, rea-- that really did happen.

Q: It did bring us out as far as that particular time was concerned.

A: Right. Things were really tough before the war and they got better all the time. Of course, the government is the biggest spender in the world.

Q: Right.

A: In this country I would say.

Q: Right.

A: And as long as they are spending, things are going to be very nice. Of course I didn't have too much involvement with the Depression up until nineteen and thirty-eight when I --well, I got out of the Marines '34. And then I got involved in trying to get a job and moving around. It was real tough and then on until 1940. But 1940 things begin to move.

Q: What-- what is your impression of Norfolk during the war. How did the great influx of the Military affect the city of Norfolk itself as far as the character of the city. Did it bring more vices and along with the more people or could you tell that much difference? I'm not-- from what I've talked to people who have been around here a long time it seems like the face of Norfolk really changed in the forties. What would be your--

A: No, __________ vice. Norfolk has always been a naval and military city.

Q: Right.

A: It's always been that way. And wherever there is Military occupation there's gonna be vice. Wherever, it doesn't matter where it is. The majority of the servicemen, this is saying strictly the majority, are looking only for two things: wine, women and ________.

Q: Well, they're away from home and families.

A: Course that _______________ be wrong, but that's ___________.

Q: No, no that's part of the, I think, part of the reason.

A: And so the cities cater to that, you know.

Q: Right

A: And Norfolk did the sa-- did that, and I don't know that the war made it any worse than it would have been otherwise. But, as long as it-- it's always been a-- evil city. But, it's-- still I'd rather live here than any place I know of.

Q: Well, I'm very fond of Norfolk in the time that I've been here. I've heard an awful lot about East Main Street and the Strip on Hampton Boulevard and maybe Ocean View and even though I know there are still various sections in Norfolk it is nothing compared to what it was say thirty years ago.

A: Well it's not-- it's not segregated now.

Q: Right

A: See the evil is still here just as bad as it ever was. But it is not segregated.

Q: It's just scattered all over town.

A: It's scattered all over town. Now see, then there was Main Street and after Main Street it was this Naval Strip.

Q: Right. Out near Hampton Boulevard--

A: Hampton Boulevard.

Q: --and then down Ocean View.

A: That's right. And Ocean View. And you-- and you find that same problem anywhere in town now, I mean, it's still here. There's no difference. See, unless the Lord gets in your heart, there'll be no changin' the vice.

Q: Right. So now it's just not as concentrated as it was at one time on East Main Street and all.

A: No, it's not segregated.

Q: Right. But there's-- it's still to be found if you want-- if you want to find it.

A: (Laughs) If you're looking for it, which people are--

Q: Right.

A: Well they-- they have no trouble finding it.

Q: Right.

A: And vice is on the upward trend, it's not going down.

Q: Well, I think that's-- that's true of the trend of the world is that things will wax worse and worse as time goes on.

A: M-m-m that's what the Bible teaches.

Q: Right. It-- it'll-- it'll certainly not improve. Another cou-- several more things came to mind as we were talking. How about the face of Norfolk? How can you see as far as redevelopment and all-- Do you think the mass destruction of-- of Norfolk that occurred in the early fifties through the Norfolk Housing and Redevelopment Authority was justifiable or was it really necessary. I know I've heard that a lot of historic sites were torn down and that whole neighborhoods were just wiped out. I believe Norfolk was the first city in the United States to gain urban redevelopment money or to gain a substantial sum back in the early fifties.

A. Well, the-- the face has changed considerably, yeah. When I first came to Norfolk it was a-- it was a small town. But, it was, you know, all the business was downtown.

Q: Right.

A: There was no out bu-- outside business. Everything in the business line was accomplished in the area downtown, from the waterfront to, say, Princess Anne Road. But now, it's-- that is done away with more or less and everything is going urban, see.

Q: It's very-- very deteriorating as far as--

A: Oh, I should say.

Q: The downtown area.

A: Well, you know, my view when they started to tear down and with intention to rebuild they tore down too fast. They didn't rebuild as they went along.

Q: Right.

A: The downtown would be far better off now if they had not have changed it so fast. I mean if they'd 'a rebuilt as they went along. They'd have been fine now.

Q: Right.

A: They had several landlords. Like, for instance, Schwartz Department Store covered the best part of two blocks. And people could go in that store and buy anything in the merchandise that they wanted to, in that one store.

Q: Right.

A: They didn't have to go all over town.

Q: Where was it located?

A: It was on Plume-- Bank and Main.

Q: So it was right downtown, then.

A: Uh-huh. It was right in the middle of downtown and it was one of the finest stores in the city. I mean, well, I would say it was the finest store in the city.

Q: How long has it been gone?

A: Oh, it's been gone a good long time.

Q: Since back in the fifties?

A: Let's see now. I disremember the year they tore it down. But it was right along towards the latter part of the tearin' down of downtown.

Q: Right. When they tore down so much there around the old city hall and MacArthur Memorial.

A: You know where the current library is now?

Q: Yes.

A: My office used to be right there.

Q: Oh, really?

A: Yeah.

Q: So that's where your business was?

A: Well I was there-- let's see how long-- I was there eight years. Right there where the library is right now.

Q: Yeah, I know where you're talking about. Now what all sat there across say from between the library and Scope? That wide area there-- that's just vacant lots now. What used to be there?

A: Oh, it was all stores and houses.

Q: But it was business as well as residential?

A: Yeah. Mm-mm.

Q: And that was wiped out in the fifties I believe or sixties, early sixties, somewhere along in there?

A: Well, they really-- they really started a little bit earlier than that. Let me see. Not-- not earlier than fifty, no-- but the beginning was in the latter fifties.

Q: One thing that has puzzled me is the dividing line of-- is it Colley Avenue up through Ghent where on one side everything is just wiped out from block and block. And then on the other side-- is it Colley or Colonial?

A: That's Colonial.

Q: Colonial, then. Right. And the other side is big, beautiful homes. Was there that much difference in what has been torn down and what has been left? Some of the homes that are left there are just beautiful homes.

A: Well they were-- they were real nice. I used to live at 1207 Colonial Avenue and that's a big home there and all of those are fine homes and it'd be a shame to tear 'em down. It really would.

Q: Right. But were they that-- were they deteriorated that bad in the area that they did tear down that they just couldn't save them?

A: Well no not all were I don't think. I think they tore down some for convenience sake. And, too, between Colley and Hampton Boulevard was Atlantic City, you know. And that was all small bungalow-type houses that people lived in. And that was all torn down at one time. That was along in the first of the fifties, I guess.

Q: Now what area is this. Now is that where the hospital is along through there?

A: Along in that area, yeah. Well, the hospital- -

Q: It's closer to town.

A: It's-- let's see-- yeah, it would be between the hospital and--

Q: And town. Down near the Hague, maybe, area down through there?

A: No, that's west, that's--

Q: Or am I too far?

A: That's Ghent. No, it's further over than that.

Q: It's further over. Oh all the way over toward where the Trailways Bu-- the big bus terminal is now.

A: Yeah, back in there. Yeah, the Greyhound Bus Terminal.

Q: Right. Going toward Midtown Tunnel and all of that area.

A: Yeah. Yeah.

Q: But that was--

A: That was known as Atlantic City.

Q: Well I hadn't heard that term before. I didn't know that. Was it a blighted area or--

A: It wasn't blighted, but the really-- the city was looking for some way to, I guess, to spend its money I don't know.

Q: Yeah.

A: Well they wanted to, you know, people wanted to move out. Well really '53 and '54 was the beginning of the-- the trouble, see.

Q: The real--

A: Whenever the Supreme Court passed the Civil Rights Bill.

Q: Now was this another real boom to your building-- to move all these people out, or to your business, rather?

A: Well, I moved a lot of 'em. Yeah.

Q: Moved a lot of 'em?

A: But see they-- they run that different than a local move job. See, if-- if the redevelopment housing company had to replace or move the people that they take the house from or bought the house from-- they didn't take it they bought 'em-- they moved 'em wherever they were going in the city or anywhere they were going to, see.

Q: So they moved them themselves then?

A: So we had to bid on the ____.

Q: Oooooh.

A: So, any job that I-- if I wanted the job then the redevelopment paid me. The people didn't pay me.

Q: Right. Did this-- did you get quite a bit of business from this type dealing?

A: Oh, I got a lot of business yeah. And then it became political and then I got out.

Q: Oh. Seems like things have a way of getting so under the table sometimes.

A: They do, right.

Q: Mm-mm

A: Well, the way they did this … I even told the-- the local government, I said I wouldn't bid on it anymore. See, they'd let you bid on a job, they'd get you to bid on it.

Q: Mm-mm.

A: And if you won it-- if you won the bid-- if you got the bid - they would give the customer the money, and that was the end of _________, and let him get whoever he wanted to-- or her get whoever they wanted to move.

Q: Yeah.

A: But, you see you just lost your time going to look at the furniture and bid on it.

Q: Or make a decision. Right.

A: Uh-huh. And then you didn't get the job after all. Unless they particularly wanted you. So I told them I wouldn't deal with it anymore.

Q: Has the area down near Church Street and that area-- has that always been a black area in your memory, or--

A: Yeah, it's always been colored.

Q: It's down near-- right near town.

A: All of that is the colored section.

Q: Right.

A: Always been colored as far as I can remember.

Q: As far as you can remember back in the Church Street area and Tidewater Drive down, you know, that lower part of the area down right near Main.

A: Well, Tidewater Drive wasn't in-- in Nor-- in--

Q: Near Ruffner Junior High School in that area?

A: No, Tidewater was known as Chapel Street then.

Q: Oh, was it? I didn't know that. And say over near Brambleton all the way toward Shipyard?

A: Brambleton was all-- no from Brambleton from-- Church on-- on to Park Avenue was all white people.

Q: Oh, really? But the Church area on back toward town was black?

A: Was colored, yeah.

Q: How about this Atlantic City area? What was it like?

A: It was all white.

Q: It was all white over in that area?

A: Yeah. But the Civil Rights Movement changed all that, see.

Q: Well, I know in-- today in Norfolk and having-- going through your moving experience, there is not a section of Norfolk anywhere that I know of today that is not integrated at least to some extent.

A: No, it is all--

Q: Whether it be Ghent or--

A: Anywhere.

Q: Or just anywhere you want to go out to the airport or anywhere.

A: Well, you see the law says that you can move anywhere you want.

Q: Anywhere. Right.

A: Well, that's the law.

Q: Right.

A: Well really there's never been any such a thing as-- that you couldn't move anywhere you wanted to if you had the money, see.

Q: Right.

A: If the colored person had the money they could have moved anywhere they want to anyhow.

Q: What would-- what was the boundaries of the old colored area say back before the '54 Supreme Court decision back, say, the late forties and early fifties. Were they found just in the downtow-- near the downtown area or--

A: (Coughs) No. They got Titustown. That's always been a colored area.

Q: Okay that was out off Little Creek Road?

A: Yeah. That's-- that's always been colored. And all the downtown was colored, that is the east side.

Q: Right.

A: Let me see. Most anywhere that you came into Norfolk you had to come through colored neighborhood. Most anywhere.

Q: The influx out Virginia Beach Boulevard beyond Booker T. Washington High School and also up, even into Colonial Place and that area-- that has been since 1954 hasn't it?

A: Yeah.

Side One Tape ends.

Side Two begins.

Q: Okay, we were talking about some of the-- the spread of the different races. I notice these old homes up --say from Twenty-eighth - Thirtieth Street on up north, going into Colonial Place and some of that area and all of 'em are just a few blocks away from here it's just now it's just all black.

A: Yeah, well that was all colored 'til last year.

Q: All white.

A: I mean all white.

Q: Until just what say after '54.

A: It started going down after '54.

Q: Well now, has --has Berkley always been black.

A: Always been black.

Q: It's always been black. Mostly over in that area.

A: That is, the majority of it.

Q: Right. The majority of it. I know, I believe Douglas MacArthur's mother was born in Berkley. 'Course that would have been a hundred years ago.

A: Yeah, well, where she was born was a white section.

Q: Was a white area over in that area.

A: But you take in --from Liberty Street-- no, Berkley wasn't always black either. No. Berkley used to be a white section.

Q: Yeah. I'm not that familiar with Berkley. I've only been over there a couple of times.

A: But, it --it chan-- it started changing faster than the rest of the city did.

Q: Right. Norfolk seems to be something like close to fifty-percent black now. Was it-- it hasn't always been that --that percentage, has it?

A: No, uh-uh. There are more blacks now in Norfolk than there has ever been before.

Q: Do you have any opinion as to why? Are they coming in from other places or just the reproducing of the black race or--

A: Well I would say both. They repro-- reproduce faster than the white people.

Q: And then they also may be looking for shipyard jobs or maybe government employment. Since the government seems to cater to the black somewhat.

A: You know, the-- most of the people in the world are afraid of overpopulation.

Q: Right.

A: But the world will never be overpopulated, see. It's only the cities. They became overpopulated.

Q: Right. Right.

A: But that's because people rush into the city looking for--

Q: Looking for a job.

A: --an easy way to make a living.

Q: Right. Influx of--

A: See in my day-- when I was a boy-- farming was the big product of this country. Farming, you know.

Q: Right. Right.

A: And now, see, when the war started the government hired all the farmers, see. And give them another job, so they didn't want to go back to the farm. And the cities are filled up with people looking for jobs.

Q: Right. That's true. Has the shipping business always been as big as it is now here. Or pretty much so maybe in accordance to the population or in percentage-wise to the population.

A: No it hasn't always been that good.

Q: A lot of people rely on the Shipyard I know what--

A: Well, the shipyards are-- well, I would say, have improved considerable since the forties.

Q: Right. But it's sorta' always been a good place to work, though.

A: Well you could always find something to do.

Q: Always --always been a good place to work.

A: Let's see. The Naval Base is the largest Naval facility in the world.

Q: Right.

A: And it's always been in this section. It's always been here so this has always been a Naval town. And the na-- and the town has always, you know, reacted to the service. You know, I mean it's always been--

Q: Sort of geared to the service without questions.

A: That's right, yeah. Well the biggest payroll here is the Navy payroll.

Q: Right.

A: And then this Norfolk Shipping and Drydock Company was a small company until just the last few years. It really is going places.

Q: Now it's not as large as Newport News, I don't believe.

A: No, uh-uh.

Q: But it still-- still is a good size operation.

A: Well, they handle the big ships, you know, they just moved in a thousand-foot dry-dock just the other day.

Q: Right. Right. Just the other day. Right.

A: Well, my wife worked there twenty-five years.

Q: Oh, really?

A: Yeah. She retired from there.

Q: I didn't know that.

A: Mm-Mm.

Q: In thinking also about the building up of Norfolk, it seems to me like the-- the center of Norfolk commerce-wise or the economic center would probably be somewhere in the Military Circle area.

A: Now?

Q: Now. Maybe tying in the Virginia Beach area and also the-- the, you know, the Norfolk side of people moving out-- do you seem to agree with that-- that maybe the economic center of Norfolk is sort of in that area now and with the growth of Virginia Beach and the-- would I be right to say the white flight to Virginia Beach to a certain extent?

A: Well, really I don't know.

Q: 'Course your banking is still downtown.

A: Downtown.

Q: And your insurance--

A: That's the banking center ??????.

Q: Right. But your commerce, your buying and selling.

A: Well, the mercantile stores--

Q: Right.

A: --are most have moved out.

Q: Seems like Little Creek Road and Military Highway and Virginia Beach Boulevard and that area seems to be--

A: Well, Virginia Beach Boulevard is an influx of businesses.

Q: Right.

A: I think there are five big automobile agencies right there in the middle.

Q: Right on Military Highway, right, and Virginia Beach Boulevard both.

A: So, that's more or less the dividing line.

Q: A lot of your companies have moved off 21st Street.

A: Yeah, 21st and 15th

Q: I believe that used to be the automobile center of Norfolk, was 21st Street.

A: That's right.

Q: And a lot of them moved out into that area.

A: And they-- I would say that the Twenty-fir-- I mean Military Highway is a dividing line between the two businesses of Virginia Beach and Norfolk.

Q: Speaking of Virginia Beach and Norfolk brings something else to my mind. You were here and probably experienced the moves and the transition. Do you think the abolishment of Norfolk County into Norfolk city itself and maybe the-- the demesne(?) of Princess Anne County into the City of Virginia Beach and the consolidation of the governments-- was that a good idea? Did that--

A: Well, Norfolk County hasn't been abolished.

Q: Well, but it's-- it's Norfolk city all together now. It's not-- it's-- it's not really Norfolk Public County anymore.

A: The old-- I understand, now, I understand.

Q: Right. In other words we don't pay county and city taxes both, it's just city taxes now.

A: Well, then-- you didn't pay county and city taxes then.

Q: Well, in-- in South Carolina and Tennessee you do.

A: Well, no, if you live in Norfolk you pay the taxes of Norfolk.

Q: Okay, well, I-- I-- I stand to be corrected on that.

A: Yeah. I don't-- I didn't know, now that's a new one on me. I didn't know that they had abolished the county. I didn't think-- I didn't think they'd call it all the city--

Q: Well, I was just-- I know--

A: Yeah, see, Norfolk is in Norfolk County.

Q: Right. But if you look in-- in your list of counties in a book of counties of Virginia there's no Norfolk County listed or Princess Anne County.

A: Mm-mm. Well, Princess Anne County is Virginia Beach.

Q: Right, but it's the City of Virginia Beach and the City of Norfolk.

A: That's right. I see what you mean. I guess that's right.

Q: And I believe over near Suffolk, wasn't it Nansemond County or something that was abolished.

A: Now it is--

Q: It's just the City of Suffolk.

A: City of Nansemond.

Q: Right, and the city of Suffolk-- over in that area…

A: Let's see. There's Portsmouth and then Suffolk there.

Q: Right.

A: That's right. Yeah. That's true.

Q: So they have abolished some of the counties. I know that's been a big thing in-- in some of the Southern cities is to-- the duplication of government-- in some places where you would have, like, a mayor and then you would also have maybe a-- a president of the council of-- of the county-- a county council that would be basically doing the same thing but yet drawing two tremendous salaries.

A: Mm-mm. I see.

Q: And the move has been to-- in certain areas, for instance Nashville Tennessee, for instance. They call theirs Metro Government.

A: That's right.

Q: And there is no longer a Davidson County which was the county seat. It's all the City of-- of Nashville.

A: Mm-mm.

Q: And rather than having a county head of government and a city head of government it's all the-- the Metro Mayor now. And I was under the impression that that's what they had done in Norfolk.

A: Well, maybe they have. But I didn't know that.

Q: It's--

A: Now, I'm not too--

Q: --that would have been before my time but I was-- I was under the impression that--

A: Well, now, I know--

Q: --that Norfolk County no longer existed. That it was the City of Norfolk now.

A: Oh-h-h …

Q: For instance--

A: Look on your Division of Motor Vehicle registration card.

Q: Right. Okay.

A: It-- it-- I believe it has county and city both.

Q: It-- it may do it. I was thinking like, for instance, out where E.L. West lives that used to be Norfolk County, out near was it just off Norview Avenue and-- and Little--

A: Who, Elgin West?

Q: Right. Out in that area. That was--

A: He lives on Piccadilly.

Q: Right. That was in the county years ago.

A: Yeah.

Q: But now the city.

A: Well that is-- that's Norview.

Q: Right

A: That's Norview.

Q: Right, but it's-- it's still part of the City of Norfolk though.

A: Well, it-- that's annexed.

Q: Right.

A: Yeah. That's right.

Q: All into the--

A: City of Norfolk.

Q: --into the City of Norfolk.

A: That's right, yeah.

Q: I think really the City of Norfolk has sort of swallowed up the county, which happens a lot of times.

A: (Laughs) That's what happens, I guess. Well it's considerable larger now than it was when I first moved here.

Q: Right I think that would be the better part of it. I saw a picture in the paper here a few-- must have been several months ago, of the Military Circle area. Seemed like it was in about the mid-fifties and there was an airstrip out there near where Janaf Shopping Center is now.

A: Mm-mm.

Q: And just some very small homes and it looked like it was really in the country.

A: Well, it was.

Q: So in the last twenty years you could say that Norfolk has really experienced a tremendous growth.

A: Well, it's more than doubled.

Q: In-- In the-- probably in the last twenty years, I would ________.

A: It's more than doubled in the last twenty years. See, the-- Norfolk was a very small town when I first moved here and they had streetcars then.

Q: Right.

A: And you get on a streetcar in Norfolk and go to the Naval base. You'd go through the country to get there and you had to pay two fares ________ zone-- two zones, see. It cost you a dime then to go to the Naval base. Now it would probably cost you a dollar. (Laughs)

Q: Probably. (Chuckles) And now Ocean View, was it sort of a little area to itself much like Virginia Beach was-- out on the strip.

A: Yeah. It's a new area.

Q: Right it was. In other words you would-- from going from Downtown Norfolk to Ocean View you would go through the country.

A: Yeah.

Q: Back in the thirties and forties.

A: Yeah. The only building between Norfolk and Ocean View was Ward's Corner had a filling station and a log cabin in it.

Q: Oh, my.

A: And now that's all built too.

Q: Now this would be what-- back in the thirties?

A: That was back in the thirties, yeah.

Q: So Ward's Corner was just a stopping off place between downtown Norfolk and-- and--and the--

A: That's true. It was eleven miles from Norfolk to Ocean View, see.

Q: Right.

A: And the streetcars-- there was an amusement center.

Q: Right, the old roller coaster.

A: Yeah, and the streetcars in the summertime used to pull one or two cars behind 'em to take the crowds down there.

Q: So that was-- that was the place to go, then, in the summertime--

A: That was the only place to go.

Q: --was to go to-- to Ocean View.

A: Yeah.

Q: I knew that-- that there used to be an awful lot of farming in-- in Norfolk County.

A: Oh, yeah, all where-- well, all around Ward's Corner there were farms. Produce farms--

Q: Uh-huh.

A: --right on down to Ocean View was produce farms in between there too.

Q: But Ocean View itself was the old Nansemond Hotel ___________ sort of a resort area back in-- back even in the thirties.

A: It was, it was, yeah. Amusement center. They had the roller coaster and all that for many years. I don't know how long they had that.

Q: Right. I believe it was built in 1900 or something of that time. I believe it was then.

A: It was. It's been there since I've been around.

Q: Right.

A: Until the-- they sold out now

Q: Right. I haven't been by-- I don't whether they torn it down or not. I haven't been by there.

A: They're going to. They're going to.

Q: Right, they're supposed-- supposed to.

A: Mm-mm.

Q: Well, let's see if I was-- I was try-- I thought of something else while ago I wanted to ask you about-- about Norfolk. But I know you have experienced a lot of change and a lot of-- a lot of growth in-- in the City of Norfolk. We were talking about some of the vices a little bit earlier-- you having been from the same generation that-- that my parents are from-- could you give me some of your ideas on the sort of getting-- maybe getting off on a different subject but could you give me some ideas on-- on family life now and maybe the-- the respect of-- of children for parents and maybe even some ideas on the drug culture and what it has done to our society as far as society changing itself. I know I can picture back-- we mentioned the old homes over on 27th, 28th, 29th Street Colonial Place. I've seen pictures of the twenties and the thirties with the family grouped around on the front porch-- maybe on a hot summer evening--

A: Mm-mm. Yeah.

Q: --with glasses of lemonade and-- and fans and-- and the mother and father and four or five children. You don't see the mother and father and the children very often nowadays together. What has happened? What--

A: Prosperity.

Q: --what are some of your ideas on this? What--

A: Prosperity started that. Both families are working. I mean both their parents, rather--

Q: Both parents.

A: -- are working.

Q: Right.

A: And the children are left to run by themselves.

Q: That's-- that's--

A: Oh, that's a bad thing. That's how I feel 'bout it.

Q: That's true. So the woman's place is really in the home.

A: I would say so.

Q: That's to take care of the family and--

A: Well, that was the intention you know with the Creator.

Q: Right.

A: The woman was to be the helpmeet, not the provider.

Q: Not the breadwinner.

A: That's right. The man was to do that. But one _________ said he had a second job to buy the car to get him to the third job so he could pay his bills you know. (Laughs)

Q: (Laughs) That's-- that's probably about right.

A: That's the way it goes now, we both work now see.

Q: Right.

A: And put this in while I'm at it: I'm against ERA.

Q: Right.

A: ____________

Q: Well I-- I--

A: I think that women should be in at home.

Q: I'll-- I'll go along with that.

A: 'Course I know there come-- there's exceptions to that.

Q: Right.

A: There are times when the woman has to work. My mother had to work. She had to-- but she didn't work-- she worked on her own farm. She had a farm and she raised her children there. But there are exceptions to the women working. I know sometimes they have to. But I think it's a shame that, that you have to let the home life go just to work. I think that's a shame.

Q: Well I'll-- I'll agree with you there. It seems to me like there's-- there's just been a general breakdown. I know as a schoolteacher myself-- 'course I teach mostly Christian kids not all of them, but there's-- the respect is not there that we think about there was like twenty years ago, and--

A: Well, when I was a little feller, you respected everybody older than you, see.

Q: Right.

A: Everybody. And you called 'em Mister and Mrs. And you said," yes ma'am" and "yes, sir." And that doesn't happen now, even to the parents.

Q: That's true. That's true.

A: And the children are allowed to more or less take care of themselves. In--in, I'd say, the majority of the cases.

Q: The society has become too permissive--

A: Yeah. That's it. That's right--

Q: --to a-- to a certain extent. It's just become too permissive a society.

A: But you know that's a-- that's a way the Lord spoke of. Things would get worse and worse.

Q: Right.

A: Not better and better.

Q: Right.

A: Now materially it may be better. In fact it is. People have more money now than they ever had in their life.

Q: Right.

A: But it's not doing 'em any good.

Q: But material things pass away.

A: They do. They-- they vanish.

Q: They pass away.

A: That's right.

Q: So there's-- there's-- at looking back, I know I interviewed my father about three years ago. We sat down over a tape recorder similar to this one night and talked for about three hours. And, oh, some of his ideas and-- and he seemed to prefer what he called the good ol' days. He--

A: Well--

Q: He said he was thankful that he was raised in the time that he-- that he came along.

A: I agree. But really, materially the good ol' days are now, see.

Q: Well, materialistically, right. The good ol' days are now because we're-- America's enjoying the greatest prosperity it's ever enjoyed.

A: Mm-mm, that's right.

Q: But--

A: But, spiritually--

Q: At the same time--

A: --_____ is let down.

Q: At the same time the family and-- and the home and the values are-- are not what they used to be.

A: Lasting values have vanished.

Q: Right.

A: That's what-- that's what it is.

Q: Can you think of maybe an interesting story or something that happened to you or that you have experienced that-- I'm sure everybody has maybe two or three things that happened in their lifetime that have-- have really stood out as-- as a real interesting experience that we might use maybe a couple of 'em to close out our-- our taping for this evening? An interesting event that has happened in your life or an interesting person you've met or become acquainted with or just something that would be-- someth-- some things that maybe stand out in your life that-- that you've been able to enjoy or partake in.

A: Well, the only thing that-- that was really outstanding: I was born again over sixty years ago.

Q: Well I would say that-- that's--

A: That's the greatest event that ever happened in my life.

Q: That's the greatest thing that could happen to anyone.

A: And I still remember the time and I can take you to the place.

Q: Well that's-- that's-- that's great.

A: And that's the greatest event that ever-- in fact I used it movin' people. They'd say," Mr. Hunter, how in the world did you ever get into this business? It's hard work."

Q: Right.

A: And I said the Lord led me into this business. He helped me get in business. And I'd tell 'em about how he saved me and how He kept me and how He told my how to pay tithes, and I didn't know how to make ends meet 'til He did and I've never been-- had a debt come due since that day I couldn't pay.

Q: Well that's-- that's a good testimonial to serving the Lord.

A: That's the-- that's the best I know.

Q: Especially in this day and time when people can't seem to make ends meet.

A: That's right. Well that was really tough back then. And I have actually borrowed money from the grocery men to pay the rent with.

Q: Right.

A: And the Lord told me on one Sunday at a friend's house-- no one heard this voice but me but I heard it. He said, "Son, when you make a dollar put away a dime."

Q: Right.

A: In those words.

Q: Right.

A: And the next day I started that and I kept that up the rest of my life. 'Til today. If I make a dollar now I still pay tithes. And, of course, I've retired-- been retired six years and I don't have any income except Social Security and I've already paid tithes on that income. But anytime any money comes in I pay tithes on it. And I think it's the greatest privilege that the man has ever had. To be prosperous in this life.

Q: What advice would you give to a young person -- say a high school senior -- who is just, we might say, stepping out to face the world. And if he would come over to you and-- and say, "Mr. Hunter I respect you, you're-- you've worked a lifetime and you've had many experiences and-- and tell me what do I need to do in life or-- or what-- (Phone rings) --where do I need to put my values?"

A: Excuse me.

Pause Tape

A: Well I would say: accept the Lord as your savior and take Him with you wherever you go.

Q: Right. Couldn't have a better companion.

A: That's the best friend you'll ever have.

Q: Right.

A: And follow His ____. Read the scriptures everyday. Make it a habit. Start the day off reading the word and praying to Him and follow Him. That's my advice to anyone.

Q: Well, I don't think you could-- I don't think you could go wrong.

A: No, I don't believe so. That's the best plan I know of.

Q: As far as following--

A: You know He said-- David the king-- what's that, he said, "I was once young, I'm now old, I've never seen the righteous forsaken or his seed begging bread." And this was spoken in the thirty-seventh chapter of the Psalms in the twenty-fifth verse. So follow and read the word everyday. Study the word.

Q: Right.

A: See, you study it to show yourself proven under God _____________ needeth not to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth.

Q: Well, I certainly have enjoyed talking with you. I feel like it's been a--

A: Well, I hope it's been.

Q: --a real benefit. It's-- you're an interesting person to talk to and you gave me some--

A: Well, thank you.

Q: -- insight of what Norfolk used to be like and maybe some precepts that we all need to follow to enjoy a better life.

A: I would say __________. I believe that if you follow the Lord you'll have more success.

Q: Well, I think that would be true. Thank you sir. I appreciate it.

A: You're certainly welcome.

Tape ends.

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See also his obituary from the Virginian-Pilot