Major: This is June 11, 2007. I’m Jean Major, and I’m talking with Carroll Bailey about the history of the Virginia Symphony. How long were you a member of the Symphony?
Bailey: Well, let me put it this way. When I first joined the orchestra, I was in the Navy during World War II, and then Henry Cowles Whitehead was the director. He’s not listed on this paper you gave me. And I played trumpet, and they were playing something where they needed another trumpet player, and the man who was principal trumpet at that time was in the Navy band with me, and he kept begging me to come to a rehearsal and play with him. And I told him I didn’t want to do it because I didn’t like symphony music, and it’s so true. And finally I gave in and went to the rehearsal, and the first thing they started rehearsing was Brahms Second Symphony. And I sat there, and I’d never heard that one before, and I said to myself, “Is this what I said I didn’t like?” I mean, I was hooked right there from that first rehearsal. And I’ve always loved Brahms Second. And so I went in the orchestra on third trumpet. And he eventually left, and then I became the second trumpet player; someone else was first. And then that guy left, and then I was principal trumpet. And then so I was still in the Navy, and things being what they are in wartime – World War II – the band I was in got transferred to the Navy School of Music, which was in Anacostia, Washington, DC, at that time. And so of course, that took me out of the symphony. And I was eventually discharged at Great Lakes, Illinois.
Major: Been there many times. I’m from Illinois.
Bailey: Oh, are you?
Major: Yeah.
Bailey: And I had G.I. Bill time, so I utilized that and got a Bachelor’s degree in music education and a Master of Arts from Columbia University. And after that then I took jobs as a high school band and orchestra director. I taught two years in Indiana and nine years in Corpus Christi, Texas. And my wife was from Norfolk, and so I… they were having all kinds of family problems, and so we moved back here. I taught one year at York High School. And then the job opened up at Norview High School. You probably know where that is.
Major: Yes. Mmm-hmm.
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Bailey: I taught there for 13 years. And then decided if I had to stay one more year, I would be dead because it was an extremely bad teaching situation at that time. And then, so I was able to move into elementary school music. And in all that time when I came back from Texas, I hadn’t been in town but just an extremely short time when a man named Dean Derby, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of him, Dean Derby was a French horn player who sort of ran things for the symphony. And he was librarian among other things. And when he found out I was in town, he called me, and it was like an old friend calling you. And he asked me to come to rehearsal, which I did, and so I’ve been with the orchestra ever since until I retired. This was ’62 – ’63 or something like that.
Major: You rejoined in ’62 or ’63 and retired in?
Bailey: About ’96. A lot of people said I put in 50 years. Perhaps actually I was not there for a few years.
Major: And I imagine when you started, in the World War II period when you were in the Navy band and you started with the orchestra, you were a kid, right?
Bailey: I was about 21, 22.
Major: Right. Right. So one of my questions has been to the other musicians, what did you do before, while I imagine you didn’t have a before.
Bailey: No.
Major: So… and all the time that you were in the symphony after 1962, your day job was as a teacher.
Bailey: High school band and orchestra.
Major: Right. Right. What is a career with the Virginia Symphony like? What are its various facets? Just what has it been like over the time?
Bailey: Well, I enjoyed it, or I would not have stayed with it. Financially, it didn’t pay enough to… you couldn’t live on that money, so I continued to be a high school band-orchestra director. And there were no rehearsals during the daytime, so I was able to continue doing that. And I retired… I’m trying to think of the exact time, but it was I think in ’96. I retired just before the orchestra made the trip to Carnegie Hall.
Major: Okay, that was after we, we’ve been in town since 1992 so it was sometime after that…
Bailey: Yes.
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Major: … but maybe ten years ago.
Bailey: At least.
Major: Right, Right. So the symphony in your time was always part-time work. It was not living wage. Did you… did the symphony always play in a variety of different performance spaces?
Bailey: Explain that, please.
Major: Did you always play sometimes on the Peninsula, sometimes in Norfolk, sometimes at the Beach, sometimes here, sometimes there?
Bailey: So far as the symphony is concerned, it was always in Norfolk.
Major: Really? Okay.
Bailey: And we played… in the beginning we played our concerts at… I’m trying to think of what they called it then. It’s where the Harrison Opera House is now.
Major: Wasn’t that called -- that was before my time, but wasn’t that called something like the Center Theater, the Center something-or-other?
Bailey: Yes. Yes, ma’am.
Major: Okay, so you used to play at the Center Theater, and then from there Chrysler Hall, is that right?
Bailey: Yes, all the way up to and including ________. I played the very first orchestra concert in Chrysler Hall.
Major: When did you change from being a trumpet player to playing string bass?
Bailey: Well, it was during the time that Russell Stanger was there. I was principal trumpet, and so I went to a rehearsal one evening, and something had happened to my lip, unbeknownst to me. I couldn’t even tune up. I had all at once -- I had absolutely no control whatsoever, and that’s a disaster for a principal trumpet.
Major: It is.
Bailey: And in the meantime, I had picked up string bass, and as a matter of fact I played string base when I was in Corpus Christi. I played with a symphony there. And so I went to Mr. Stanger, and it was obvious to him that something
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bad had happened to me, you know. And I said, “What you don’t know is that I can play string bass, also, and that I played in Corpus Christi in the orchestra.” And I said, “Would you consider allowing me to change from trumpet to string bass?” Something like that is normally not done without an audition.
Major: Right.
Bailey: But Mr. Stanger really studied me over for, he didn’t answer right away. He studied me over for a little bit, and finally he said, he looked me right in the eye and he says, “Okay.” So one night I was principal trumpet, and the next rehearsal I was last chair string bass. And so I’ve stayed on string bass, and I worked myself up until I was assistant principal string bass. The Lord blessed me in being able to learn how to play the music. And so I don’t know what else to say about that.
Major: Okay, can you tell me, what are some of the high points of your career with the orchestra?
Bailey: I had that question written down and left it. I really don’t know how to answer that, though. I continually enjoyed playing. I could give you a low point better than I could a high point.
Major: Well, that was going to be my next question. I didn’t phrase it that way, but what were some other memorable moments that were not high points?
Bailey: Well, when what’s-his-name? I’ve tried to put it out of my mind – Dan Vogel, Winston Dan Vogel. When we were rehearsing the Mahler 4th Symphony and… but under him I don’t think I was assistant principal. I think I was maybe fourth chair or something like that. And he’s the only director who would -- he had some kind of a thing about string basses, and he started with the last chair and play this from here to here, like that. And each one of us had to play it. Well, I played it all right. I played it good, but he had already made up his mind he wanted to move me, so he… it was obvious… so he would do it again, only faster tempo. And I was able to do it at that tempo. So, we’re going to do it again. So he finally took it so fast that I could not play it perfectly. So he-- as soon as rehearsal was over, he said, “Come here. I want to talk to you.” So I was no longer a regular member of the orchestra at that time. I became a ‘per service.’ And so that was sort of a low point in my orchestra career. But I got along well with all the other directors, including JoAnn Falletta.
Major: Mmm-hmm. You’re the first person I’ve talked to who had some real experience with Edgar Schenkman. Tell me about the Edgar Schenkman period.
Bailey: Well, you know, he was from Juilliard and a very good director. His wife was principal violin. I played trumpet for him, and I got along very well with him. I
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think that maybe he lost the job -- I’m surmising this based on a long time memory now that he didn’t… he did not get along with the authorities of the symphony. I don’t know what else to call them.
Major: You mean like the board?
Bailey: Yeah.
Major: Hmm. So you think that that’s what caused his era to end.
Bailey: I think so because he… I thought he was well liked by the orchestra, and he was certainly a good director.
Major: Hmm, interesting. How about the Russell Stanger period? What was that like?
Bailey: Russell Stanger was the most interesting director that I’ve ever played for. I learned more from him than anyone else. He was like a teacher-director for the orchestra at that time. And sometimes in a funny way. He came to rehearsal one night with a sweatshirt on. And he had had somebody put on it, “If you can’t play forte, at least look forte.” [laughing] He got good music out of the orchestra. And I enjoyed playing for him and the -- I believe the other members of the orchestra respected him very highly. And knowing that he had been assistant director for Leonard Bernstein and someone else that I can’t remember…
Major: The guy in Minnesota.
Bailey: Yes.
Major: Yeah, I can’t remember his name either – a Slavic name.
Bailey: Yes.
Major: Yeah, right. Yeah, he had good preparation. Yeah. Do you know what caused his era to end?
Bailey: Again, I think it was controversies with the board.
Major: Mmm. Hmm. But it sounds as though when these people left, it was not a matter of big conversation among the musicians?
Bailey: I can’t say that it was. Things like this you kind of learn on the sly.
Major: Right, right. I’m very eager to hear what you… your observations about Richard Williams and Winston Dan Vogel, besides the one thing you already told me about
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Winston Dan Vogel. Tell me what Richard Williams was like and why he didn’t stay very long.
Bailey: Let me tell you something else about Winston Dan Vogel.
Major: Okay.
Bailey: When a new player comes into the orchestra, they audition for chairs, but it turned out that I was on the audition committee, and Winston Dan Vogel sat right next to me, and we were auditioning Sherie Aguirre, who is principal oboe right now. Okay, it was obvious that the audition committee really liked her playing. Okay, Vogel turned to me and said, “A woman can be principal?” You see, I think he had directed an orchestra in Israel, I think, and maybe some place else in Europe where it was an all male orchestra. But he was incredulous that we’d vote for a female to be principal oboe.
Major: Hmm, but he only had one vote, right?
Bailey: Yes.
Major: I haven’t ever heard, had anyone explain to me how the audition process works. I know it’s a blind audition, and there’s a committee made up of…
Bailey: Orchestra members.
Major: … orchestra members and the conductor, and we learned from somebody we talked to in the last couple of weeks that at the time that the orchestra began playing for the opera that Peter Mark sat in also, but that was probably after the time you’re talking about.
Bailey: I don’t believe so.
Major: Don’t remember.
Bailey: I don’t remember him being on an audition committee, but I was not always on them.
Major: Right. Was an audition committee appointed for each orchestra position or was the audition committee for like one year.
Bailey: For whomever… Now, we’re going to have an audition. This, this and this person is asked to become part of the committee. And then it dissolved, and someone… another set of people.
Major: When that position is filled, then that committee dissolves?
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Bailey: If that was the purpose of the audition.
Major: Okay.
Bailey: I had to audition a couple of times on string bass, and the Lord was with me. I did very well, but Winston Dan Vogel was not part of it. [laughing]
Major: Right. Was he an effective conductor, did you think?
Bailey: By that do you mean could he take a piece of music and really get everything out of it?
Major: Um… yeah.
Bailey: My answer is a little bit vague on that, but the only thing I really remember having to work so hard on was that Mahler Fourth, but there was another selection that was that difficult, and I can’t remember the name of it, that he took the orchestra through, and it went very well. My personal likes or dislikes of him has to be tempered with the respect that I got… that he got from me on what he did, but it was with… I think it was with a sigh of relief when he was replaced.
Major: And he was replaced?
Bailey: Mmm-hmm, by Williams.
Major: Mmm… I think it was the other way around.
Bailey: Was it the other way around?
Major: Williams came first. I’m curious about Richard Williams and what kind of a conductor he was.
Bailey: Well, he was rather flamboyant.
Major: Really?
Bailey: I thought so, but I thought that Russell Stanger was a better dresser.
Major: Mmm-hmm, and Richard Williams didn’t stay very long. Do you know why that was?
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Bailey: No, I don’t, but I think he always had something else in the fire because I remember right after… right after he left, he directed the… I can’t think of the name of it… What’s the big orchestra in England? I can’t think of the big city.
Major: Was it not the… not one of the London ensembles, was it?
Bailey: One of the London… he directed the London Symphony.
Major: Well, that’s interesting, isn’t it?
Bailey: And it was… it was. In the meantime he had, I think, had left his wife or divorced his wife and took one of the violin players from the symphony with him.
Major: Oh, really?
Bailey: Yep.
Major: Oh! Well….
Bailey: Maybe I shouldn’t be quoted on that. [laughing]
Major: I’m interested in what kind of impact the executive directors had on the actual musicians. How important were the various executive directors to an effective orchestra?
Bailey: I don’t know how to answer that because I had no contact with them, and they were somebody that was just out there some place, but I didn’t know any of them. They never… none of them ever showed up to talk to the orchestra.
Major: Is that right?
Bailey: Not to my knowledge.
Major: That’s interesting.
Bailey: They were… they were, to me, very frankly they were people who should have spent their time raising money for the orchestra and didn’t do it…or couldn’t do it.
Major: Oh, right, right. Huh. Tell me about when, in about 1985, the musicians were put on salary for the first time, how did that finally happen? What was the lead-up to being put on salary?
Bailey: I knew you were going to ask that question, and I don’t really know. It wasn’t very much of a salary.
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Major: It still isn’t.
Bailey: That’s right.
Major: No.
Bailey: It was just… it was a regular amount of money coming in for principal players and those who were not per-service players like I was.
Major: Mmm-hmm. Mmm-hmm. After that encounter with Winston Dan Vogel, were you always a per-service player after that.
Bailey: Yes.
Major: Oh. So when the change to salary came, did it in fact make a great deal of difference?
Bailey: Not to me.
Major: No, I can see it wouldn’t have made any difference to you if you were a per-service player.
Bailey: It undoubtedly made some difference, but as to whether it attracted people from big orchestras to come play with us, I don’t think it did.
Major: Most-- when they recruit for--. Or in the past when they recruited for new players, did they draw candidates from big orchestras or not?
Bailey: I don’t think they do to this day. ____ I had better back off a little bit. Our principal string bass used to play with the, he played with the Atlanta Symphony before he came to Norfolk.
Major: Oh, really?
Bailey: Uh-huh.
Major: But he wasn’t principal in Atlanta, I presume.
Bailey: No. No.
Major: I see.
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Bailey: And, Sheri Aguirre, for example, her husband is a marvelous violin player. And the two of them played with some orchestra, either in Spain or someplace… I mean out of the country.
Major: Venezuela?
Bailey: It could be.
Major: Because I think Jorge is Venezuelan. I’m not positive, but I think he is. So they draw internationally, but maybe not lots from the big U.S. orchestras?
Bailey: Well, musicians who belong to the musicians union always watch the advertisements in the back of that magazine. Have you seen one of those magazines?
Major: I have never seen one in all the years that I’ve been involved with musicians.
Bailey: Well, there will be sections in the back of it saying auditions for such and such a position will be open at such and such a time and always the big orchestras knew that the Virginia Symphony has advertised that way – everything from the New York Philharmonic on down advertises that way. And now whether or not the Virginia Symphony draws somebody from a big orchestra or not might depend on whether they got put out of their job with that big orchestra.
Major: Sure. Hmm.
Bailey: That’s my educated guess.
Major: Right. Were there other notable incidents in the area of labor relations in the symphony?
Bailey: The closest thing to that was when we went on strike, and I don’t remember just when that was. We were trying to get more money, and I really don’t remember what led up to that. It had to be people who were orchestra members who were complaining, “I can’t live with my salary,” etc. “We have to do something to get more money.” Well, I remember walking in a-- what would you call it, a protest line or something like that.
Major: Mmm-hmm. And after you went on the strike, was it successful?
Bailey: Very mildly. I don’t think anything dramatic came out of it.
Major: At one time or for a period, there seems to have been an arrangement – a partnership – with Norfolk State, and some people were hired to be faculty members at
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Norfolk State and also to play in the symphony. Do you know how that partnership evolved?
Bailey: I was surprised to read it. I don’t know anything about it.
Major: That was how Steve Carlson came, for example.
Bailey: Oh, really?
Major: Yeah, yeah, because you know he was-- he just retired as a faculty member at Norfolk State. And it was when Georgia Ryder was the chair of the music department.
Bailey: Oh, yes, hmm. Well, now that I think of it, I can think of two or three others who were employed at Norfolk State, and I didn’t know that it was arranged through something with the Virginia Symphony. I had no knowledge of that.
Major: Well, I haven’t talked yet with anyone who knows very much about it. Steve is on our list to talk with, but we haven’t got to him yet, and so I don’t really know how it worked. And…
Bailey: Well, he could probably tell you.
Major: Yeah, I think so. What can you tell me about the period of the merger of the Norfolk Symphony, the Virginia Beach Pops, the Peninsula Orchestra to make the current Virginia Symphony? What can you tell me about that period or about how that happened or…
Bailey: I think it was an effort to try to make more money. I played in the Pops Orchestra, and Walter Noona was one of the directors of it, and what’s his name who just died?
Major: Someone who just died. Was it… was Ca-… Did Cary McMurran… McMurtin Did he just die?
Bailey: No, and I wasn’t referring to him at all.
Major: Oh, then I don’t know.
Bailey: All right, the… who… well, there’s another name, and you have it printed on here somewhere. The man directed the New York Pops and would come in here and directed our pops orchestra.
Major: Walter Noona?
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Bailey: No. No.
Major: I can’t think who it…
Bailey: [flipping pages] You have his name here somewhere. All right, I don’t see it. [Pauses] It escapes me, but anyhow he was a very famous conductor, and he directed the pops orchestra for the New York Philharmonic, I believe. At least they called it the New York Pops Orchestra. And I played for him several times. He played piano. He played very good and would sit at the keyboard and talk to the audience about different famous people that he’d had contact with. It may come to mind in a little bit. That Walter Noona was directing the Pops there for a while. Walter had a very unfortunate occurrence. Have you heard anything about it? Well, we had Dizzy Gillespie as a guest artist. And Dizzy came in with special arrangements. It’s some great big thing that with orchestra accompaniment…
Major: Oh, you mean special musical arrangements.
Bailey: Yeah, special arrangements featuring him, of course. And Walter Noona was directing it. Well, Walter got off track. I don’t know how else to say it. Walter was directing what he heard in his head that wasn’t even close to what was printed on the music. For example, just for example, Walter would, there was a place where a big szforzando. You’d go like ________. Nothing would happen because it was two measures later. And then the orchestra would play it. [laughing] And some of the members… some of the members actually booed him when…
Major: Oh, my goodness. Well, it sounds like a debacle.
Bailey: Anyhow, I was close enough to Dizzy Gillespie to see the whole situation, you know. And when this started happening, old Diz looked around at everybody in the orchestra [laughing] “Follow me.”
Major: Right.
Bailey: And that’s the way we got through the whole thing.
Major: So did this incident become a major issue in the whole Walter Noona exit?
Bailey: I’m sure it did.
Major: Hmm. That’s interesting.
Bailey: You might ask Steve Carlson about it.
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Major: I might. When you were… you were playing in the orchestra and, you know, doing your day job and so on, and I assume that this merger took more than a year or two to take place, how much did all of you _____ musicians see, hear about, participate in the lead-up to the merger and in the initial stages of the merger itself? Was it a major part of your life playing with the symphony?
Bailey: No.
Major: No.
Bailey: You’re talking about like Cary McMurran, for example?
Major: Well, when the three orchestras merged to make what is now the Virginia Symphony?
Bailey: As I remember it, it was just… just a matter of the orchestra manager getting on the phone and calling those musicians, “You want to come play with us?” And I don’t… I may have it all wrong. I don’t know, but I wasn’t aware of any big, dramatic thing. I know that the Peninsula Symphony seemed to fold right at or right about that time. I think it was just a matter of trying to get the best musicians in the area to come play.
Major: Mmm. Hmm. There was, at least I think, a long period of time where there was a youth orchestra. Did you ever work with the youth orchestra?
Bailey: Yes. I’m trying to think of the violinist in the orchestra that really, really put it together. My mind plays tricks on me. I’ve known this man ever since I’ve been in the area, and I can’t think of his name.
Major: There was a time, I know, when the youth orchestra was conducted by Sidney Berg, but he was not a violinist. He was a drummer. You… so I presume you’re talking about somebody before that time.
Bailey: Yep. Well, maybe I’m talking about two different orchestras. I remember very well Sidney Berg forming a youth orchestra. And I remember one concert that we put on that Mr. Berg invited different ones of us to direct one number, which I did. Today the youth orchestra is really like the Bay Youth Orchestra. It was not that good of an orchestra, because first of all it didn’t have enough rehearsals. It was hard to get rehearsal time for high school kids and auditions for chairs and so on like that. That didn’t exist like it does now for the Bay Youth Orchestra.
Major: Really? Hmm. There was at one time also a community music school. Do you have any recollection of that?
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Bailey: No. I didn’t have any part in that. I think maybe it might have happened while I was off at college.
Major: Hmm. Maybe so, because it was quite a while ago. It was during the heyday, I think, of Charles Vogan.
Bailey: Okay. Did Mr. Schenkman have something to do with it?
Major: Possibly. I haven’t talked with anyone who had any dealings with it. I always ask, but everybody says, “No, I didn’t have anything to do with it,” so. In all the time you were with the orchestra, did you ever have a period where you had significant contact with the board?
Bailey: Never.
Major: Never.
Bailey: Not one time.
Major: Any contact with the Symphony League?
Bailey: Nope.
Major: Okay.
Bailey: The only thing I remember about them is that they used to provide coffee and cookies for intermission at concerts.
Major: Right. Right. For the musicians?
Bailey: Yeah.
Major: Yeah.
Bailey: Which we enjoyed very much by the way.
Major: I guess so. Are there things that you thought I might ask or that you wanted to be sure to get on the record for the interview?
Bailey: I… I don’t think so. I wanted to comment that the best thing that has happened to the orchestra is hiring JoAnn Falletta.
Major: Yes.
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Bailey: The orchestra has continually sounded better and continually… I mean, -- what is it -- know the music and listen to the orchestra - today can remember a year ago when it was good, but it wasn’t as good as it is now. It just keeps getting better and better.
Major: Mmm. Well, it certainly is enjoyable. We have had season tickets the entire time we’ve lived here, and it gets better and more ambitious and all of that.
Bailey: I would like to tell you something that happened that has nothing to do with the playing of the orchestra. Why she asked me, I’ll never know, but she asked me to go speak for her at a thing that was -- there’d be a group of about 30 to 40 people or something like that. And she says, “I can’t do two things at once, and I just have to be someplace else.” She says, “You don’t have to talk very long. Ten minutes would be plenty. And just talk about the orchestra.” So I said, “I’d be glad to do it.” So I tried to think of some things, and I talked a little bit about Russell Stanger and things that I’ve told you. And I was very complimentary toward her and so on like that. And that was it, and then I was done. And about a week later I got a package in the mail. She’d made me some homemade cookies. [laughing]
Major: Well, how nice. I had no idea that she had time to do homemade cookies.
Bailey: Me either. [still laughing]
Major: Well, that is a nice little story. Well, this has really been helpful. It’s been very interesting. Thank you very much.
Bailey: I wanted to ask you, who asked you to come talk to me?
Major: I… Once I saw in some of the symphony papers of some kind, I saw Carroll Bailey, and I thought, “Oh, is that Carroll, the singer?” And when I asked him, he said, “Oh no, that’s my dad.” And so then I thought, “Well… I… this is a…”
Bailey: Oh. Okay. I don’t know if you want this or not.
END OF INTERVIEW
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