Sweeney: This is James Sweeney, the University Archivist of Old Dominion University conducting an oral history interview with Mr. G. Conoly Phillips, Councilman for the City of Norfolk and recently a candidate for the United States Senate. The first question that I wanted to ask you Mr. Phillips, when you decided to enter politics back in the 1976 race for City Council in Norfolk, what was your principal motivation?

Phillips: I was asked to run by a group of businessmen who at that time perceived that the city was not bein’ run the way that they thought it should be run. A friend of mine Harvey Lindsay asked me to run on the ticket. We had talked about the problem in the city and I was interested in our city, but I was not interested in bein’ a candidate. So, when he asked me it … sort of took me by surprise and I immediately told him that I would not run, that politics was not somethin’ that I wanted to become personally involved in. And that from a Christian perspective, it really wasn’t anything that an Evangelical Christian would be interested in doin’. So, we sorta left it at that.

I did- -I remember he told me, too, that I should pray about my involvement which sorta surprised me because I really hadn’t prayed about it. After I … after I did pray about it, I know that he- -we talked on that occasion and I told him that I would pray about it and that if I had any other thoughts on it, that I would let him know. Well, about a week later he called me back a second time and asked me again would I run. At that second time that we spoke I really felt within myself something showing me that I had not really been open to become involved in politics personally. So after that second conversation, I ‘member it was on a Friday, and I remember that Friday night that I was awake a lot durin’ the night, most of the night, just really prayin’ and the Lord was showin’ me that He wanted me to be involved in politics.

And I ‘member how troubled it made me because it wasn’t anything that I had really seriously thought about and really wanted to become involved in. But I remember after that, a series of events took place. Meetings with the committee that was looking for a candidate and I did become a candidate. So I would, I guess say, summin’ it all up that it was really a result of prayer that brought me into the City Council race.

Sweeney: Did you have a similar experience when you were considering running for the U.S. Senate in 1978? In short, why did you become a candidate?

Phillips: Well, I ‘member shortly after I came on the Norfolk City Council, in my prayer times the Lord asked me about my willingness to go to Washington, and I always just said, "Lord I’ll go anywhere you send me." And that was ‘bout all there was to it. I thought at that time I might run for the Congress from this second district or something like that.

In November I ‘member so clearly in November, right about the middle of November of ’77, I woke up early one morning and was just lyin’ in my bed prayin’ and so clearly the idea came to me of runnin’ for the U.S. Senate and also on the

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Democratic Party. This troubled me because I had had no … I had had no thoughts at all about becoming involved in anything like the U.S. Senate race. But I saw clearly as I prayed that that was the Lord’s will for me to do, so it was really out of a callin’ from the Lord and as a result of prayer that I became a candidate.

Sweeney: Could you tell me something about the reaction of the professional politicians in the Democratic Party when you announced your decision to run?

Phillips: Well, I ‘member talking to Joe Fitzpatrick about it, the chairman of the state party who is a friend of mine and Chuck Robb. They were basically supportive. They weren’t really- -didn’t understand why. Many of my friends thought I had lost my mind. They couldn’t understand why I would do such a thing. But I think generally the professional politicians welcomed it because I think that they, ‘course those who were in a position of authority, because they wanted to- -there is an openness about the Democratic Party, and I think they welcomed anyone who wanted to become a serious candidate.

Sweeney: Could you explain to me why you decided to enter the Democratic Party really, convention not the primary, when the Democratic Party is considered the more liberal party and your views on many subjects tend to be somewhat conservative?

Phillips: Well, I really think that it was because of the callin’. I ‘member really prayin’ and really talkin’ with the Lord and askin’ the Lord why the Democratic Party because I felt in many ways I could get further even as an Independent going directly to the voter with no party label, or as a Republican because I have tended to be somewhat conservative in fiscal matters and things like that. But from the start there was no question in my mind from the very first time this call came that it was to be through the Democratic Party.

Sweeney: You have characterized your candidacy as a sort of "ministry unto the Lord." Could you explain the nature of this ministry?

Phillips: Yes, the ministry is quite simple. It’s basically callin’ the Christian community to involvement in politics. And I have been effective in this, for one reason certainly, that many people can identify with me when I tell them that up until the time early ‘76 when I ran for the Norfolk City Council that I was not at all involved in politics and- -nor would I let myself become involved.

There are many Christians, many Evangelical Christians that believe that politics are tainted; that politics are a little bit on the dirty side. And of course, we’ve got Watergate and things like this that have caused us to think this way. But there are many Christians, many Evangelical  Christians who have turned their back, really, on politics. And I really think the basic callin’ of this ministry, the basic- -is to energize, is to call these people to involvement in politics and government.

Sweeney: How do you respond to the criticism that you made religion an issue in the campaign and that your approach to politics is de facto a violation of the principle of the separation of church and state?

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Phillips: Well, I’ve said all along that religion and my Christian belief was not an issue in the campaign. However as I look back over it now, I see that it was more of an issue than I envisioned it to be. I said that my Christian belief was to let people know who I am and that there were no issues that had to do with Christianity. But there is a misunderstanding of this principle of separation of church and state. I think those who have studied history have seen that it was the State of Virginia or the Colony of Virginia that really insisted on this separation back in the 1700’s at the formation of our Constitution. And that was that the Church of England was the official church in the Colony of Virginia. Now there were those that were reformist which were Presbyterians and Baptists, that had come into the Colony of Virginia that were at that time having to really help support the Church of England pastors who were paid by the colonies and they didn’t like it.

And when the formation of the constitution came about they insisted that this would not happen. That there should be a separation that the church- -that the preacher should not be paid by the State. And this is what the- -this was actually the principle put in by church people, by dedicated church people. So any, and I said all during the campaign that any Evangelical Christian is dedicated to the idea of separation of church and state. We don’t want the state tellin’ us how to run our churches. We don’t want the state tellin’ us how to run our Sunday schools and our private schools. We want a total separation. Now what I have done is to call the individual person, individual Christian to involvement in government and politics. Not- -I have not worked through any organized denominational at a church trying to get it to become active as a body. I would be totally against that.

Sweeney: Could you discuss the reaction among Democrats and Virginians as a whole to the candidacy of a committed Christian?

Phillips: Well, I probably am not the one to. You may be able to answer that better than I could because I don’t know. I believe that the voter would be very much interested in voting for me. I think that the professional, the Democratic Party member was somewhat threatened. They didn’t really- -since I was new in the party that put a little tinge on me anyway and then coming in with a strong Christian stance, I think there was fear and misunderstanding and apprehension on the part of many of the regular Democratic Party members. Although they really never expressed this to me directly. So I guess I’m not really in a position to say. I really believe that the voter, given a chance to vote for me, I think the voter, if I cou- -you know I plan to get to the voter this fall and really talk issues and talk honesty and integrity but I think as I saw in the Norfolk City election two years ago, I think the voter would go for me if the party member wouldn’t.

Sweeney: You entered the campaign late. How did you go about making yourself and your views well known across the state?

Phillips: Well, after I announced on February 20th which was eight weeks, a little less than eight weeks from the primary, I really sort of scratched my head and said, "Now you know, Lord, what do I do next? I have announced and I have no organization, no supporters, no money except for my own. What do I do?"

And it’s interesting what the Lord showed me to do. I got a list of names of key- -there’s an organization called the Full Gospel Businessmen’s Fellowship that is an organized group of businessmen and professional men across the state that meet monthly and it’s primarily for Christian fellowship. And I got a list of their chapter presidents across the state, and primarily this is the way that I’d say that the Lord used to open up the doors.

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Because I would call these men and tell them what the Lord had shown me to do and I asked them to pray about their involvement. I never asked anyone to support me just because I was a Christian. But I would say that- -tell them that the Lord has laid on my heart to run for the U.S. Senate. That I’m doin’ it as a Christian ministry. I’m doin’ it to encourage the Christian community to become involved in government and politics and I would ask them to pray about their involvement because I wanted to come into their area and hold a meeting. Well, the Lord really worked on the hearts of these people. Sometimes they would help me. Sometimes they would refer me to someone else in the community that they thought might be more interested. But what- -I would call these people and probably have a half hour conversation over the phone just to tell them, you know, as much as I could about what I was doing. From that conversation we would set a meeting. I set up a schedule of places to go around the state and told them I would like to be in their area on such and such a date and would they help me arrange a meeting. Basically, that was the way it started through that organization.

Sweeney: Now the next group of questions deal with the mass meetings and we’ll take them up one at a time. You probably have already addressed some of them. What strategy or techniques did you employ to assure that you would do well at the mass meetings?

Phillips: Well, when we went into the areas and …  like, we went into Richmond. We first, just as an example, went up to Richmond and met with five men, two pastors and three laymen. Then, out of that meeting we had a second meeting about two weeks later (about a week and half later) and at that meeting we probably had fifteen to twenty people. There was great enthusiasm over the idea. Then we had another meeting, probably two or three weeks after that where we had probably a hundred people, then primarily from Henrico County some from the City of Richmond.

I think that was, I was trying to think if we had any more meetings, but this is the way we went about buildin’ toward the mass meetings. Havin’ a small initial meeting, havin’ a larger meeting about a week or two later, then tryin’ to have a, you might say, a mass meeting or a large meeting a week or two before the mass meetings. This is what we did in Richmond and then in Henrico County we did very well.

I’ve forgotten now the exact totals but I know that we came in with one or two more than Andy Miller had. So, we did well in Henrico County but it was really God working in the heart of the Christian, really callin’ them to this ministry. Over and over again the people around the state told me that they received from the Lord the same callin’ that I received. I know that we had people callin’ us that would hear me and they would call two and three weeks later and say Mr. Phillips when I heard you when you were in Charlottesville I was really turned off by the things you said, I didn’t like what you said but yet about a week or two later in my prayer time the Lord showed me that you were- -what you were sayin’ was true and that I should work with you and now I want to work with you.

Well, this happened over and over again and it cannot be understated that this was really God callin’ the Christian community to involvement in politics, you know, not really me. But that was the strategy just encouragin’ people, to come to the mass meeting. Then of course we explain to them a little bit about the political process what the mass meetings meant and why they were important. The response because of God workin’ in the heart of the

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believer was very good.

Sweeney: What did you see as the significance of your remarkable showing in the mass meetings?

Phillips: Well, I saw that God is working in the hearts of people. The Lord is interested in getting his people involved in politics. I can see this as an initial effort across the land and we will see this as time goes on how big this momentum is. But I see that it was probably the first time that I know about anywhere nationally that an effort such as this has been this successful. That Evangelical Christian people turnin’ out at a political rally to try, to get an Evangelical Christian elected. I think it had great significance from a national standpoint.

Sweeney: You seem to indicate that the so—called church people or Evangelical Christians have an innate reluctance to participate in a political campaign. Do you feel now that they have overcome that through your campaign?

Phillips: Well, those that are active now certainly have overcome it. They have become interested. First of all, they enjoyed the mass meetings some of them got trampled on you might say, but they came out of it with a few battle scars. But what they saw was that it gives them a chance to meet new people, to minister the word of God to people that probably need it like everyone does. They really enjoyed it and I think this was really the joy of the Lord in ‘em.

Also those who participated in the convention, they enjoyed it. They thought it was great and I can see that there will be a continued effort on the part of the people in the days ahead to stay involved in politics.

Sweeney: In what areas of the state did you concentrate your effort before the mass meeting?

Phillips: Well, we didn’t try to pick out any particular areas. It just seemed like we just trusted the Lord to raise up the areas that he wanted to have raised up. It’s interesting in retrospect how some areas were much stronger than other areas. I think that the Staunton, Augusta County area turned out to be a very strong area. Henrico County was a strong area.

‘Course, around Tidewater was naturally strong — the six cities, Newport News, Hampton, and Suffolk. I guess we had 61% of the mass meeting in Suffolk which I guess Suffolk was probably as strong as any we- - ‘Course in Norfolk we could have been strong, but the Lord showed us to work with the Democratic Committee in Norfolk and not try to, you might say, storm in and take it over or anything like that. So, we didn’t do as well in Norfolk from the standpoint of delegates as we may have.

The only area that we didn’t really get to was the southwest, way out in the ninth district. We were only out there one time. But it was interesting to me, some of the areas we just never could get anything going. Hopewell and Petersburg – they were probably as weak areas- -then ‘course a lot of the counties we didn’t get much goin’ in Carolina or- - Then up in the Northern Neck we didn’t get a whole lot of the first district. Up around Tappahannock we didn’t get a whole lot going up there, So it was really- -we just trusted the

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Lord and depended on the Lord to raise up the people that he wanted and that it just depended on where they happened to be.

Sweeney: Were you surprised by your strong showing at the mass meetings?

Phillips: Well, a lot of people were surprised. I really wasn’t surprised. In fact, except that I know that the Lord doesn’t make mistakes I was almost, you might say, disappointed in that I felt like that if we- -that we had the potential to get many more delegates than we got. We got approximately four hundred at the mass meetings. But we could ‘ve with a little bit more effort you know we came in so late and we really got going so late that we could ‘ve, if we could ‘ve gotten to more churches and turned out more people - in many places we had delegates lined up but we just didn’t get the people - we could ‘ve had seven or eight hundred delegates turned out. So I really wasn’t surprised at the strong showing we made. In fact I might say I was a little bit disappointed.

Sweeney: Did you notice a new attitude perhaps a new respect on the part of the Democratic Party leadership towards you after the mass meeting?

Phillips: Well yeah I think there’s no question because one of our strategies prior to the mass meeting was to be very quiet about what we did. After my announcement on February 20th, I held no press conferences and I purposely stayed away from the press because we did want to try to use an element of surprise.

Now about a week and a half before the mass meeting, though, the word sorta’ got out because we had sent a lot of tapes around the state and, I don’t know, it was just beginning to get out. Then we did have some interviews, some requests for interviews which I didn’t turn down, but it seemed like the word got out prior to the mass meeting. After the mass meeting, yes, the leadership of the party was much more respectful to me because they had to respect what I had done.

Sweeney: I wanted to ask you a question about staff and budget. In respect to staff in one of your campaign publications the "Good Newsletter" you referred to someone from Charlottesville who came down and joined your campaign and gave professional expertise on the subject of Virginia Politics. I wonder, for the historical record, if you could identify this person and any other people who played a key role in the campaign?

Phillips: Yes, up until the mass meeting most of our campaign staff was volunteer, but I’ll go over briefly some of the people who played a part in it. There was a young man, Ed Mabry, who was from Norfolk who is presently a student at the University of Virginia finishing up his degree requirements. Ed has worked for the last five years for campaign candidates and is now going back to school to receive his degree. He came to us, called us on the phone and said that he would like to talk with us. That he had information for us that would be beneficial to us.

Now, going into this campaign we were totally new at it, we needed help. In fact we had prayed and we had said, "Lord we need help. We need someone to come and show us a little bit about Democratic Party politics. Someone that we can, you know, trust and know that they’ll be tellin’ us the truth."

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We looked upon Ed Mabry as really an answer to prayer, because we really believed that God sent him to us to give us the information that we needed about the party. So, he was the one that worked with us. Now a second one: Jerry Tiehart. Jerry was a person that was an officer in the Air Force. I got to know him when he was stationed here at the Armed Forces Staff College, or I got to know his wife because his wife was in a Bible class that my wife taught.

After Jerry and Bonnie Tiehart left Norfolk and moved to Washington when he was stationed in the Pentagon, he had an experience with the Lord. He came to know the Lord as his personal savior and we became friends. Well, early before I announced, I called Jerry and shared with him the vision that the Lord had given me about running for this office and I asked him to pray about his involvement. Well, the Lord called him out of the Air Force and he joined our staff as our campaign manager or director. There were others: Ethel Steadman who had been a reporter for the “Virginian Pilot” for the past fourteen years. She received a call to leave her job as Jerry did and to join the campaign. She is still working with us now in this phase after the convention.

There were other people that joined us as a callin’ of God and became involved in our staff. Now at the time- -before the convention we had a total of nine people on a paid staff: schedulers … well just all the people that it took to run the campaign. Now, of course, this is considerably less than some of the others.
You see, prior to the mass meeting the candidates had as many as thirty and forty people on a paid staff. Up before the mass meetings we did not have any. I ‘member the story was told to me that one of the other wives of one of the other candidates asked her husband, she said, “How is it that Conoly Phillips has spent about nine or ten thousand dollars with no staff and he came in with third place, and you know, you spent 250 thousand dollars and had a full staff and the results aren’t there?"

So, it was the effort before the mass meeting would have to be considered in my opinion a miracle of the Lord in that the Lord impressed upon the hearts of people to go to these meetings. Actually the people went not for me but because of a callin’ of the Lord. But getting back to the budget and the staff, we are now windin’ up our campaign. Now, after the mass meetings between April 15th and June 10th, we did spend a lot o’ money.

As I say, we did have a staff of nine people. I did a quite a bit of travelin’. We met with the other delegates, delegates for Miller and the uncommitted delegates. And we ‘course had meals for them to get to know ‘em and we did spend quite a bit o’ money. Now the campaign will end up spending somewhere around 85,000 dollars.

Now another interesting part of this which I have received on faith and that is that the Lord showed me not to ask anybody for money. I did not raise any money in this campaign except maybe a couple of thousand dollars that people just sent in voluntarily. I made no effort, sent out no letters, basically I have paid for this campaign myself, not because I have particularly

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wanted to. But as a result of prayer, I believe that had I sent out a letter that would have been against what the Lord wanted me to do. So that’s another interesting perspective on the race. And I know without a question that I could have raised the 85,000 dollars from the Christian community across the state, but I never asked anyone for any money during the campaign.

Sweeney: Could you tell me how you came upon the interesting idea of sending an audiocassette to each delegate to the Democratic state convention? And how effective do you think the cassette was in influencing the delegates?

Phillips: Well, durin’ the time prior to the mass meetings on April 15th, when we would go into a place, as I mentioned a little while ago, and we would meet with a few people, these people would bring their cassette tapes with them and say, "Look I’d like to share this with a Bible study group or a prayer group." So they would tape our presentation. And these tapes were then reproduced and were sent literally all over the state. I would imagine that we probably sent as many as a thousand tapes across the state prior to the mass meetings, because many of the people came to the mass meetings as a result of hearing the tape never meeting me. I know at one time we reproduced as many as 200 at one time. So there were many, many tapes bein’ sent around the state with me and my wife, Betsy, talkin’ about this new ministry of Christian involvement in politics.

Well, after the mass meeting I saw how effective it was. I just decided that since I could not meet all of the delegates (the 2700 delegates from around the state, 2800) then it would be wise to send them a cassette tape which we did. And I prepared about a twelve to fifteen minute talk and we sent one to every person around the state. Now, it was expensive. I think we have figured up- -each tape, I think, cost us $1.48 including the postage, the cost of the tape, the production, the little heavy brown bag, you might say, the heavy envelope that we sent it in. But each of ‘em cost $1.48 times about 2800, so it was around between four and five thousand dollars to send out these tapes.

The feedback was very good. It was very effective. Now … and ‘o course we- -from everything that we can find out it is a first in Virginia politics and probably a first in national politics of a candidate using a cassette tape to try to influence either delegates or voters. As a matter of fact, Ray Colley, who is the 8th District Democratic Chairman and also the Deputy Clerk of the United States House of Representatives told me that to his knowledge no one in the House of Representatives has ever used anything like this. So, it looks like that we may have had a first not only in Virginia politics by using this little cassette tape, but politics in the United States.

Sweeney: The convention vote totals reveal that your strength was concentrated in the Tidewater area. Now, I would like to talk especially on two other areas. Throughout the three ballots you’ve only received five votes in Southwest Virginia's Ninth Congressional District. And you’ve mentioned the fact that you didn’t do too much work out there but "The Fighting Ninth" is known as an area of strong religious fervor. To what do you attribute your poor performance in the Ninth District?

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Phillips: Well, it was interesting that the Lord never really raised up any leaders in the Ninth District prior to the mass meetings. So we never, except for one Democratic meeting, I was only in the Ninth District one time prior to the mass meetings. So, just getting five out of there was good because we had nothing goin’ in- -well no, these five, that’s right, were in areas- -I guess these five votes were the ones we did have. I think there were several things.

I think Andy Miller, o’ course, lived in the Ninth District for ten years. He’d lived there in Abingdon and was very popular in the Ninth District. And ‘o course, we know that he carried the Ninth District by a tremendous amount. I had many people there in the Ninth that told me that if Andy faltered they would go to me as a second choice. This, of course, was my strategy and I felt like that Andy would fall on the second and third ballot, but o’ course we know that he didn't. In fact he gained strength in those ballots. So I had many people to tell me that on the third or fourth ballot, if the balloting really went on that they would switch over to me. I got to know a lot of the- - I spent a lot of time in the Ninth District after the mass meeting trying to get to know the delegates and naturally swayin’ ‘em, tryin’ to sway ‘em my way. It did not work, because Miller was able to hold on to his support in the Ninth District and it’s certainly a tribute to his ability and his popularity out there. The people there are religious people and I think that they would go for a candidate like me if the circumstances were different. If they had not pledged their support to him in the initial stages of the campaign and if I, you know, spend more time out there getting’ to know people.

Sweeney: You also did not attract substantial support in Northern Virginia. Urban areas, of course, are sometimes characterized as lacking in religious commitment. Do you believe that any weakness of the church in Northern Virginia hampered your efforts there?

Phillips: Well, I did get about twenty delegates in the 10th District and I forget now, about the same number in the 8th. Northern Virginia is a much more liberal part of the state and yet there is a tremendously strong Christian community there, Evangelical Christian community. The people there see, I know we heard it over and over again that they just see the need of godly men in government because of the way our country is going. They talk about the tremendous amount of alcoholism on Capitol Hill, just the tremendous problems that exist on Capitol Hill. And I believe that I would make an impact in Northern Virginia. Here again, we must remember also that five of the eight candidates were from Northern Virginia. You know Senator Clyde Duval a very popular and well-known man up in that area. And the- -‘course Rufus Phillips, but five of the eight candidates were from Northern Virginia. So I guess that had something to do with my lack of showing there.

Sweeney: What is your assessment of your overall performance at the Democratic state convention?

Phillips: Well, o’ course - I have to look at this first in the Christian perspective - when the voting started, you know, I just told the Lord then, I said, "Lord now I’ve done my part and if there are any miracles are going to be performed today, that’s going to be your part." Because I basically felt that the Lord would have to change the hearts and minds of the delegates if I were to win. Basically, of course, seeing it now that did not happen. I mean

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the delegates stayed with their candidates. I did not make a dent in anyone else’s delegates. I believe that I would ‘ve, had the voting continued. But Mr. Miller was able to hold onto what he had on the second ballot and go where to the- -he was so close that the other- -‘course the others threw in. But I guess assessin’ my performance, it wasn't very good. Basically all that I had was what I went into the convention with, I really did not pick up from anyone else.

Sweeney: Would you have preferred to run in a primary? Do you think you would have done better?

Phillips: Well,‘course, at the time before the convention I was asked that question and I said I didn’t think it made any difference between the primary or a convention, and probably I would have to stick with that. However, I believe that had the people been able to vote it may have been a different story but it would have been very costly, and I was very satisfied with the convention setup.

Sweeney: What would you say was your chief accomplishment in running for the Democratic nomination for the U.S. Senate?

Phillips: Well, I think that we are just beginning to see a trend that I believe will be a national trend. I think what is started in Virginia will be a national trend. ‘Course, only time will tell; history will tell.

But … I think a tremendous amount has been accomplished. The Evangelical community which is a rising number of people in all walks of life, in all denominations, in all- -the Catholics: there’s a tremendous renewal within the Catholic community. In every denomination there is a renewal, a, you might say, turning back to God, a revival goin’ on. And I believe that those that have been, really, their lives have been affected by this revival, I really believe that they will start turning more to government. Because we are seein’, we meaning the Evangelical Christians, are seein’ that if we’re goin’ to make our nation and state and city a better place to live we’ve got to work through the process, through the political governmental process. And I think this is what the people are seein’ now, that they want to have an impact and they want to work through the process of government.

Sweeney: Do you believe that your defeat means that you misinterpreted the Lord’s message in deciding to make the race?

Phillips: Oh, no. No, I think that God’s callin’ was on me and I think that I still will have a ministry on Capitol Hill. Now what it will be or when it will come, here again time will tell. But, He gave me the faith to believe that I would be nominated. Now, and I see why that was necessary. I would never have done what I did. I would never have worked as hard as I worked. I would have never gone eighteen hours a day, day after day, drivin’ all over the state and flyin’ all over the state and havin’ three and four meetings a day and speaking constantly, had I not had the faith to believe that I’d have been a winner. So, I think it was essential for the Lord to do this in order for me to participate. But I also believe that this is just a beginning. That the convention was the beginning not the ending. And the fact of the

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matter is that those who have helped me all over the state just about to the person, everyone has said the same thing: this is the beginning. This is the beginning of somethin’ big.

Sweeney: Now let us look to the future. Some of your critics in the Democratic Party and I’ve heard them make these comments have said that neither you nor your supporters have a record of Democratic Party loyalty and that if you did not receive the nomination, you and your followers would vanish from the party ranks. How would you respond to this criticism?

Phillips: Well, o’ course, I believe that my callin’ is to the Democratic Party and here again only time will tell. But I plan to stay active in the Democratic Party and I plan to encourage all of those who have helped me to stay active also. In fact, now, we’re having a meeting this Thursday night.

Now, today is the, what, about the nineteenth or so of June. We're having a meeting this Thursday night the 22nd in Richmond. We’ll probably have between seventy—five and a hundred of our workers from all over the state, and I’ll tell you what we are plannin’ to do. The meeting will cover two subjects: our future involvement in the Democratic Party and here again I’m encouraging them to stay, to become active in their local committee and to just stay in the Party. Now, ‘course it’s gonna be up to the Lord to work on these people, you know, to give them the vision to do that.

Now, the second thing that we’ll talk about is somethin’ that we haven’t said publicly yet and that is that we plan to have a non—partisan arm that we are plannin’ to call the Evangelical Caucus. Now this will be a nonprofit nonpartisan nonsectarian organization, which will be to encourage, which will continue the ministry that we have started. And that is to call the Christian to involvement in politics. We will work in the area of voter registration among churches. We will work in the area of encouragin’ Christian people to become involved in party politics. Naturally, I’ll encourage ‘em toward the Democratic Party. If they want to go into the Republican Party we will encourage them there also. But this caucus, this Evangelical Caucus will be primarily to call the Christian community to involvement in politics so that we expect to continue strong but we also expect to continue strong in the Democratic Party.

Sweeney: So you believe that other candidates with a strong Christian commitment will emerge on the local, state and national level?

Phillips: Well, this ’ll be one of the things that the Caucus will do as far as calling Christians to active involvement in politics. We will also call them to pray about becoming candidates for office on all three levels as well as bein’, you might say, party workers, yes.

And I think that we will see this in Virginia in the years to come, more Christian candidates declarin’ themselves. Now, I would say this. I’m goin’ to encourage those who declared that they are called of God, You know Christians can take ego trips, too. And I think the main question will be are they called of God to run or are they running as an ego trip?

[12]

Sweeney: A final question: What are your future political plans?

Phillips: Well, my future plans, ‘course, I’m a member of the Norfolk City Council at the present time. ‘Course we have a mayor’s nomination comin’ up in a few weeks the first part of July, and I don’t know whether I would be selected as mayor. I’m not really seekin’ it but I am interested in our city. It’s really- -I’d just have to say that it’s just like what I’ve done up until now,the two offices that I have run for, if the Lord shows me to run for an office. I know I was asked to run against Congressman Whitehurst here in the Second District before the cut-off time came about a week or so ago, but I didn’t get any leading of the Lord to run against Bill Whitehurst. But I would say that if the Lord chose me to run for public office again after my time on the Council is up or even before, I would be open to it. I really believe that the Lord will have me to continue in politics; however I would say that I could walk away from it very easily.

Sweeney: Do you have anything else you would like to say, Mr. Phillips?

Phillips: Well, I guess maybe elaborate on what I just said that it’s interesting to me that I have enjoyed politics and yet I could walk away from it. I know that when I did not receive the nomination, at the convention week before last, I was greatly relieved. I really felt like someone had lifted 100 pound weight off my back because I believe that I was faithful to the Lord’s call. But when the Lord’s will was for me not to be the nominee I was very thankful.

I see that one of the problems with politicians, and I guess we could talk all day [chuckle], is that many politicians become so enamored with their office that they become ineffective. I can even see it on the local Norfolk City Council that one of the primary objectives of any politician any elected official is to stay elected. This is a problem and particularly a person who stays in office a long time. I can see how bein’ in office over a period of years can affect a person’s thinking process and cause them to make mistakes. I think we can see that with President Nixon, with people acr- -

I really wonder sometimes if there shouldn’t be a limit on the amount of time anyone stays in politics, because they can come to the point where they need the office. And when a person needs the office then they are going to make decisions that are politically expedient to keep them in office. And I can say that, you know, I could walk away from the Norfolk City Hall today and never be on the City Council again and never miss it, because I have tried to keep it objective. Now, that’s why I can’t be pressured by pressure groups because I don’t care about winnin’ the next election. Because I know if the Lord wants me to be elected, I’ll be elected and if He doesn’t, I couldn’t win anyway. So, I have tried to stay- -any decision I make, I don’t make it from the standpoint of being pressured by pressure groups by either not voting for me next time or voting for me if I go their way. I try to do what I believe is right for the City of Norfolk without that … attitude. So, I would say that my future in politics is definitely up to the Lord’s callin’ and if the Lord has me remain in politics I’ll remain, and He’ll either open the doors or shut the doors as He sees fit. So … I just say that I’ll probably just wait and see what the future has for me as it pertains to politics.

Sweeney: Thank you very much, Mr. Phillips.