Jordan: This is an interview with Dr. Harrison B. Wilson, who is and has been the President of Norfolk State College, Norfolk, Virginia since November 1975. This interview is being conducted on October 6, 1978 in Dr. Wilson's office which is located on the third floor of the Lyman Beecher Brooks Library which is on the Norfolk State College campus. The interviewer is Ervin Leon Jordan, Jr., a graduate student representing the Oral History program of Old Dominion University. Before I start, before we get into your past 3 years as President, I would like for you to tell me something about your family and background, your parents or your occupation or your travels.

Wilson: Alright. On my mother's side, my mother's mother was a schoolteacher. As a matter of fact the interesting part of my mother's side of my family was that there wasn't any of her family ever slaves. Her mother graduated from Wilberforce University in 1901 and they grew up in Xenia, Ohio. And she went to a little town in Kentucky from Xenia by the name of Falmouth, Kentucky where she became a school teacher. She met a young man who worked around the City Hall. He was kind of a politician and she married him and that was on my mother's side. On my father's side, it's a very interesting family because (for me to be here in Virginia) our roots more or less in America started in Big Island, Virginia where my grandfather, my father's father, was a slave. And he served as an orderly to a confederate Colonel for 3 years during the Civil War and when the war ended he left and went to Kentucky, my grandfather did. He was eighteen years old in 1866.

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So, my father is the baby of the family, they had 15 children and he is the only one living and he's 90 years old (Jordan: That's wonderful, 90 years old!) So while my father's family, once my grandfather moved to Kentucky and married, he started a large farm and developed the farm. But it was interesting while he had a big farm and had money, they didn't think of that as being as important as an education. So, my mother's side of the family had the education but not any money and my father's side didn't have the education but did have money. (Jordan: Good combination) That was the beginning really of our family and so they settled in Falmouth, Kentucky, my mother and father did. And I had 4 brothers… 3 brothers and 4 sisters and two of the sisters are deceased. But all the… In terms of the education of my mother and father, my mother only had a tenth grade education; she got married and my father finished eighth grade. That was all the formal education they had. However, my father learned the bricklaying trade, the masonry trade, construction business, and he worked at that many of his early years. So, as I say, we had eight children. All of us finished college. Most of us worked our way through college. One of my brothers is a lawyer. A sister and a brother are chemists and another brother is a school teacher and my older sister was a nurse and she's retired now. (Jordan: Successful family) Well, in a sense, I guess. I was observing an interesting article in the paper the other day where they had done a survey, conducted a survey of middle-class blacks. And one of the responses to a question why do you feel you are fairly successful and who played the most important part in your life?  In every instance they said their parents. So, middle-class whites that have arrived believe that it is important you have good parents, regardless of the economic background. (Jordan: So the family still is the key?) The family still is the key, right. On that survey it was the key and that's my attitude too. I think the family is very important. Not money, not even a beautiful home or material things but the family is the key.

Jordan: You seem to know an awful lot about your family background. Did Arthur Haley have anything to do with that or is it just part of your bringing up?

Wilson: No, really, I was always interested in my background. I had never heard of Big Island, Virginia for instance. It's up near Roanoke. I had never met anyone from Big Island, Virginia. But I heard a student on the campus in front of the library tell another student that she was from Big Island, VA and when I recognized Big Island, Virginia, she said she was surprised

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because no one else did. No, I would have to say that the Roots didn't have anything to do with it except now it has kind of made me feel that I should go back to Big Island and find out as much as I can about my grandfather and his parents. I don't know anything about my grandfather's parents.

Jordan: You were born in New York, I believe?

Wilson: Right, I was the fifth child and the first one born in Amsterdam, New York. The others were born in Falmouth, Kentucky.

Jordan: What other occupations have you had during your lifetime, Dr. Wilson? Have you always been in education or have you climbed the long hard road through brick-masonry or labor or anything of this nature or just what exactly have you done? At this present stage and time, you're President of a successful institution and everyone knows that you just don't set out to be a President of an institution right off.

Wilson: Well, you're absolutely right, I tell you. I started out being a member of a large family and in the middle of it; much of the work and responsibility fell on me. And in terms of jobs, I guess when I was seven I sold newspapers on the streets and the profit was a penny a paper, so you didn't make very much money. And then I started shining shoes on the street to earn money. You just couldn't find jobs and you had to think of ways that you could earn money. So, shining shoes with one of those shoe shine boxes at a nickel a shine. It was really what got me started in terms of working and realizing even with that meager kind of income, if you worked, you could accumulate something. From the time I started shining shoes I bought my own clothes for school. I bought a bicycle. I found that I could have what I wanted if I worked and that was one of the greatest lessons I ever learned because in the community I grew up in as a kid, most people didn't (work). They used other means of getting money and most of them ended up in trouble with the law. So then I moved from that. When I started in junior high school I was an athlete and that kind of changed my life because that made me feel that my self-image was improved and the teachers took an interest in me and the coaches also, and I moved from that to high school. And then I started working as a waiter in hotels and restaurants. A waiter, bellhop, I held all of those jobs until I was seventeen. And when I was seventeen, I took the exam to go to West Point. I had always wanted to be an army

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officer. That was my ambition really and I just knew I was going to go to West Point. Well, at that time there probably wasn't more than one Black cadet at West Point (I think Benjamin Davis) and his father was a General. And I took the exam. It was a statewide exam. And out of about 300 and some candidates I finished number two in the state and the fellow that finished number one was my classmate and he was an Italian. And he took the assignment and he became a General and one of the foremost missile men in America, and in the world. He became General Rocco Petrone and right now he is retired but he is with Rockwell International as an engineer. And he had to quit the army because he had six children and couldn't support them on the salary that he was making. (Jordan: And he was a General?) A General, right, and four of them were in college at the same time. Generals probably only make $60,000 dollars a year or $65 maybe. They have some fringe benefits but cash money that's about it. And you just can't send four children to college at the same time on that kind of salary. So, anyway Rocco got the slot and that broke my heart. So, I went back to school and asked the teacher could I take a test to finish high school early because I was going to join the Navy. And she took me up on it. She gave me an exam and I passed it and at 17, I joined the Navy. (Jordan: How long did you serve in the Navy?) Two and a half years. (Jordan: Two and a half years?) Yes, quite an experience. You got to travel. I traveled all over, well mainly the Pacific. I was the first Black to become an operating room technician in the Navy. That was the same as a person who assists the surgeon to do surgery. (Jordan: And you didn't have any medical experience?) I didn't have any medical experience. What they did they tested you and if you scored at a certain aptitude, at a certain level, then you had a choice of several schools that they would send you to, and they sent me to Pharmacist's Mates school. And then after I finished that school they sent me to this surgery technician… operating room technician's school. And then I went to Pearl Harbor where I worked in a hospital as an operating room technician. And that was quite an experience because I was only there about 8 or 9 months, but I served with a couple of doctors that later became outstanding plastic surgeons in the country. One of their names was Dr. Sorenson and Dr. Sorenson became a plastic surgeon that dealt with people who had serious burns. That was his specialty. And he set up practice in Boston and became, not only nationally known, but internationally

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known. I thought that I wanted to be a doctor as a result of that experience.  And when I was discharged at 19, I went to college but there again athletics haunted me. It was very hard to play three sports. I played football, basketball and baseball in college. It was hard for me to do that and maintain my laboratory work on a regular basis. So I either had to give up athletics or give up premed, and at 19 I gave up premed. And I have kind of regretted it at times but I think athletics kind of prepared me for life in addition to the other experiences I had working and the other experiences of coming from a family that believed in going to church and doing the right thing and so forth. I think athletics set the tone for me. Athletics taught me that life is hard and you lose sometimes and it's the person who can adjust to losing and not let it get him down and continue to go on is the person who is successful. So I always was taught if you could carry that over into life then it would be hard to beat you. I have found that that is true. That when you can adjust to adversity through practice in doing it and through having a strong commitment, religious commitment of faith, that you believe that if you continue trying, if you continue doing the right thing that things will work out all right for you but you have to make the initial steps and you have to do the work. You can't expect someone to help you or some divine being to come to your aid when you haven't done anything yourself. So that's part of my philosophy and as I say between church, religion, my family and athletics, I think it helped to develop the foundation that I think I have.

Jordan: You continued in education to the Ph.D. degree, the years in between that educationally?

Wilson: Well, what I did, when I got out of the Navy I was kind of mixed up like everybody else and I had several scholarships, athletic scholarships to big universities and just didn't know what I wanted to do. And I went on a trip south back to where my family was from and I visited Kentucky State, a predominantly black institution and I fell in love with it. It just seemed to fit what I wanted and so I went there and finished college in about 3 years and one summer. And I went right on to Indiana University and in one year I got my Master's degree. (Jordan: What subject is your Master's?) Well, it was Health Science and Administration. And then I left there and went right to Jackson State College which was a predominantly black college in Mississippi, a very small school at that time. It had about 600 students.

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And I went there just to stay a year to take up another person's place. I became the head basketball coach. I was the youngest college coach in the country at the time. I was 23. I didn't have any college experience or anything, but it was a small institution. It wasn't the most attractive place in the world. And what I believe (is) that you go where the opportunities are and I went to Mississippi. Well, instead of staying one year I stayed sixteen. Right, I stayed 16 years. I married while I was in graduate school and went on to Mississippi and started coaching and teaching. So I stayed there in athletics and taught school and just fell in love with Mississippi, and I was there during the… what we consider the real turmoil years in race relations. The development… Well, when the 1954 decision was passed which was to desegregate schools, you know, that whole bit… why everything changed in Mississippi. While we had pretty good race relations (before that time) after the 1954 decision, they developed what they called the Citizens Council. And the Citizens Council was much like the Nazi's SS troops that would spy on you, would hire people to spy within your community, would burn your house, would get you fired from your job, would harass you in every way possible. The Citizens Council was infamous in a sense that it lowered the morale of people so, because you became so suspicious of your neighbors. And, of course, this brought on the Freedom Riders, young black and white youngsters coming from all parts of the country, and Jackson, Mississippi was more or less the headquarters. Tougaloo College is the private institution - really was the headquarters because… (that's just out side of Jackson) because it was a private school and no one could keep them from meeting there. And, of course, one of my very good friends was Medgar Evers. He and I were about the same age and he was the Field Director for the NAACP and was leading voter registration drives and the whole bit. And since I was on the road a lot and he was on the road a lot, we would get our cars serviced about the same time, at the same gas station. And while they were being serviced we talked many hours and we became very good friends. I respected him. He was a lot like an artist who would give up everything for his art, a great artist or a musician. There aren't many people like that. He was giving up everything for what he believed in and he didn't make any money much; his shoes were rundown; his clothes were not the best at all. He drove a car that was falling apart and I would question him quite often. How could he do this? He was married, had two or three children. How could he put himself in such jeopardy? Knowing that he might get killed and what not, and I told him that I would never do that. I believed in all that he was

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doing but I couldn't sacrifice myself and my family for this, but he believed in it. And two weeks before he was killed I got him to take out $10,000 worth of insurance and it was not even fully processed when he was killed. And one of the reasons I still admire the Prudential Life Insurance Company was because they paid off that policy and that was the only insurance policy he had, which buried him and gave his wife and children a little bit of income. (Jordan: That's fascinating!) He was a fascinating person, real fascinating. In addition, I taught Meredith who made that walk from Memphis and also integrated Ole Miss University. I got to meet all kinds of people from all walks of life. I knew Martin Luther King very well. I knew… It’s hard for me to remember some names. One of the leaders of the movement, Civil Rights Movement, in Mississippi was a druggist, was a pharmacist by profession and he's still living and I have had an opportunity to see him several times, and several occasions. (Aaron Henry (?)-ed.). But these were the real heroes of the Civil Rights Movement, the young people and a few black and white leaders who were willing to sacrifice their lives for a cause. They were in a minority, just a few of them; the rest of us were followers. I worked at a state institution and could not be active outwardly but I would collect clothes and I would collect blankets. I would get food and I would bring it around to the various churches. All of us that could not afford to come out in the open would work behind the scene like that. And that's what made the Citizens Council so dangerous because they would watch to see who was helping. These people had to get the food from some place. They had to get money when they went to jail and everything. And I was in Mississippi when they put the dogs on the people at the fair grounds. And the National Guard was called out when they integrated Ole Miss and I knew Ross Barnett, the governor of the state. As a matter of fact I have a document that he signed for recognition for our team during that particular period. So the Mississippi experience to me was (it) enriched my life more than any thing else. When I look back you wonder how you made it because in those days you couldn’t stay at any of the hotels – the major hotels, you couldn't eat in any of the restaurants. When I traveled with my team we would take sandwiches and if we were going from Jackson to Houston, we would stop at Grambling College and eat lunch or stop there in time to eat dinner and then we wouldn't stop to eat again until we got to our destination. You begin to learn early where there were hotels you can stay in. They were usually black hotels and, of course, most of those hotels were very much run down and what not but it was all you had. When we look

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back now on that experience of a lack of accommodations and what not, we enjoy them. I enjoy going into a nice hotel, and eating a good dinner because I know what went into breaking down those barriers. It means a lot to my generation and I hope some day somehow we can get younger people to really think about what happened during that period that caused them to have certain benefits that they have today. So my Mississippi experience, that's what I call it, I called it my fun years. I was relatively young as I said. I had a lot of success as a coach. I was known nationally. But I got tired of it, it became routine every year. I knew I had a certain number of players and I was winning all the time. I won eight out of ten games, every ten games I coached 8 of them we won over a period of 16 years, and I lost 4 home games in 16 years, only four. And so, I wanted more of a challenge. I felt I could do more than coach. A good friend of mine was the President of Tennessee State and he had been after me to come up there as his assistant, as his administrative assistant and finally in 1967 I made the move to Nashville. I retired from coaching as of 11 years ago and decided then that I was going to be a college president some day. I set that as my goal when I left athletics. It took me 8 years. I thought I could have done it in five. That was my goal, five years was my goal, and it took me 8 years. Then I started doing the things that an administrator does. I didn't tell anybody that that was my goal. My wife was the only one who knew it. I was aggressive; I worked hard. I did all the things really that you do when you want to be promoted. I went to church; I worked with young people; I taught Sunday School. I coached a little league team. I spent the rest of the time with my family. I held down five jobs at one time at Tennessee State. (Jordan: Five jobs?) Yes, five different (jobs). I had 3 offices. I taught school full-time and that was one office. I was in charge of the Cluster Program; that was another office. I was in charge of the Co-op Education Program; that was another office. I worked as an assistant in the Development Program at Tennessee State and that was another office. The other thing that I did was conducted a five year projection study, enrollment scope projection study for Tennessee State. Now those were all the things I was doing and you would have to call three different offices to catch me. I was able to raise money. I raised over a half a million dollars there and I had a very fine budget of my own. I could travel anywhere I wanted to. I worked with Industry. I brought people in; I had 10 executives on loan at one time and this was before the depression.

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This was before inflation set in and industries began to have troubles. But for one time we had ten professors on loan from business and industry. Since I've been at Norfolk State we've been able to have two and they were both from the same company, IBM. But when I was at Tennessee State we had ten at one time and that gave those ten teachers that they replaced a chance to go away to school, with full salary. So, it was a real advantage.

Stopped 25:59

Jordan: Your family, Dr. Wilson, for instance your wife Dr. (Lucy R.) Wilson is a person of some position at Old Dominion University here in Norfolk and we feel at least - I talked to other people - they all speak very highly of her. I was wondering if there is a possibility that she may someday become a college president herself? What kind of problem would that cause you?

Wilson: Well, it really wouldn't cause me any unless we would have to be separated for one reason. We would never like to be separated. We have always believed in keeping the family together. As a matter of fact, when I took this position at Norfolk State, she was offered the Assistant Vice Chancellor's (position) for the State Board of Regents for Tennessee which would have led to a presidency of a college, in her own right. But she gave that up for me and my career and I think she's kind of that way. Basically, she's a real fine professional but she would rather be just a mother and stay at home; she really would. But now there isn't a whole lot of chance of that though Mr. Jordan because we have six children and with five still going to school. To be realistic she almost has to work for us to be able to keep them in the kind of school that they are in.

Jordan: You have five children attending institutions of higher education?

Wilson: Well, we have right now - we have two: one's in law school at the University of Virginia; one has already finished law school from Harvard and then the second one is in at the University of Virginia law school now, and the third one is a junior premed major at Dartmouth. And then two of my children are in preparatory school in Massachusetts. So we only have one at home that's home full-time. She's 9 years old and she goes to an elementary school in Virginia Beach.

Jordan: Your oldest son, I understand… I heard that he's a lawyer of some repute?

Wilson: Right, he is. He's with King and Spalding Law Firm. It's one of the most

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prestigious in the state of Georgia. It happens to be the law firm of our President, Jimmy Carter and his closest friend is one of the senior partners of the law firm, Charles Kirbo. By the way I was invited to the White House on Wednesday. I was in the White House, Wednesday at the invitation of Charles Kirbo who as I say is a confidant of the President and (I) also talked to President Carter for a half hour. I talked to Charles Kirbo and Hamilton Jordan for about an hour and 15 minutes on a program that we have here that we are getting ready to start full scale that they are very interested in, possibly putting it in on a national level. We started talking about my son but anyway I moved away to this and we can get back to him. And he's responsible for the contact. In other words, by his being in this law firm he introduced me to Charles Kirbo. As a result we had gotten to be friends. The program that I speak of is the comprehensive Community Service Program for Inner-Cities. It has always been my philosophy that a college should in fact work in the community and we say we do that but not really on an organized and coordinated way providing services, using the expertise that we have on a college campus to help people who need help, for instance, counseling people, testing people to find out what it is they need, or giving psychological testing as well as the aptitude test, providing tutoring services in reading and writing for young children who may drop out because they have problems. And so many other things that we could provide, athletics for young boys and girls in all sports so that they learn some of the values of working hard and team work, and the whole bit. This is something we were going to do at Jackson State. As a matter of fact, we are doing some of the things now, but they are not coordinated so that the whole college is behind them. And this was the program that I talked to the President about - (that I) initiated. If he could get each college in any urban setting to take a part of that urban setting and give them services as part of their whole program, mission, and work with those people then I think we would be much better off as a whole society. For instance, I heard Jesse Jackson speak just last night in Richmond and he made an observation that I usually make and that was this. He said that it cost approximately $20,000 to get a college education in Virginia, but it costs $40,000 – that’s for four years – but it costs $40,000 to keep a person, give them a prison education. In other words, if you go to prison for four years it cost the state $40,000 minimum. (Jordan: Per prisoner?) Per prisoner.

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Per prisoner. In New York State it cost $100,000 for four years to keep a person in prison. So, it's a very expensive kind of no return type of situation. Most people won't even think of the value in a pragmatic way of helping people who may down the road get into some difficulty if they do not have the proper psychological or professional or skilled way of earning a living and if you don't do this and you are hungry and you don't have any chance for an income there isn't but one way to go and we have found this to be the case. For instance, in Virginia I hate to admit this, Mr. Jordan, but about 75% of all the prisoners are minorities and they are between the ages of 19 and 27, 28. And this is right in our best years of young people's lives. If somehow those people that are in those prisons costing the state $40,000 for four years could go to ... (school) that money could be used to help educate them and help them through certain kinds of trials and tribulations. Why not only would they be better off, but the community would be better off, the state would be better off and the country. So, this is why I went to the White House to talk about this program, just this week. I was shocked when I went to Mr. Kirbo in Atlanta and told him about it. That was on a Monday and this past Tuesday he called me and asked me could I come to the White House and he set the appointment up and Wednesday I was there. That's how fast this thing has happened.

Jordan: What is your personal impression of President Carter?

Wilson: He's a sincere man. He's a man who is learning to be President. It's not anything that you can learn if you are thrust into it from a governorship to president. I think that's why probably the people that came through the legislative branch and became president probably were a little better prepared for it. But it's a big job that is getting bigger every year. And so I found him to be a very sincere person who wanted to do - who's interested - who has fifty things that have to be accomplished last week and he's trying to do them all. I'll tell you what impressed me most - and I've always been a person that was fairly, easily impressed - was the feeling you get when you are in the White House. The feeling of the power, the power base. It's overwhelming, the feeling of the tradition, the feeling of what the country has been about in the past and that stayed with me. I couldn't believe that that's where I was. I'm still, I'm very impressed right now.

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But to get back on my children. My oldest son, as I said, went to Dartmouth and he was a Phi Beta Kappa there. He was a very good student and as I say he is a lawyer now practicing in Atlanta. And his wife is also a lawyer and she finished Harvard Law School. And she's practicing with one of the greatest golfers of all times, I was trying to think of what his first name is, Jones is his last name, Bobby Jones. Bobby Jones was the great golfer in the world in the l930s. He was a lawyer by profession and he had a law firm and, of course, he's deceased now. But my son's wife works in that law firm, Bobby Jones law firm. They still use his name. Then, of course, my second son was a very outstanding athlete at Dartmouth. He's a football player and baseball player and broke quite a few records at Dartmouth in athletics and he too wanted to go to law school. I was awfully glad he chose the University of Virginia for a couple of reasons. It's a good school but secondly because it was a lot less expensive than some of the others. And I think that's enough to say about my family. I'm very proud of them and my wife and I have worked very hard with them and it wasn't so much material things that we gave them but we gave of ourselves and our time when they were developing. I think that's probably the best thing we could have done for them.

Jordan: You have been President of Norfolk State College for about 3 years now. Has Norfolk State advanced, has it improved itself since your taking office?

*The last three words of Mr. Jordan's question and the first eleven words of Dr. Wilson's answer were accidentally erased from the tape during the proofreading of the transcript - ed.*

Wilson: Well, you know I will be talking about myself I think, if I say it hadn't improved some. I think, of course, it would have improved in spite of me. It wouldn't have mattered. Anyone that was interested in the school and working toward bettering the school; it would have been improved because Norfolk State has a solid foundation and has a constituency that loves the college really. It's like any other institution. It isn't perfect and we make mistakes and everyone makes mistakes but the basic feeling about the school is it is very warm and the feeling is that it is needed and it's important. Yes, I would say it's improved. I'll tell you, what we've tried to do since I've been here. They are different years than they were a few years ago. We've tried to enlarge the knowledge about the college within the community.

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In other words, we've tried to open up the total community to the college.  We've gone to the industrial people and brought them into the college. We've gone to the Chamber of Commerce and brought them into the college scene. We've joined various organizations that would give us an opportunity to talk about the school and about our students. And we think we are getting better support. Our budget is the best budget we've had. It isn't enough but it is the best we've 'had in the history of the school, this year, this biennium. And you probably know we're getting this new ROTC, Health and Physical Education Building which is going to be an asset to our college.

Jordan: I understand there was a little bit of a controversy involving the land for that particular structure?

Wilson: Well, it's true, Mr. Jordan. We still do not have the land for it. It was land in Liberty Park; it's a housing development. It's supposed to be torn down, phased out. Regardless of our interest it would have been phased out anyway and we wanted to give these services in lieu of money. And so they agreed to sell us the land and we're having trouble right now getting money to buy it from the state.

Jordan: And there's also, continuing controversy, especially in the student newspaper the Spartan Echo. There seemed to be a large amount of opposition to the idea of a President's home on campus?

Wilson: I never did quite understand that, Mr. Jordan. Why? I never really understood that because in many cases our students want the same thing that the students of other institutions have. If they felt that another school was getting more than they were - that they deserved - I think that they would resent that, object to it and rightly so. I never quite understood why they resented the President of Norfolk State having a home because all the other Presidents have homes provided by the state. And in the long run, it would be more of an advantage for the students to have the President living on the campus because on weekends that would insure having activities and programs. They would know the President is on campus and the whole, whole idea of the home was to make it kind of a center base for all of (the) Norfolk State College Family. So, I never did quite understand that. I just never believed that it was a majority feeling that we not have a presidential home. I just felt there was a few people who for whatever reason did want it to happen.

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Jordan: I understand that the Student Government Association considered it a waste of money and that the money could be better used elsewhere within Norfolk State College itself?

Wilson: Well, that sounds good. You can always say that every time you get ready to spend money, even your own money. If you are going to spend it for a suit somebody can say, "well, that would be better spent buying some food" or if you are going to buy a car they say you shouldn't spend that money for a car, you need to start buying a house. It's a matter of opinion. It's what people's values are and what they're looking at. It's their perspective. Naturally, if it isn't something for them it isn't needed. Some people feel that way - some people think that way. But you still can't get away from the idea, Mr. Jordan, that every president that I know of, every college, private and public, provides a home for their president. Now, why should Norfolk State be so different than any other college in this country? That would be the question and that is the question I've asked any people, any of the students that have asked me about it. As you know, though, the house is going up and they are framing it right now. So it won't be too far off now. No, we wouldn't, (build it) if we hadn’t gone out and sold the people that were in a position to help us get the money that it was needed, it wouldn't have, that money wouldn't have come to Norfolk State for something else. This was money that they felt that we needed. Most of our leaders went to college and they know the value of having a president's home on campus. This home is being built to last a hundred years. So, this will be a great inducement for the next president. If you can say, well look, we have a home on campus for you, you can get a better man than you can get if he had two jobs and the other one was offering him a home and Norfolk State wasn't. So, I think it is a narrow view. I really have to say that without being biased because it wouldn't make any difference who was going to live in it even if I wasn't. I would say it is a necessity that a college have a home for a president.

Jordan: This is the end of side one of this cassette of the interview with Dr. Harrison B. Wilson. There is a restriction on the tape and the transcript of this interview. No quotations are to be made from the tape or transcript this interview without the written consent of Dr. Harrison B. Wilson. The continuation of this interview is on side two of this cassette.

This is side two of the cassette in which the interview with Dr. Harrison B. Wilson

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of Norfolk State College was recorded on. It should be noted that no quotations are to be made from either the tape or the transcript of the interview without the written consent of Dr. Wilson.

Jordan: Concerning the so-called Virginia Plan for Equal Opportunity in state supported institutions of higher education, will this plan insure Norfolk State's survival as a black institution or will it be altered and changed into a fully integrated institution open to everyone offering benefits to the entire community but just no longer as a black college?

Wilson: Well, I would almost have to have a crystal ball to say a definite no or yes to that question. I would hope that it would be open to all people, and it has been open as far as the administration here is concerned but it's the freedom of choice. An individual being willing to come. Since 1954, the school has been open to any person regardless of race, color or creed. If a person doesn't choose to come, you can't make a person come, especially when he is paying his money. I should hope that it would maintain its identity until it is no longer necessary and I don't know when that is, because there are all kinds of schools in Virginia for everyone. And in this country there are all kinds of schools and, of course, there is a choice. You have schools where you have predominantly Catholics, you have schools where you have predominantly Jews but other people go. You have schools where you have predominantly Methodist, you have schools where they are predominantly United Church of Christ like Catawba over in North Carolina. And I don't see why you couldn't have a school that's predominantly black. I don't see any difference at all. And I hope the Virginia Plan is not supposed to, is not intended to, at least openly to do away with the predominantly black institutions. It's supposed to enhance each school, each school with its own mission but, of course, only time will tell really what happens, you know.

Jordan: Is it your consideration that black colleges are important and that we still, that this country still needs them?

Wilson: They need them desperately. It's one of the greatest human resources America has today. I don't know how you feel about ROTC, but I give this as an example all the time, that the Big Ten universities total population, student population is over 150,000 students,  way over, probably closer to 200,000, and they only have 250 black ROTC cadets. This survey was done in 1977. Well, Norfolk

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State only has 7,400, 7,300 students and they have close to 700 ROTC cadets in one school. Now that's a human resource. Seventy-five per cent of all black doctors came from two institutions. What's happened to the other hundred institutions? They put out 25%. So, if we didn't have those two predominantly black institutions we wouldn't have doctors or lawyers or dentists because for every 600 white people you have one doctor, for 3,000 blacks you have one doctor, for every 8,000 blacks you have one black dentist. For every 1,200 whites you have a dentist. So, we are just so far behind in terms of professionals, skilled people that we need predominantly black schools that are producing this kind of person. So, my answer to your question then directly is that, yes, we need these schools and that's the reason I didn't put a time, a closed-end situation where I say by 2005, 2050 we won't need them anymore. We may need them forever but as long as America is not producing minorities, blacks, in numbers that are needed in all the other institutions in this country then we need the predominantly black institutions because they are producing blacks. And if there was no other reason but that that would justify it in my opinion.

Jordan: A final question, Doctor. What would be the future of Harrison B. Wilson himself? Will he run for political office or will he continue to serve as President of Norfolk State College, has he reached his peak or what, exactly what?

Wilson: Yes, that's a good question. I'm really surprised you asked me that question, though, but it shows your insight. Really I don't have any plans at this time to do anything other than what I am doing. I'm kind of dedicated to this at this point. Being President of Norfolk State is the biggest thing in my life. I've worked 8 years to get here and I want to do some things that I haven't had a chance to do yet. There are still many mountains to climb in higher education for blacks. And so, I see myself being here, if the Lord is willing. And there again you don't have a crystal ball, you don't know what's going to happen in your life - that there's so many twists and turns in the road that you go right instead of left and may change your whole life. You don't know. And I don't know what the Lord has in store for me. That's another thing, I have promised the Lord many years ago that He has my life in His hands and I am willing to do what He wants me to do. I think; I know He wanted me to be here because otherwise I wouldn't be here at Norfolk State but I am sincere when I say that I am in His hands.

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If there was something else that He told that He wanted me to do and I don't mean told me, talked to me, but let me, know through different things that happened in my life that bring me to another objective. If He did that then I would follow that, whatever. But I don't have any particular ambitions to be a politician or anything else at this point. This is what I like. It's a challenging job. Sometimes it's very thankless but it's challenging. And when you see some students that you think you might have had a little something to do with their success, then it makes the job worthwhile, really, because we are dealing with human beings. You're not dealing with things, animals or money. You are dealing with people and this is the most valuable commodity we have. And I guess, I know, I am biased because I say and feel that black people are so important to this country that we can't afford to lose one of them. If we can save one and use his mind to the fullest, use his talent to the fullest then we've really lived for something. And I think, that's what we are about. That's what I'm about and. I hope I can continue that because I love it.

Jordan: Thank you very much Doctor.

Wilson: You are welcome.

Jordan: This concludes the interview with Dr. Harrison B. Wilson. The total time length of the interview is about 53 minutes.