Interviewer:  --view with Mr. Carroll Walker, 1117 Rockbridge Avenue, Norfolk, Virginia, September 12, 1980.

Carroll:     --my family, well … I have two children, a boy and a girl. And they were born in Norfolk. They both went to school to the usual grade schools in Norfolk and my son went to … he went to University of Richmond where he made Phi Beta Kappa and got a scholarship to Rutgers University. He at present is public- -not … Director of Budget for the Children’s Television Workshop in New York. And my daughter went to OD for a couple of years and then transferred to George Washington University. She came out – I forgot what sh- -I think it was a degree in sociology but she went to work for the American – oh what is it called the … I always get it … National Park and Recreations magazine and then went to the American Association of Retired Persons. Been to Europe a couple of times and back here she’s now- -she was in politics for a little bit in Washington and she said, “No, I better cut that out, better cut that politics part out.” But she’s working now in the communications division I believe it is of OSHA, that very controversial agency in Washington. And she’s doing very well there, and that’s the story of their life.

Interviewer: You said that you went to school in New York School of Industrial Arts.

Carroll: New York School of Industrial Arts.

Interviewer: O.K. And where was that in New York, is that in Manhattan?

Carroll: That was in Manhattan, yes, in New York. It’s in New York City. Yeah.

Interviewer: And that you were studying book illustration?

Carroll: I started out with book illustration, yes. I would have gone on and on but the finances kinda’ interrupted, end of the Depression and everything else.

Interviewer: How did you first become interested in photography?

Carroll: Well, I think I said I always had a latent, a latent interest in it, but I think that was sparked when the … the YMCA back in 1937 held a, what did they call it, a hobby exhibit. I was very- -I had done- -I had never given up painting. I had been painting and particularly scenes of the sea. I had built a number of ship models, I had a collection of other, you might say artifacts pertaining to the sea, and they asked me to display my ship models and to take charge of the maritime exhibit. At the mar- -at the exhibit, the hobby exhibit the Norfolk Photographic Club had a room devoted to photography and I got to know the boys up there and one thing led to the other. I became interested in the- -in photography and I dropped the ship model and painting business and thus became a photographer, I guess.

Interviewer: And you said you started taking wedding photographs in the late 1930’s or early ‘40’s?

Carroll: About 19- -about, I think it was 19- -either 1940 or 1941, when photography, when wedding photography was something very, very, very new, I took my first wedding pictures. I took ‘em on a boat I believe and I took another one down at some friends of mine at Virginia Beach. It was mostly in 1941 because there was a rash of weddings because so many boys thought they were going into the Army. And that’s when I started out. And baby pictures, I took … I used to take baby pictures all the time. In facts I have- -since then I have taken … well I’ve got a wedding book for me for, I think in December, and I took the boys’ baby pictures when … yeah I took the boys ___________ 24, 25, 30 years ago. There was a lot of that around here.

Interviewer: I guess. … You said that during those years you were working for the railroad. Was this the Norfolk and Western?

Carroll: Norfolk and Western Railroad, yeah, for many years.

Interviewer: Can you describe how your photographic interests have changed over the years.

Carroll: Well it’s hard to say. I have gotten away- -I don’t take baby pictures any more. I’ve stopped that. And I probably will curtail my wedding pictures now. Unfortunate part about weddings is they take place on weekends, and if you got a plumber to do a job on a weekend he really would soak you. Photographers don’t always do that. But I want more time now on weekends and I’ve done- -taken 2500 weddings, I think I’ve- -I’ve done my share of recording that event for posterity.

Interviewer: You said you took out a photographer’s license to protect yourself. Can you remember what year that was?

Carroll: In the late- -in the late ‘40’s.

Interviewer: How has Harry Mann influenced your work?

Carroll: Well probably by the excellence of his work you might say. You try to do as well or maybe a little bit better, or try to improve on it if that’s possible.  Harry Mann was an excellent photographer.

Interviewer: And you said he was photographing in Norfolk from 1907 to 1924.

Carroll: Yeah.

Interviewer: And then he left the city because of ill health and died a few years later.

Carroll: Died in Lynchburg, I think, in 1926.

Interviewer: And you said he had to take his photographs on plates. He had to set up a tripod and use plates.

Carroll: Yes in the beginning it was all done on plates and I think towards the latter part of his photographic career he was using- -he was using film because I saw some of it up in the State Chamber, but unfortunately that had deteriorated to such an extent you couldn’t reproduce anything on the sheets of film. It was all stuck together.

Interviewer: You said that “Those Were the Days” column in the Norfolk newspapers grew from the newspaper request. Can you tell me what years it ran?

Carroll: Roughly speaking, from about 1970 to about 1977. That’s roughly speaking, it started somewhere in there. They had called me for pictures before then but I think we just got into it without realizing what we were getting into, you know. That might sound bad but, I mean, there’s- -but it doesn’t mean that, you just start something and next thing you’re into it up to your neck and you like it.

Interviewer: OK. … Again, when did you first conceive of publishing a pictorial history of Norfolk?

Carroll: I never actually- -to use those words, I never actually conceived of it, I used to think once in a while it would be nice to put these pictures all together but realizing the cost and the involved publicity that was necessary, that it was just a fond dream and I dismissed it from my mind. Until Jimmy Jerd- -Jimmy and Fred Jerdan who published the Virginia Beach book came up here, came to see me in 1974, I believe, and asked me to- -would I be interested in publishing a book on Norfolk using my pictures and we eventually agreed upon it.

Interviewer: Can you tell me how to spell Jordan, last name.

Carroll: J-O-R-D-A-N.

Interviewer: J-o-r-d-a-n.

Carroll: Yeah, some call it Jordan, some call it Jerdan. I’ve always- -we’ve always called it Jerdan.

Interviewer: And you said that three things that you wanted in the book was: photographer Harry Mann’s pictures.

Carroll: A picture and an article on him.

Interviewer: Right. A section devoted to the Militia of Norfolk.
Carroll: That’s right.

Interviewer: This is the Norfolk Light Artillery Blues?

Carroll: That’s one of them. There were- -

Interviewer: O.K.

Carroll: There were a number of them here. That was- -that’s the main one in there. Cause they’re still- -they’re the only one that’s still in existence.

Interviewer: And Steinbergers.

Carroll: Steinhilbers. Put Steinberger in there __________ they’ll come lookin’ for ya’.

Interviewer: O.K. Can you spell that for me?

Carroll: S-T-E-I-N-H-I-L-B-E-R-S.

Interviewer: B-e-r-s.

Carroll: Yeah he was J- -no, his brother, his brother, I think, yeah his brother owns thirty acres______________. And usually they referred to him as Steiny, S-T-E-I-N-Y.

Interviewer: S-t-e-i-n-y.

Carroll: Yeah.

Interviewer: And you said you worked on the book for five years. For about five years that you took the pap- -no, I’m sorry, you took pictures out of the paper that had been running for about five years.

Carroll: Up to that time. You see they ran … they ran about two years after that, the papers- -I didn’t know whether the paper was going ahead and publish ‘em or not. But … because they wouldn’t … well … it didn’t involve the- -I was afraid at first because of the book coming out the paper would say, ‘cause they’re funny down there. They’re not like they used to be. And they would, could just put the ax down and say “No more,” but no they didn’t, they kept on running ‘em for about another two, about another two years or so. Until they just- -when they got this new group in down there and they changed the whole format from Lighthouse to Commentary, and they changed the whole format and they decided then to drop the pictures. Which they do- -in fact that was rather fortunate and it is a little unusual … I’m not being employed by the paper as such. Occasionally I have done some jobs for the paper, but to have a feature article every Sunday, practically every Sunday that ran for seven and a half years was … a little unusual.

Interviewer: Can you tell me again how you get your pictures.

Carroll: Well … I just run ‘em, just run across ‘em. I learn about people having certain pictures that I’m looking for or people also knowing my interest in the subject calling me and either giving them to me outright or lending them to me. In which case I copy them and return them to ‘em.

Interviewer: And you said that Harry Blackforks – is it B-L    - -

Carroll: It was Frank Blackford. B-L-A-C-K-F-O-R-D.

Interviewer: …c-k-f-o-r-d. Blackford and you went to look at Harry Mann’s pictures in the Virginia State Library?

Carroll: Yeah, they had a collection of ‘em. Now, if- -and you mentioned something about the collection before- -if you were to have, let’s say, if we were to say that everything that Harry Mann had, everything he had taken, every one of his negatives (chuckle) and call that a collection it would probably fill this, more than fill this room up. Because the man, it’s just amazing, I’ve been going through, I’ve been digging up on a certain subject – I don’t want to mention it right now because it’s not very well known but it’s going to be very interesting when I get this, get it in a book – but a certain subject I have been checking on for four and a half years now, I got a lot of stuff, I got a file that thick on this one subject that’ll only take about two or three pages in my book. When I see what Harry Mann has taken, going through the old papers - and see he took a lot of pictures for the paper. And I wouldn’t, I would say he probably took thousands and thousands and thousands of pictures. ‘Cause I’m just amazed that when I see- -I pick up something I’ve never seen that picture before, it’s a little obscure book or an article, “Photo by Harr”- -or just “H.C. Mann” on the picture.

Interviewer: Hm. So that’s how he earned his living, in other words selling pictures to the paper?

Carroll: Mm?

Interviewer: He was a photographer full time, and sold pictures to the paper- -

Carroll: Well, oh, he was a commercial photographer. His studio was on the corner of Bank and Main St. In the beginning, well every now and then we’d call him for pictures or people would have ‘em. You see when he was taking pictures the paper had no photographers. And I know, I’ve seen some “Taken for the Virginian Pilot by H. C. Mann.”

Interviewer: So, in other words he was- -

Carroll: He wasn’t, he wasn’t employed by them as such. He was not in their employ, but they would ask him could he get a picture for them, you see like they might, like the- -every now and then they used to call me, you see, for a picture and I would, back in years gone, way back- -but they only had two photographers and they’d call me, “Could you get a picture.” For instance, some time they’d have a social affair over at the Country Club and Frances Sandburg, the Social Editor, she would call me and says, “Carroll, I can’t get one of my photographers out there in time to get such-and-such a thing at the Club tonight. Would you run over there and get it?” So I’d just, hop-skip-and-a-jump I’d run over and get the pictures for them, you see, and they’d send a photo- -they’d send somebody from the lab out here and he’d pick up- -I put the negatives in ________- -and he’d take ‘em on down there and … an’ they’d process ‘em and of course they’d pay me accordingly, see. So Mann probably- -and once in a while I’d process the picture for them, you see. So that’s the way Mann probably worked the same way.  I imagine that Mann made the print for them.

Interviewer: Thank you, Mr. Walker.

[Break in Recording]

Interviewer: You were talking about the negatives of Harry Mann in the State Library- -

Carroll: Yeah. Yeah, well, Frank called ‘em up and found out they had them there. So he called me about two weeks later – we were talking maybe of going up and get about borrow, beg or steal maybe about 25 plates or pictures and run ‘em in the paper. And he called me and he says the paper had authorized and he wanted me to go along with him to help identify the pictures because the paper had authorized him to do so. So I was gladly went up there to see ‘em and lord ‘till we got up there we didn’t realize there was so many of ‘em. We spent the whole day up there looking through them, and _______- -and of course we found there were plates and instead of putting aside 25 plates I said, “That old stingy company of yours, take more that that.” So we put aside 75 plates. “Course the Chamber wouldn’t let us take them back but what the paper did, they sent up a couple of darkroom technicians and they ran off the prints up there ‘cause the Chamber had a darkroom. And they made the prints themselves and gave me a set of them. And … then … I was talking to somebody about a year or so later about them – he had been up there – and I said I think the State Library- -I think they’re all in the State Library now. So I checked with the State Library, lo’and behold the State Chamber had turned ‘em over to the Library. So I knew we’d never get ‘em back to Norfolk. Incidentally when we came back we talked to Dick Gardner - Dick is vice-president, I think, in charge of public relations. Well Dick knew the State Chamber pre- -secretary, and Dick wrote him a letter to see if we couldn’t get those plates sent back to Norfolk, but they wouldn’t turn ‘em back. _____ they had no business with them.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Carroll: It irks me.

Interviewer: It does. What was the reaction of the community to your book Norfolk A Pictorial History? From Those Were the Days collection by Carroll Walker.

Carroll: Couldn’t have been any better. People, in the minute that book came out people began calling me, reminiscing. One lady called me up – one picture, one picture in the book, she was the first one to call me [turning pages] eighteen, thirteen. The fellow who gave me this picture, he just died about a year ago. He had three of them, he didn’t know where they were taken, but wanted to know if I’d like to have them and I said I’d be delighted to have them and I ran down and found out it was election day in Norfolk in nineteen hundred and … nineteen hundred and three. [turning pages] Where did I have that picture, any- -anyway, it was a picture of Main and Granby Street and the street corner- -it’s a crowded Saturday afternoon, I remember them very well. And she said when she saw that picture she started crying because it reminded her of her mother who used to take her downtown once a week when she went shopping, and she said, “You know, we’d go down to Watts.” Well that was- -Watts was ______________ on the corner of Main and Granby, the build- -here it is, this picture here. This is Main and Granby. And she said, “We’d go down, she would take me down,” and I was so thrilled, to use her words, “we’d go down on the trolley car.” And that was a woman’s nov- -it was a sort of dry goods, millinery and novelties. And it was one of the most popular places in the city. And Haynes Furniture Company moved in there years ago, but they went out of business during the Depression. But she said, “When I saw those people with those hats and those dresses,” she said, “it just reminded me so much,” and she says, you know, “after,” she says, after Mother- -after Mother did her shopping we went up to Heiler’s.” Heiler’s was a chain soda fountain store, no drugs or anything, this was purely _________ and soda, ‘cross the way from the Monticello on Granby St. And she said, “We’d go up there and Mother’d get me a chocolate ice cream soda,” and she says, “I always looked forward,” and she says, “Mister,” and she was 73 when she talked to me. And she said, “Mr. Walker, I was just, I was so thrilled,” and says, “I just, I just couldn’t hold the tears back.” Well, so many others. One lady got a copy of the book, I knew her real well, an old family ‘round here, and she said when she got home that evening- -oh, no that afternoon, she got home ‘bout one o’clock, she picked up my book. And she says, “You know, before I knew it Bill was home from the office and I hadn’t fixed dinner.” [big laugh] But the reaction has been very great, and many people have asked me, “When are you going to get out another one, why don’t you get out another one?” I didn’t expect to get out another. I figured that was the last- -and that’s why I tried unfortunately to cram so much stuff into this book. I wish I had a few of these pictures now, but I’ll get some more. But … it has been very favorable, I …I’m trying to think of a [turning pages]. Well just like this, just like that, just like the reaction of this doctor. I don’t know who he is, I never met him. But just like he said, it’s in here … “in reviewing your magnificent illustrated history of Norfolk.” He was a doctor down in Concord, North Carolina. In fact, and so many people … you see ________ it’s personalized. They’ve seen things in there about the family. Now I’ve got a picture in there of the Norfolk College for Young Ladies. You know the building is still standing on College Place. Well I got a picture in here, and just about two months before the book closed I ran- -a friend of mine had this picture, we got talking about it one night and they forget these things. This picture here: that’s the 1895 graduating class. Norfolk College for Young Ladies. I got a list of all the people in here. Do you know, about fifteen have called me or stopped me on the street and told me they had recognized either their mother, grandmother or an aunt in that picture. [turning pages] And one of them, about two years ago it was a little fellow called me up from Suffolk. And he said, “I understand you have a book out on Norfolk that shows a picture of the graduating class of 1895 of the Norfolk College.” I said, “Yes, I do.” And he says, “My mother’s in that picture.” He must have been up in his ear- -his late sixties. He says, “My mother’s in that picture. He says, “Where can I get a copy?” “Well,” I said, “I think I can get you a copy.” He said, “Well you get me a copy, I’ll come into Norfolk and pick it up, tomorrow.” And he came in and he was just tickled to death his mother was in there. People remember riding- -remind going down to Ocean View and Virginia Beach … remind ‘em coming in. And this- -these … and I remember this myself so well. These were the two German warships that were captured in … they were cap- -they came in here- -well they were rigs, you should say, and they started raiding, and they had som- -quite a lot of allied shipping. And they came into Norfolk about 1915. They were running out of fuel, old coal burners, and the British and French warships were looking for them. And they couldn’t outfit themselves in time and replenish their coal supply because they only- -they only had- -a belligerent only had about 24 hours, and then you had to get out before you became interned. Well they couldn’t do it so they were interned. Now they were over there by the … they were over there by the … I think it’s Dry Dock # 1, and there was a lot of salvage material over there. So I understand they got permission to use that salvage material, and what they did, you see, they built themselves a little German village over there. And school children used to go over there, and see it, you see. And … and then finally they … finally the Navy needed, I think the Navy needed such space that they meant to use and … let me see how did that work out … we- -they took it over, but about that time we declared war on Germany. And of course the ships were confiscated and the men then became prisoners, you see. No, they had the run of the city because I used to see them all around town. And friends of mine, a member of their family, their father said that he used to entertain the German officers here in Norfolk, and the sort of thing, had over for dinner. And you saw the German sailors all over the city. But then they went to Phila- -they were- -one was- -they were turned into troop ships, that’s it. And a fun- -funny story about it: After this picture appeared in the paper with my story on it, there was more to it than this, a friend – he died last year, Col. Addison Hagar, he was in both World War I and World War II. And he called me up and he says, “Walker, that picture you had in the paper yesterday morning,” and he says, “you know that brought back memories,” he says, “that Prince” – it was Prince Eidelfriedrich. Well, he was a graduate of VMI and he came out, he had a commission in the Marine Corps as a Second Lieutenant. He graduated just about the time we went to war, just before. So he was, he says, “When I was sent up to Philadelphia with nine other junior officers, we were to go to France and join,” - I think it was the Fifth Marine Brigade, the one that did- -had such a bang-up affair in ______ Wood – and he says, “You know, that Crown … Prince Eidelfriedrich had been turned into a troop ship and renamed the Von Steuben” – or the Germans would call it Von Stoiben, not Von Stewben – “and that’s the ship I went over on.” Things like that, you know, that’s what meant so much to these people. And …[turning pages] just take like this one back here, in back of the school there. That was the old line that came up from downtown and went down to what they call Piney Point, now the Naval Base, you see. And you had a line here but it didn’t- -it didn’t make any connection. That was Gray’s Pharmacy. And that’s why you’ve got that vacant space behind Gray’s, because the streetcar came back there.

Interviewer: Oh.

Carroll: See it came up, and one picture I’m looking for in connection with that streetcar. It came up from downtown, it came up Granby Street I think to 20th Street, came down 20th Street I think it was to Killam Avenue and then went over the Norfolk and Western Railroad on a trestle. I remember that. The trestle burned in the twe- -early twenties. And then went up to Killam Avenue, see went up- -they went up Debree, yeah went up Debree to 35th Street I think it was. And then went down 35th to Killam Ave. then up Killam Ave. to 47th St. and down 47th behind Gray’s Pharmacy and out onto what was then Myers Avenue.

Interviewer: Is your second book going to be similar to the first?

Carroll: Yes, it’s going to be, I guess we should say in essence it’s going to be an update, and a possible … comparison book, comparing- -well it can be done, we would compare one maybe one corner with another corner the way it looks, maybe, let’s see how would we put that. Well I can say maybe some particular building on the corner of Granby and City Hall – oh, yeah we’ll take the way Monticello Hotel used to look. And what we got there now, that horrible tobacco barn.

Interviewer: [chuckle]

Carroll: That’s what it looks like is those tobacco barns down on Cary Street in Richmond. As some fellow said if I could just smell that sweet, sweet tobacco emanating from that building I’d think I was in Richmond.

Interviewer: True. Besides the book coming out, what are your plans for the future?

Carroll: You say.

Interviewer: [laughter]

Carroll: I have no idea. I just take things as they come and go.    

Interviewer: And, this last question: do you have an heir as Norfolk’s historical photographer?  

Carroll: An heir?

Interviewer: An heir. You didn’t know of anybody?

Carroll: No. When I kick the bucket that’ll be it, I guess. ‘Cause my son’s in New York, he’ll never- -and my daughter, she’s in Washington, she’s got too good a job, she’d never get the salary here that she’s getting in Washington. And she’s up for a good promotion now, she does good, she does- -she’s a good little photographer. She …[chuckle] I’d be making proofs sometimes, I’d have her help me make proofs when I was shooting a wedding and she would … when she got through she’d give me a bill, you know for 2 cents a proof. I told her I’d pay her 2 cents a proof so she- -when she was through she’d give me that little, a bill and I owed her about 40 cents maybe for something.

Interviewer: [chuckle]

Carroll: No, she, she got fooling around with photography and she went to OD for about a couple of years and then she finished up at George Washington University. And then she went to work for – who’d she go to work for – the … American Association of Retired Persons and she left that and went to Europe and - God knows when that was, back in the sixties, I guess – and then she came on back and she went to … then she went to work for the American Asso—American Association of Retired Persons and she worked there for a while and went ba- -went to Europe again. She was over there a couple of years. Oh before she went over there, ________ a story, she was taking pictures around Washington. I gave her a nice camera for Christmas. And she was selling them to the Washington Star. And- -but she’d send me the negatives to process, you know, and I’d look at a batch, I’d get the negatives and I’d make up a batch of pictures of people sittin’, walkin’ or talkin’ around in a park and doing something like that, playing baseball or sittin’ on- -a bunch I remember that, one shot there in particular, sitting on the … on the Mall in front of … on Constitution Avenue. And it was probably a hot summer day and the government employees were out there on the lawn eating their lunch, you know, and she had just got a long shot of that whole thing which, in itself, is nothing, you know. And people talking on a bench, but she sold a batch of ‘em to the Washington Star. __________ said, “What in the world did you- -you’re just wasting film doing this, you know.” She sold ‘em to the Washington Star, and lo and behold they took- -they picked about ten of ‘em and they made a story out of ‘em. And the caption was, the different  things that the people were doing in the park, you know, and they tied ‘em all together with the caption, “What do people do in the park?”

Interviewer: Ah, that’s a good idea.

Carroll: Sure. And the centerpiece was this Mall picture. What do the people do in the park. What do they on the Mall. Lunchtime, the government employees come out and eat their lunch. [laughter] Then she found an old, an umbrella shop up there, an umbrella repair shop. I believe she told me at the time she learned it was only another one like it in Chicago. It was in Chicago. There were only two repair shops in the country, as she was informed. And Jackie Kennedy used to come there with her umbrellas, and that fellow had a rice night- -a right nice clientele. So she wrote a story up on that, different types of umbrella handles, you know, they’re made of this and made of that and fashioned like this and fashioned like that. But the stor- -there were- -and then she did one on newspaper boys and one on- -on the … you know in Washington almost every other corner downtown in somebody selling flowers, you know. And she did an article on the flow- -a picture, pictorial article on the flower vendors. And then she … then she had … you know the Washington Star puts out something like that, you know like this Parade Magazine. I don’t know what they call it but it’s a Sunday supplement, and they always have a big colored picture on there. So she was living in Georgetown at this time. She came across the- -she was coming across the Key Bridge and it was right around sunset, the sun had gone down, was going down. And you know they have a lot of boating and canoe clubs up there. So she … she happened to look down, she had one shot left in the camera. A little Yashika. And the canoes had already been pulled up – it was an L-shaped pier – and the canoes had been pulled up, they were all bottoms up. You couldn’t see the sun but you could see some of a reflection in the top part of the picture, if I remember correctly. And she just went over and took it. And you know she took some of these pictures up to the Washington Star and they picked that one. She got around fifty bucks for it.

Interviewer: Wow!

Carroll: And it was on the Sunday- -about two weeks later it was on the cover of the Washington Star.

Interviewer: My goodness.

Carroll: But she does … she does right well. She hasn’t … and she done a number of articles for different magazines and that sort of thing. But she has- -her work now is such that … she doesn’t have the time to do that she used to have. And she’s- -she has- -now she’s gone up on this trip to Canada, Maine and Canada, and she’ll come back with a lot of good pictures. She just has … I always felt that if she wanted to go out on her own she could make a go of it.

Interviewer: Thank you, Mr. Walker.

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