Schweitzer: There was very little that really went on ... that was formal as far as being before the papers or whatever, in that a lot of people weren' t talking because of what was going on in the courts. They were a little bit afraid to say anything. Plus you've got to remember that at that time all of these people that were fighting each other as far as the city council, school board, the judge, all those people, they're all good friends ... and had been for years. I think one of the funniest portions on that one was one day I was out helping my dad rake the back lawn and at that time Newport News had just built a brand new jail and Judge Hoffman came ridin' by in his car and stopped and he just had this big grin on his face and said "All right, Paul, you gonna go to the new jail over in Newport News or we gonna have to send you to the old one over here?" He just drove off, and--and, you know, they had lot of respect for each other. ____ if he wanted to he would do it, now, there wouldn't be any friendship that would interfere in that type of thing.

Question: Was it the same also with Mayor Duckworth? It was?

Schweitzer: Yeah! Now Dad and Mr. Duckworth got along real well, but Dad was also, even though it was highly said around that time that Duckworth didn't have anybody on council or anybody on the school board that wasn't one of his henchman, quote unquote, okay. But there was an awful lot in the background going on there of infighting not only with the other council members but between the school board and the council. They'd call each other up, talk to each other. Dad would--I remember many, many a night Dad would come home just livid in rage at what the mayor was trying to do, because it was so dumb it wasn't gonna work, it was ridiculous, let's get the kids back to school, the only people who are hurtin' are the kids.

Q: Yeah!

Schweitzer: And ... they had couple or three meetings over at Dad's office. 'Course I wasn't included in any of these things but ... they discussed these things back and forth, fire 'em back and forth and what they should do what they couldn't do. Dad was all for just getting the schools back open. "Look it's gonna come, we're--we don't wanna get to the point to where they were in Little Rock and this kind of stuff, we're just not going to have it." They didn't want to appear in print or on television or wherever, as another Little Rock-type situation. They wanted to keep it as calm as they could, and even Duckworth who was very rabidly against the--

Q: Yeah!

Schweitzer: --integration, didn't want Norfolk to get the bad reputation that some of the other big cities had then. He just wasn't going to put up with it. So there was lot of little--little informal meetings.

Q: That the newspapers really couldn't --

Schweitzer: Couldn't--couldn't tell about 'cause most of 'em they didn't even know about.

Q: Is ... I guess, then, I had understood it to be more of a really kind of us against them type of situation between the School Board and City Council, from what I had understood but from what you're saying it doesn't really seem like that even though Duckworth wanted to --was -- you know so against it. That it was just kinda of a...

Schweitzer: I think the attitude was there of us against them. But it wasn't nearly as harsh as the media tried to make it look like, and it just--that wasn't the case. You know, Duckworth had his ideas and he was very dynamic, almost to being a point of hard-headed man, there's just no doubt about it. He was going to have his way and it finally took the judge, Dad and a few other people of that era, I'm trying to think of some of the other people that I--that were in on some of that stuff.

Q: Well, Brewbaker was the Superintendent at the time.

Schweitzer: Yeah, but Brewbaker was a--a rabid segregationist, too.

Q: Really?

Schweitzer: Oh yeah!

Q: You can -- I can hardly tell that from the papers!

Schweitzer: Yeah. And when he left and retired as ... head of the school administration and went and took over the, what was it, Tidewater County?

Q: I don't know! It wasn't that school that they set up, was it, the Tidewater Educational Foundation ? The private, he took over that?

Schweitzer: Yeah

Schweitzer: This was --

Q: James Martin?

Schweitzer: Now, this was after he had retired -- this was after the school year, or maybe even after the next year. But then it really came out how rabid a segregationist he was. As he got older, the older he got, the worse he got. He got to the point where you--you couldn't even talk to him.

Q: Jeez!

Schweitzer: Yeah I know. Just, I don't know.. just

Q: I really don't get that impression from the papers 'cause he seemed like a moderate. He seemed like he was, you know, very much in--in line with your father--

Schweitzer: No. The only thing that I will say that he was, and again Mr. Brewbaker and Dad had been friends for years and years and years. We all went to the same church together. I grew up with his kids and all this kind of stuff. Duckworth was for the educational system, okay. I don't think he was in favor of closing the schools, but he was a very definite segregationist. He just did not want to see the schools integrated, but he didn't want to see 'em closed either. So I think that more or less gave him the--as far as media was concerned, the outlook of being social-minded, but he was not by a long shot.

Q: How did your -- your father feel personally about integration? I know at first they denied admission to all the students, all the applicants--there was a hundred and fifty-one of them I believe. How did--how did he feel personally about integration?

Schweitzer: That's a hard question to answer. I would say this. At that time in that period, you could consider him as a segregationist. But he was also a man that realized the time had come, this was it. There wasn't any use in fightin' it, there's no use in going down the tubes and hurtin' all the rest of the kids and everything else that was going on at that time. Let's get the kids educated and let--let the--if you gonna -- if we're gonna fight it out then let's let the parents fight it out in court or whatever. Let's get the kids back to school. He was never, in any manner trying to--even remotely in favor of closing the school.

Q: Oh yeah, that's what I--I've gotten from the papers that education came first and I've gotten quite a few quotes from him to that effect.

Schweitzer: That was one thing that Dad ... never had a college degree. And he always felt inferior to--especially to these other people that he was working with, school board, City Council, ________--

Q: They always said that in the paper too! "Successful businessman with no college degree..."

Schweitzer: Right. And that--every time they mentioned that, that hurt. We had a lot of arguments and stuff about that just between he and I. But ... he was, as far as the school of hard knocks is concerned, he was a very well-educated man, he wasn't--and he was all ...all in favor of--of education no matter where it was. He went later on to serve on Lynchboard--Lynchburg College Board and the Board over at Virginia Wesleyan .

Q: Did he--did you ever talk about--I know in the paper said that his experiences in Arizona greatly influenced his decisions quite a bit. Did you ever get in to that?

Schweitzer: Quite a bit. Dad would bring that up a lot of times, at that time, and a lot of times before and after in that he and his sister were the only two WASP, quote unquote, kids in the school. The rest of 'em were either Indians or Mexicans or something along that line.

Q: Yeah

Schweitzer: He was also a man that in the business that he was in you dealt with a lot of minority groups or--and less-educated people. Drilling water wells is not a white-collar job and it never was. He always got along extremely well with his people. It really kind of amazed me as well as he did. But he would be just as comfortable sittin' in--with his feet in a mud ditch drinkin' a beer with the guys on the -- on the well rig as he would going to a city full-dress function.

(Both talking at the same time)

Q: With all the judges and--yeah.

Schweitzer: Sure! And he fitted in either way, and no problem. That was the one thing that I really thoroughly admired about him. I don't want to be tootin' my dad's horn, but he was--

Q: That's what I am here for!

Schweitzer: He was ama--he was a ... an amazing man for his time.

Q: How did he feel about, I guess then he--he wasn't really that concerned with--with you and your sister being in integrated schools then because, from what I remember I think you were getting--you weren't getting private tutoring lessons and your sister was in another school?

Schweitzer: No

Q: No?

Schweitzer: In fact, that was the one thing that I regret about the whole deal, in that I was a senior the year that they closed the schools--

Q: You were seventeen then?

Schweitzer: Yeah

Q: Yeah

Schweitzer: And, of course the Granby annual was dedicated to my dad, in '59. I did not--was not able to come back and graduate from Granby. I went out to Great Bridge and finished up out there. I was just all in favor of going to school. I wanted to get it over with. My sister went to one of the church schools, schools in one of the churches. I've forgotten which church it was now. When I decided that I was going to try to go to school somewhere outside of the city Dad was out of town on a business meeting somewhere and when he came back is when I told him, that I was going. He said, "That's fine." He said, "I have no objection to that whatsoever." He said, "I hope that when we do finally get this things opened back up, you can come back, but I'd rather you have your education. I don't care where it is." There was no problem ________--

Q: So it didn't--so if there had been blacks in the schools out there or anything like that he wouldn't have --

Schweitzer: No!

Q: he wouldn't have minded that either?

Schweitzer: No! No ...No objection there at all.

Q: Yeah. So ... this is really hard for me.

Schweitzer: It's my first time on something like this too, so--

Q: Could you go into a little bit about the court proceedings, you know, during that time, in the--in the early fall and ... --

Schweitzer: All right, when you say go into the court proceedings, I only attended if I can remember right, one court session there. In Judge Hoffman's court. And there was--you know, like I said, that was twenty five years ago.

Q: Yeah, I know.

Schweitzer: or more. I remember Mr. Duckworth really getting upset at the fact that the Judge--he knew that Judge Hoffman was going to go ahead and--and open the schools back up. You gotta remember that Judge Hoffman was a big Southern conservative Republican.

Q: Oh, really?

Schweitzer: Hm-m. Very active in the Republican Party. Up until he went on the bench. In fact he and Senator Breeden were law partners, Senator Breeden was a big Democrat and ______ Hoffman was a big Republican and I think that Duckworth expected Judge Hoffman to be a whole lot more conservative than he turned out to be once he got on the bench. ___________ I won't say conservative but more of a segregationist than he was when he got on the bench but he took the rules that came down from the bigger courts. He said, "That's it, that's what's been laid down for me and this is what we're gonna do. And there is no--no choices on anybody's part." And he tried to stay, I think, as out of limelight, out of the argument back and forth as much as he could. Just by saying, "This is what has been passed down to me, this is what we're gonna do. And I don't care how close a friend I am with you or you, this is what we're gonna do.".

Q: How did--how did that affect your standing with--with maybe other students w-- the stand your father was taking, how did--did you get a lot of--I read some of the mail and some of it was really unbelievably rabid, _____________, terrible.

Schweitzer: My sister caught more of it than I did. Being a girl, being relatively young, being almost helpless as far as not knowing what to say and all this type of things. I got a little of it. I remember one football game that I went to between Oscar Smith and Great Bridge, and some of the kids that were going to the second school at Oscar Smith--at that time Oscar Smith had their regular schools start a couple of hours early. They had another full high school in that same building starting at four o'clock in the afternoon, which was almost all Norfolk city kids, and I got, you know, a few tauntings and remarks and stuff like that thrown at me. It didn't bother me that much. I guess I just, I knew what was going on, and I felt that it was kind of ridiculous for them to close the schools. I felt my dad was caught in the middle, wasn't anything we could do about it. We went through either three or four different phone numbers in a space of about three months, there. We'd get calls two, three, four clock in the morning. Very obviously, drunks and fanatics and all that kinds of stuff. One of them I remember Betty answering the phone on, and ... I remember her dropping the phone just in total tears and I picked up the phone and this guy was really, you know, "nigger-lovin' bitch we'll send you down to Church St in the middle of the night" and all this kind of stuff, you know ... That part of it hurt most. It was a pretty rough time. Most of the friends and stuff that I had, though, it didn't bother them at all.

Q: Did this go for your parents' friends also? They--did they kind of stick by them pretty well?

Schweitzer: I can't think of a single occasion where they were not invited to something or something on that line that would--

Q: Because of that?

Schweitzer: Because of that. Nothing that I can think of. Again I think that most of the community was not in the favor of Mr. Duckworth's stand.

Q: That's the impression I've--I've gotten from the--reading some of the editorials that were written to the paper and everyone just seemed to be mostly concerned with opening up the schools. Even the students, there was quite a few of student petitions and things of this nature that kept us-- What did your dad think of the referendum? He didn't--I don't think he wanted it , is that correct? The referendum to-

Schweitzer: I don't think he--he felt that that was the proper thing to do.

Q: It was just kind of a useless move?

Schweitzer: Yeah, it was, you know, all you're doing is creating more hate and discontent

Q: What did he think of Governor Almond?

Schweitzer: I can remember one statement of his. He said he's a fine Southern gentleman who shouldn't be sitting where he is. But Governor Almond came down--I remember one time he came down to the house, in his own car and sat down and talked with Dad. Of course, they were ordered everybody else out of the room, just the two of them sat down and they must have talked, I guess, two or three hours. And both of them came out of the room in tears. Judge Almond felt like he was being pushed into this thing by the Byrd Machine, and he was really not that much in favor of closing schools and that type of thing, either. But his political power was based on a group that did want that. And he felt like pretty much of a pawn.

Q: But your dad really couldn't have too much sympathy for him then I guess?

Schweitzer: Well ... Dad was pretty much of a -- of a Byrd ... "man" if you want to put it that way. But he was a--again he was also a, you know, if he didn't believe what they were doing was right that was it. He was going to stop right then and fight 'em on whatever point that was.

Q: Did the Byrd people ever contact him or ...or?

Schweitzer: Yeah.

Q: They did?

Schweitzer: Sure. Constantly! And ... you know when--when I say Byrd people and when you say Byrd people the people that were doing the contacting you would not know as a Byrd man. Man named Billy Prieur that ran the--think he was Clerk of Courts.

Q: Billy Prieur?

Schweitzer: Billy Prieur! Prieur was ... I don't want to be unkind to him 'cause he was a nice man, I really liked him, but he was Byrd's, in the connotation of that time he was Byrd's henchman for--henchman for Norfolk. If Billie Prieur said this then that was it. There was no question, ________.

Q: Oh really?

Schweitzer: He did it. And I don't mean it that--that he was strong arm tactics and that kind of stuff. But as far as political persuasion was concerned Billie said do it, it got done. Or if you wanted a job with the Byrd organization, you went to Billie Prieur.

Q: That's interesting. What kind of contacts did he have with your father? Just --

Schweitzer: They would have ---

Q: Just kind of--

Schweitzer: Numerous phone calls. I remember a couple of times--

Q: Did he ever threaten him or anything?

Schweitzer: No. No. No. There was never as far as I can remember any personal threats against Dad from people in power. There were from a few fanatics that we had and the letters and that stuff that you saw. But I never saw any personal threats against Dad at all.

Q: Did it ever affect his business, by any chance, just out of curiosity?

Schweitzer: It seems to me that at that time he did lose one contract for a small town in South Carolina because of this. I can't remember what--what the deal was. But I remember him coming back from the bid opening at this small town for their water system. And them saying--Dad saying, "I was a low bidder, but I didn't get the job and I know why. It's because of the school board right here," and that was all he ever said. And other than that, no. It's the only one I can think of. Dad's--most of Dad's business was with government and this type of thing so you didn't have that kind of problem.

Q: Did ... did he ever kind of regret it or kind of being in that position at that time, you know ...

Schweitzer: Oh! I think right at the height of it, sure, he was--he didn't want to be the guy on--sittin' on a bubble or whatever you want to call it. But later on in life now I don't think he looked back on it with any regrets at all. In fact I think that he was very proud of what he had done, going through that. Especially later on when he got that ... forgotten what they call it now, the award for the Christians and Jews, I forgot what the deal, what that was. It was one of the big things ____.

Q: Oh, I didn't come across it.

Schweitzer: Every year they honored a Protestant and a Catholic and a Jewish person. I can't remember the name of the organization and he was honored with a citizenship-type award

Q: Because of his his stance..

Schweitzer: Well not so much his stand during that but, a lot of the things that he did--

Q: Overall contributions?

Schweitzer: Yeah, on through Council __________, once he finally decided to serve on the Council. That was--that was what was really became interesting.

Q: Can you go into it.

Schweitzer: Once he--once the schools were opened back up. Things calmed back down. Then Fred Duckworth turned around and called Dad and wanted him to serve him on City Council with him, and ... Dad just sort of laughed and said "No, I'm not an elected politician and I don't want to have anything to do with that stuff." And two or three other people, Roy Martin came by--I'm trying to remember who else, I think Cy Perkins came by and talked him--talked to him. He went back and talked to a couple of people on the school board. Frank Crenshaw and, I think a man named Ben Willis, and finally they convinced him that he would be able to do more for the schools by going ahead and going over to Council. And I remember Dad laying out in a--on a yellow legal pad requirements to Fred Duckworth before he would serve on Council with him. "You will make sure that the school board gets this amount of money because we need it for this project," and this type of thing and, you know, he didn't make Fred Duckworth sign it or anything like that but he definitely got all the appropriations and the people that he wanted on the school board and this type of thing when he left, before he would agree to serve on City Council. I think the thing that hurt Dad more than anything else was when he finally lost the last election for City Council, and he lost it to Joe Jordan because the black vote was single-shotted for Jordan and very definitely against Dad. Dad took that very hard in that the other two people that ran, of the three, were much more segregationist and this type of thing than Dad was. Dad was also one that at that time could fight with Roy Martin or whoever else that was on Council to get what he felt should be done. They didn't argue out in--in front of the media and this type of thing but they--they always had that secret Monday morning meeting, where they fought out a lot of this stuff between 'em. And Dad was kind of bitterly disappointed from that. He felt the Blacks threw him out and in essence he was the one that really was able to smooth the thing over at that time.

Q: He ... retired then, right, from--from public ... life?

Schweitzer: Right. He still served on the two different college boards and couple of other things but I don't think he ever served on anything more as far as the city was concerned. But Dad felt he had done his fair share by then anyway.

Q: This was in the late 60's wasn't it?

Schweitzer: He served on Council for nine years. That was enough. In essence he really brought his defeat on himself 'cause at that time there wasn't a lot of the fair practice things that go on now. If you were an incumbent you could pick your place on the voting machine ... and let's say, like at that time, there were three people that were up for election/reelection to the City Council. There was Sam Barfield, Bill Ballard and my dad, and those three names were supposed to be first on the ballot. Bill Ballard was new. See, he should have been the third man. Dad was the oldest as far as length of service was concerned, so he should have been first, and in essence he said, "I'm--I'm just kinda tired of this. If I go down I'm not going to worry about it." So he had himself placed third on that ballot. And so Boom he was--he was off. This again the single-shot voting for Joe Jordan.

Q: Sounds like he almost, I guess maybe he wanted to prove something to himself just to see if---

Schweitzer: Yeah. If it worked, fine, if it didn't I'm not going to worry about it. I ran into Joe Jordan, I guess ... no more than a couple or three weeks after the election at the Fireman's Ball. And I went up and congratulated him, told him who I was. He said, "Of all people to--to lose," he said, "I really hated to lose your dad," he said, "he may not have agreed with me on a lot of things, and we fought each other quite a bit but," he said, "at least you knew he was going to take a reasonable stand, it wasn't going to be just because 'well that's just not whatever, whatever, we're not gonna even talk about it anymore, type of thing." And ... they still talked quite a bit up until Dad got sick. _______.

Q: (heavy sigh)

Tape breaks.

Interview resumes.

Schweitzer: We at that time worried more about Norview High School than the rest of them ... because it was the big blue-collar area. They were the more rabid parents, rabid kids. There was more taunting of black kids when they went to school there. But cooler heads prevailed, and there was very, very little problem -- very little problem ... with the kids. There were always ... a police station in all the schools too. One of the orders that Dad definitely put out at that time was, "I want those policemen to stay out of sight and out of the way ... unless it really gets bad. Let the kids work it out of their systems a little bit ... let them calm the thing down." And after the first day or two there was very little problem.

Q: They didn't actually segregate the kids while they were in school like separate classrooms ...

Schweitzer: No.

Q: ... or anything?

Schweitzer: No. No. Once the kids were allowed in the school they were, as far as the administration and that was concerned-- went right into the other classes ... no problem there at all. And I don't think there should've been. I guess I'm much more moderate than my father was at that time. It was a rough time ... the kids, I think, of that era handled themselves extremely well. And I think everybody realized that it was a tough time for everybody. We had a few radicals all over ... on both sides.

Q: Yeah!

Schweitzer: I think the one thing that disturbed the kids at Granby was the one girl who used to come to school in that pink Cadillac -- used to drive the kids up the wall.

Q: Huh! A pink Cadillac?

Schweitzer: Her dad drove a pink Cadillac and had a ... trying to remember whether it was a vinyl top or not, but it was a black top on it.

Q: (laughs)

Schweitzer: Other than that, that's it.

Q: Did they mix up that much with the kids after they ...?

Schweitzer: No. I think that that was the good point to the black kids, they didn't ...

Tape ends.