Major: I am Jean Major. It’s October 23, 2008. I am talking with Helen Sonenshine and Terri Kirchner about the Virginia Symphony Orchestra and the Virginia Symphony Orchestra League. Can we begin by telling me when you began your involvement with the symphony?
Sonenshine: The symphony itself, as opposed to the league, was something, an organization that I, I attended concerts when we first moved here in the 1960s, but that was on and off. So I can’t say that I was really involved with them other than to come and attend concerts. I became involved in a more, much more in-depth way after I joined the league and especially after I became president of the league.
Major: And when did you join the league?
Sonenshine: About ten, twelve years ago. I really don’t remember exactly. [laughter] Major: In the late 90s?
Sonenshine: In the late 90s. Major: Terri, when did you begin to be involved?
Kirchner: Well, my story is sort of like Helen’s. And I attended symphony concerts but wasn’t really involved with any facet of the organization itself until I think about 1997 or 98. And Tina Pagley, a league member who goes to my church, twisted my arm to come to league meetings, and before I knew it, they needed a corresponding secretary, and I was sort of surprised because I had just joined. But [laughter], apparently finding people who are willing to take on a job like that was rather difficult, and it was a very large board, too. So anyway I got involved then.
Major: So you were quickly recruited for the board. In the time that you spent with the Symphony League, what was your particular expertise?
Kirchner: Well, I very quickly got drafted to be president. I had been corresponding secretary for about a year and. It was very interesting. I was a Senior VP with Bank of America. I was traveling five days a week, and I got this
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phone call while I was up in Chicago saying, I think it was Ann Robin on the line, who said “Would you please consider being president of the Symphony League?” and I said there was no way. I don’t have time, and we went through that about four or five times, and then Winnie Baldwin got on the phone. And Winnie is a very savvy lady, and she said “I know you work for Bank of America, and I know that a lot of the management in this area: they would want you to take this on.” And I thought about that for about ten seconds, and I did a hundred and eighty cause I realized she was right. And I said, “Ok, I’ll do it.” [laughter]
Major: So, you really went from secretary to president?
Kirchner: Corresponding secretary. We also has a recording secretary for minutes.
Major: Helen, what, what was your expertise?
Sonenshine: I think I was asked to fill in as recording secretary, maybe I actually was recording secretary for a short while. And then Ann Robin, who at that time was president-elect, I believe, asked me to work with her on the fund-raising for the endowment. The symphony had, the Symphony League had decided that they would, as a group, have a naming opportunity for one of the chairs which ended up being the Sheri Aguirre oboe. And to raise, to do that required raising 100,000 dollars. So, I headed that up, at first with Ann and then when she became president, I basically finished it up on my own. And after that they asked me to be president. [laughter] Major: So, you really had a head, always had fundraising expertise in the organization?
Sonenshine: Well, I did it! [laughter] Successfully, so I guess that qualifies as expertise. Major: Sort of the genesis of this question is, when I have been on boards like this, I almost always start out, started out as the treasurer. That seems to be my expertise, and so I, I wondered if either of you had particular expertise that, that developed into greater board activity. Can you tell me something about how the league organization is structured?
Kirchner: Well, just to clarify a couple of things. First of all, Helen’s term immediately preceded mine, which was why we had the idea to do this together. We could fill in the gaps for each other. And second of all, as far as being president, that was a, an ongoing problem, I think, finding someone who wanted to be president. Because even though, I think, when I came in there were about thirty board positions. Everyone who served in those positions had served in them typically for quite a while, and they liked doing what they did, but none of them were particularly interested in moving up.
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Sonenshine: Well, many of them had been in other positions on the board, and they had been on the board for a long, long time, and some of them had been previous presidents, too!
Kirchner: That’s true.
Sonenshine: And so, there was a sense that it was a revolving door. And they had difficulty recruiting people to take on the work that needed to be done. And there were some major fundraising projects at the time that were time-consuming, and so those who were successful in those fundraising projects, we sort of needed to keep them there [laughter] so that we would continue to be successful.
Major: So it sounds as though the organization was made up of a very large board of leadership in some sense and then the rest of the membership.
Sonenshine: Yes.
Kirchner: Yes. In fact I, I was looking through something I did back in 2003, after I had served as president. Cathy Walsh came in. She did a goal setting and planning session. And had us make notes on who we were, who we would like to be, should we grow the membership, and that kind of thing. And somewhere in here, I’ve got a note about the board and the rest of the membership and the fact that the board was one big happy family most of the time and very close, and the rest of the members sort of…. weren’t necessarily included in that to the extent that I think it would have been good to do if we were trying to groom more people and bring them in.
Sonenshine: I think both of us served during periods when there was a recognition that the organization had to change. And change is always difficult for any organization. The board had to get smaller, and it has since done so, I believe, and had to reach out to the rest of the membership and involve them in some way. And I believe now, with the social events that they have which are pure social, coming together hearing music and so forth, that gives the opportunity for people to get to know each other. Prior to that, there were previews of the coming concerts, and everybody had an opportunity to get to hear that, but that wasn’t quite the social event that they have now. So, I think we were probably, and continuing on afterwards also, but probably the, the period in which the recognition and the need for reaching out and involving the rest of the league and, and attracting people on the basis of getting to know people as opposed to right away put them into job and get them to work. [laughter] I, I think it ultimately has begun to happen.
Kirchner: Right. And I think at the time, too, was something of a prestige group, and so you really needed to join as a member to hear about it through a friend, typically who was already a member.
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Sonenshine: Yes.
Kirchner: And I had the idea one time when I first came in to put the announcements for the previews in the newspaper, and that was immediately shot down. You know it was, you have to be a league member to come to these, and while I was looking at that as an avenue, I think other people saw it as…. sort of… maybe inviting people who would not be a good fit for the organization.
Sonenshine: Well, even the idea of putting the, the application to join in the program was new! [laughter] And they do that now! But that was a fight.
Kirchner: I think you started that! Didn’t you?
Sonenshine: I think so, I think so. Yes! And I know I was one that really got the, before I was president actually, Ann was the president, but I urged that they get involved with the education department of the symphony since so many of the members had been teachers and liked working with children, and so that is a major thing now, too. So, we each had little things that moved it forward because it’s hard to make big giant steps in an organization like that.
Kirchner: And, and when I came in, the previews had always been at ten o’clock in the morning on a weekday. And as, as someone who worked myself, I recognized that we were probably making it difficult for a lot of people who worked to come to those previews. And so I suggested moving it to noon, and there was a big pushback on that. But, one of the advantages of being president is you, [laughter] you, you have a certain amount of power to put out the schedule yourself and that kind of thing, so I said, “Let’s try it,” and we did. It did work for several years there. The pushback came from the people who were used to going to the preview at ten o’clock and then going to lunch. And so I think we did the preview from 11:30 – 12:30, which sort of split the difference and, and that worked for a while. Then it, I, I just noticed that it’s back to being ten o’clock in the morning again.
Sonenshine: Well, and I think there’s been since then a re-evaluation on the part of the symphony. Carla wanting, feeling that members of the symphony really couldn’t take that much time out, and JoAnn was coming so often, and whoever the conductor was, and so now they are making more of it, but there are fewer of them. Fewer of these previews. Major: But, but that was an activity where the league and the symphony were in close cooperation, I presume. In general, was the league in close collaboration with the symphony?
Sonenshine: When you say the symphony, there’s the, the members, the musicians, and then there’s the, the staff. That’s totally different.
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Kirchner: And the board.
Sonenshine: And the board. Yes. And there was very much a sense, this was really strong under my presidency and I think under yours to a large extent, too, that they do think their, their staff is terrible; they have too much turnover; they’re not efficient; they lose money; they don’t know how to do things. We can do it, you know it was [laughter]
Kirchner: And they don’t involve us. [laughter]
Sonenshine: And they don’t involve us. And they don’t, yes. And I, I sense that that has changed a great deal. They, and they have the Trustee Council, many of the league members or former members serve on that. You’re on that, I believe.
Kirchner: uh.
Sonenshine: And then there are other committees that they have tried involving us, and I think that attitude was largely a throwback to much earlier days and, and many of the people in the league, leadership positions in the league really go back to, a long time, and that was a holdover from years ago.
Kirchner: Right. And I think you’re right; that mood has changed.
Sonenshine: Yeah I, I sense it.
Kirchner: Part of it is the new board, and if you look at the new board, there are very few people on there of, if any, of the old crowd.
Sonenshine: Yes. Yes! And they are younger. And very dynamic with new ideas, and I, I have to say that my impression of the league when I first joined was, one of their main goals, or a goal was always to raise money. When I came on the big fundraiser was, was the car raffle, and then there was a, a large, rather elegant fashion show, and then they ran the boutique. Well, of all of those, the boutique survived, and it has been expanded, and it does much more. But the other two fundraisers haven’t. But the other major activity that they always emphasized was bringing cookies to the musicians. [laughter] So it, the whole image of the board, I think, the self-image of the board, I think, has changed a great deal with the younger generation that’s now on the board and doing things.
Kirchner: Right. And I, I really think you were a turning point in that.
Sonenshine: I like to think that maybe I helped. But I, you know, no one person does it. It moves.
Kirchner: And it has been in succession
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Sonenshine: Yeah, yeah.
Kirchner: There were things I would have loved to have done during my term, but I knew that I to sort of pick my battles and…
Sonenshine: Yeah, yeah.
Kirchner: Not that they were battles but,…. do what I could do and then leave the rest for Cathy Walsh who came after me.
Major: What were some of the high points of each of your periods of active involvement?
Sonenshine: Well, I know that the car raffle probably did _____ at its height ______ I mean it really made money. It was over 100,000 dollars, and I don’t think it ever, it hadn’t been that much before, and it hasn’t since, and it’s, has been now because it, you can’t do this year after year and have people get excited about it, and so it’s not a question of any individual. It’s really just that there are too many of them, and people are tired of that, and it was a lot of work, too, for people who were on the committee to do that.
Kirchner: yeah. Major: Umh, it’s a lot of work and a lot of responsibility.
Kirchner: Right.
Sonenshine: Yeah. Major: The financial responsibility is not small.
Sonenshine: Since then, the state requirements of paper work has expanded to the point where it made it really impossible for a volunteer organization to do that well. Major: Terri, do you have other high points that, that you are thinking about?
Kirchner: I’m just trying to reconcile this time-wise but I know when JoAnn Falletta came, that was just… her involvement with the league, her real desire to be involved with the league. I can’t remember if that came…
Sonenshine: It as before me. She was already involved.
Kirchner: Before you
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Sonenshine: Yeah, and that was a major reason why I got involved with the league really, because of her. She came to the symphony I think in 92 was it or 91? Something like that. The early 90’s. Major: Yes, because I came in 92, and she had just come.
Sonenshine: Yeah ok, right, so 92. So it was soon afterwards that we began going to the symphony a, a lot, and she was just very exciting to, to, you, I am sure others feel this way, you would do anything for her. [laughter] So.
Kirchner: That’s right. And I guess that’s why I’m thinking of several things, but they all involve JoAnn. In terms of events where she came, and just her way of talking with everybody in the room. And when you talk with her, she makes you feel like you are the only person in the world. It’s Major: Interestingly, my next question was going to be, who were the executive directors you worked with?
Sonenshine: [laughter] There were, I was president during a time of real change. Prior to the presidency there was a successful one, I can’t remember who it, what his name was, he went to Ohio. Do you remember?
Major: Dan Hart.
Sonenshine: Dan Hart right, right. After he left, it was somewhat of a disaster. Someone who came in and couldn’t do anything. He ended up staying here as a stock broker. I can’t remember his name either. [laughter] Ma, Macukas.
Kirchner: John.
Sonenshine: John Macukas. Comes back eventually. [laughter] And then it was really difficult to find someone, and I think it was David…
Kirchner: David Gaylin.
Sonenshine: Gaylin that came after that, and at first everybody liked him. I liked him and his wife, but he, I think, was over his head, and the symphony was, just not doing well at all financially, and then they got rid of him, and then John Morison came in for a couple of years and got things back on track. And then I was off the board by then and, and the board a, cause I was on the board for a year or so after my presidency, two years, something like that. It, it mood was so glum. Going to those board meetings was so difficult at that time. And then they got Carla Johnson. Major: Do you mean that, that when you went to the board, during the time of the problem directors or all that time, it was glum?
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Sonenshine: Well, John Macukas and David Gaylin were both problem directors. So, that was most of the time when I was the president and afterwards, so [laughter]
Kirchner: Although, when David came, first came, I think he had a honeymoon period…
Sonenshine: Yeah, yeah he was very, very charming and…
Kirchner: for quite a while actually
Sonenshine: Yeah, yeah, people liked him, I felt. In the beginning. But then,
Kirchner: and, and he seemed to be very competent, too, and then things just sort of fell apart…
Sonenshine: there was just sort of _______,
Kirchner: and I remember going to board meetings, course one of the benefits of being president of the league is that you get to go to
Sonenshine: board and the executive committee
Kirchner: and the executive committee
Sonenshine: yeah, a lot of meetings there. Yeah, you’re right, in the beginning it was, there was a honeymoon period. People liked him. David was very upbeat and very charming,
Kirchner: and I think for the first time he came in and ran it like a business meeting, PowerPoint presentations and
Sonenshine: Right. Right.
Kirchner: and that kind of thing. Graphs showing how the symphony was doing financially and so forth. And I think that might have been the first time we ever saw that. So, that was very impressive and then, I think…. Didn’t that period coinside, coincide with an economic downturn, too? I thought we had one.
Sonenshine: Well, there was an economic downturn in the early part of 2000. So, could be. But, one of the key things that I remember under his directorship was his presenting our choice. We could either downsize to fit our budget or find a way to increase the budget. And we tried increasing the budget. It didn’t succeed, and nobody wanted to downsize. So, his two options just didn’t seem to
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match with reality, and I think it was at that point that things really began to feel really glum. So, that’s what, unfortunately, what I remember.
Major: When he said “downsize,” did that mean a smaller season, or a smaller ensemble, or something else entirely?
Sonenshine: He didn’t specify. It’s just that we were reaching at that point to go to a five and a half million dollar budget, and it, and downsizing meant to go to a four and a half million dollar budget. Whichever way that would come out.
Kirchner: And actually I, that problem has been an ongoing problem. I hear it with different figures but…
[Laughter]
Sonenshine: yeah, the figures are up higher now! Now it’s a six and a half million and …
Major: Well, that has certainly been one of the themes of, of the interviews, you know, from people who were on the board in the 60’s to people who were, are on the board now! It’s a, you know it’s just a theme. So, any more comments about the executive directors that you thought were particularly effective?
Sonenshine: I think Carla is effective, I really do. And of course John Marison certainly was.
Kirchner: Yes. He had to come in at a very difficult time and do a turnaround.
Sonenshine: Very much so. And he had the respect of a lot of people because people knew him from his position at WHRO and that made it easier for him. Carla came in as an unknown, and I don’t know what will take place this year cause this is the first year that they really have a big budget deficit. They balanced the budget in the last couple of years. So, she is going to be tested now, but she, I feel she’s be very effective thus far.
Kirchner: She has managed to build a real rapport with the musicians.
Sonenshine: Yes, yeah.
Kirchner: Um, maybe for the first time. I am trying to think of any other director who has done that. I mean in a real personal way.
Sonenshine: Yeah, could be.
Kirchner: She shows up at rehearsals and concerts backstage…
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Sonenshine: She shows up at all events in which she can network and really good.
Major: Yeah, she’s everywhere!
Sonenshine: Yeah, yeah.
Kirchner: But, but I think maybe that was the first time you’d find the executive director backstage with the musicians before virtually every concert.
Sonenshine: Yeah, yeah.
Major: Are there any other staff of the symphony that the league interact with regularly? Or even occasionally?
Sonenshine: Well, when Ernestine was heading the education department we, we were, I know I was the one that said that the, there should someone in the staff that should be a liaison to the league and be on the league’s board. And at first there was another, another development director, Lori somebody or other was totally ineffective….
Kirchner: Gabaly.
Sonenshine: Gabaly yeah. Uh, she was it, but then ultimately it was Ernestine and that has, even though Ernestine is not on the staff anymore, she’s continued to play a major role with the league
Kirchner: Right. And I think she is on the board.
Sonenshine: Yeah, yeah. Major: Yeah, I see her all the time.
Sonenshine: Yeah, yeah. So that started when she was on the staff.
Kirchner: I think Brad Kirkpatrick came while I was president, and that was a real help because the guy is … extremely good as a comptroller, which is actually what he is.
Sonenshine: Yeah.
Kirchner: And ,... I went in to see him fairly constantly about things related to the league. He was very helpful. Still is; I still talk to him.
Sonenshine: Yeah, I remember talking to him about the, the tales of dealing with the, the car raffle when one of the things that I was sort of astonished, and they
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never dealt with any issues of taxes and were we supposed to collect the taxes, and I can remember looking into it, and we were under the tax ID of the symphony, so any mistake we made would mean [laughter] they were liable! And nobody on the league, in the league had any idea; does this money come in, money go out? [laughter] You know it’s a, so I can appreciate what you are saying. That’s when I started working with, or at least communicating with Brad, and honestly I don’t remember his coming to the, the meetings when I was president, but certainly the communication began.
Kirchner: Right. The main thing while I was in office was the boutique.
Sonenshine: Yeah, yeah.
Kirchner: Which was run by a very dedicated set of volunteers but the accounting for it and inventory management and so forth.
Sonenshine: Yeah, I began to realize that, and I think the change really came in your presidency.
Kirchner: Right.
Sonenshine: That was a biggie. And it was a difficult one to deal with because the person who had run it before, she sort of had, as if it was her baby and dare, how dare anyone criticize how she’s doing it. She was the buyer and, and you know kept the inventory at her house. It was no controls at all.
Kirchner: Right. But that, that had run very successfully that way for a long time, so.
Sonenshine: Well, it had run, and as far as we know, it was successful. We just don’t know, and that, there were no records.
Kirchner: Yeah, I think as far as the bottom line, you could tell…
Sonenshine: Oh yeah, yeah from that standpoint
Kirchner: …it probably was. But Brad… came in and took a look at it, was very worried that we could be in trouble in terms of just not having a good grasp on how much we…..
Sonenshine: the idea of collecting sales tax; they were appalled. So one of the things I remember saying, “Ok, if you sell a CD, instead of collecting, you know calculating it, just up it by a dollar, and they’ll figure out how much of that goes to sales tax.” [laughter] Because they just, they just didn’t grasp the idea that this is a, this is a business that you have to collect sales tax on now. You may want to eliminate that from, [laughter] because you know after all, it was a volunteer
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organization, and people felt that they were doing a good deed for the symphony, and they were. And much of these requirements had come in since they had first been involved in doing this, so. I, I can see from their standpoint this, that was putting it at a different level that they didn’t want to be involved with. That was one of the things that took place. And I know it as under your presidency that it really cleaned up. [laughter]
Kirchner: And it’s, it’s run well ever since.
Major: I would imagine it runs very well now.
Sonenshine: And they sell much, much more than they used to.
Major:Well, they’re everywhere!
Kirchner: Yes! And we are talking about the Collins now, who really deserves a lot of credit.
Sonenshine: They do, they really do.
Major:They’re wonderful! And there is no performance where they are not right there with their stuff, and one of them is a CPA.
Kirchner: Right!
Helen Sonenshine: Yes and…
Kirchner: Which is great, too.
Helen Sonenshine: And because they are doing it on the other side of the water, this side of the water, and all the different venues, there is a point of accountability. As opposed to, “Well, it’s so and so’s turn to man it,” and ….
Kirchner: Right.
Major:Who is the, the first music director that, that you have, have a very definite ... experience with?
Sonenshine: Experience with or memory of?
Major:Yeah, what do you remember because what I, what I… want to, to ask is how do you characterize, how can you characterize the Russell Stanger period, for example? I‘m guessing that neither of you even lived here in the Edgar Schenkman period?
Sonenshine: I, we moved here during the Edger Schenkman period, and I was appalled. And I understand that he is a good conductor, but the symphony was a
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volunteer organization, amateurish, and I gather John Lindberg may have been there, but there weren’t too many professionals there. And I, I hesitate to criticize a music director, not knowing the constraints he is operating under, but I remember reading your biography of the symphony or details of the budget and what they had to work with, so a very lot, very probably was not his fault, at least to a large extent. But when Russell Stanger came, it was a quantum leap ahead.
Major:Is that right!
Sonenshine: And even though later on, I began to feel, “Ugh, can I take this any longer?” because it was still a volunteer organization. But he did institute… some changes, I think, in getting more professionalism into the symphony.
Major:When Russell Stanger came, didn’t he have everybody re-audition?
Sonenshine: I was not involved enough to know that. I just know that the quality was…
Kirchner: Who’s the one after him? Richardson?
Major:There were two ...
Sonenshine: Winston Dan Vogel
Major:There was Richard Williams and then Winston Dan Vogel. Both of them were short-term conductors, and I am wondering what you can tell me about either of them?
Kirchner: Richard…
Sonenshine: Richard Williams
Kirchner: Williams…
Sonenshine: I did not like him at all!
Kirchner: I thought he was the one who really cleaned house.
Sonenshine: It could be.
Kirchner: Am I remembering that correctly?
Major:Cleaned house?
Kirchner: In terms of a lot of musicians who had been there forever.
Sonenshine: Was it Winston Dan Vogel? I thought was the one.
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Kirchner: Really.
Sonenshine: I thought, my sense…
Kirchner: I thought Richard Williams started it.
Sonenshine: It could be. You know, that’s the thing. As we were talking about, as president of the league, you sometimes you just can’t do that much because change is so difficult, but you get things started. And then the next person gets much of the credit, and really it, it goes to both because…
Major:Sure.
Sonenshine: You can’t, so my sense is that each one moved it further ahead.
Kirchner: That’s, that’s true.
Sonenshine: I think I, I sense that Russell Stanger made a huge difference when he first came but after a while began to realize the limitations, and I am not sure that it necessarily got worse. It’s just that the big jump seemed so wonderful, but it was nowhere near enough. I did not have a good memory of Williams, Richard Williams?
Major:Richard Williams
Sonenshine: I, I guess we went…
Kirchner: I think he was not necessarily a very personable person.
Sonenshine: That could be the reason, yeah.
Kirchner: And…. maybe a bit rigid.
Sonenshine: I remember when Winston Dan Vogel first was hired, and I think they had him come as a guest conductor first, and I was very impressed with him, but as I understand afterwards, he and the musicians did not get along at all, and I think his demands were high, and it, it just didn’t matter. It just didn’t reach up to his requirements, and so I think, you know, there were short periods, so it’s hard to remember exactly. All I can remember is sitting and hearing the Mahler First, and the horn came in with an awful, awful sound, and the horns are so important in Mahler, and I thought, “Oh, God, how much more can we take this!” [laughter]
Major:Do, do you have any idea why the Russell Stanger period ended?
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Sonenshine: I don’t know, I really don’t know.
Kirchner: I am positive I knew at the time, but I cannot remember.
Sonenshine: I wasn’t involved. All I know is that there was a time, and this may have had nothing to do with it, when the Walter Noona, the consolidation of the orchestras and that whole issue with Walter Noona, and, and I don’t know that maybe two separate events. But there was a tremendous amount of turmoil in general. And that may have had something to do with it; I don’t know. You probably know more about it then I after interviewing everyone.
Major:Yeah, and the Walter Noona affair, I think, happened in the early eighties and … Maestro Stanger exited in 1980, so what about either Williams or Winston Dan Vogel? Do you have any idea why either of their periods ended?
Sonenshine: Well, Winston Dan Vogel, I think, ended because the musicians didn’t get along with him. I am pretty sure that had, was a major reason. Richard Williams, I am not sure.
Kirchner: My memory, which could be really faulty, is that it was pretty much the same thing with him.
Sonenshine: That could be, yeah.
Major:Ok.
Sonenshine: And I might add that, when JoAnn Falletta came in, one of the amazing things, after that kind of experience, there was a real love affair between JoAnn and the musicians, and that that has continued to today. And, and the music shows it, too. I mean, of course, she cleaned house in many ways, and she brought in new music, musicians.
Major:Did she clean house?
Sonenshine: Well that’s a, that’s a sweeping term. I mean she made changes to the musicians, so she, she knew she had to get good professional musicians. And, she may have done it in a way that nobody felt that they were swept under the rug. I don’t know, because everybody loves her. You can’t help but like her.
Kirchner: Yeah
Major:In preparing for these interviews, I discovered that for a long time the local symphony leadership in this area expected that they would recruit a conductor and that conductor would settle locally, and that the Virginia Symphony Orchestra would be his primary conducting association. Can you explain that perspective, and can you suggest what changed to make it possible for them to recruit JoAnn?
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Kirchner: I think the model that JoAnn works in is very common … today. And I almost think economically it is the one that makes the most sense. And, if the symphony was going to grow, that chances, and improve, I think the chances were better with someone of a very high quality who wanted to conduct in two places, and, and JoAnn has handled that beautifully. As opposed to someone you might be able to recruit who would settle here for the long term and be sort of a community figure conductor.
Sonenshine: It’s interesting to me that the, at your comment about their wanting, or having wanted someone who would settle here and their primary focus would be this orchestra, which hasn’t always been called the Virginia Symphony, because I think that is very reflective of the Norfolk-centric view that people have here. And somehow, amazingly, I think, miraculously, that the view, the outlook of, towards, of moving towards a professional organization where the musicians also perform elsewhere in the summers and sometimes they’re soloists elsewhere. It’s a different world, so if, if some of the people formerly in the league or in the league currently but have been there a long time had a different view, that was part of the volunteer organization that they formed, what about ninety years ago.
Major:What can you tell me about the process that took place before these several local ensembles merged to become the Virginia Orchestra Group in 1979?
Sonenshine: I wasn’t really involved then
Kirchner: I wasn’t, yes. I didn’t move here until ‘75.
Sonenshine: I moved here in ’61,but really wasn’t involved with it. ODU in fact had a very good music program, but here but also a presentation what do they call it, the ODU, they had several times a year, they brought guests in, and that was one of the best things going, in, in the 60s. So the symphony was just a volunteer organization, so I really don’t, was not involved with that.
Major:Ok, ok. What did the, has the symphony league and its historical antecedents contributed to the viability of the symphony?
Kirchner: I think major fundraising.
Sonenshine: Yeah, right.
Kirchner: Over a long period of time. I think there’s currently a search for what we do now because the car raffle became untenable with changes in state regulations to keep doing, and so they’ve, there’s a search on to try to find something that will bring in that kind of income. What I found when I was president was that there are a lot of people out there who just automatically wrote
[17]
that check for $100.00 every year. It was a very, even, though as you said, Helen, I know it hit the peak during your, your time, I was surprised at the percentage of people who were, were sure contributors, if you will, to the raffle.
Sonenshine: Yeah.
Major:There as a time when the Symphony League, or its predecessors, regarded promoting the symphony as one of their, their major responsibilities. Do you think that the league now thinks in those terms?
Kirchner: I am not sure that during my term, the league thought that one of its jobs was to promote the symphony. I think it, they understood it to be support the symphony, and they, the league did want to, I think, have its own vision of what that meant and carry it out themselves.
Sonenshine: Yeah.
Kirchner: I think…. sometimes if something was requested from the symphony, the league had to take a long time to study it and make sure it was something they wanted to do, and it wasn’t always.
Sonenshine: Yeah, there, there was this sense of that’s one organization believes a different organization, you know a mission. It was a, very much “them and us,” and there was a working together, but still, as you said, if the symphony wanted us to take on something, we would sometimes think about it. Should we take on that job or not. So promoting the symphony, in fact you made an interesting comment that there are so many people who would write a check to the league for the car raffle. Would they write that $100.00 check directly to the symphony if asked? I wonder how many do. Very often they wrote it to the league, not to the symphony.
Kirchner: Oh, that’s true.
Major:Interesting point. How strong has the symphony been in the last ten years or so?
Sonenshine: Strong, what do you mean by strong? In terms of musicianship or, the symphony or the Symphony League?
Major:Symphony.
Sonenshine: That’s what I thought you said, so in terms of musicianship or in terms of outreach to the community, or in terms of…
Kirchner: --------- [laughter]
[18]
Major:Yeah, I was thinking in general, and it could be any of those things, certainly musically for sure, but in other ways too. Reputation ____ the things.
Kirchner: Well, what you said just made me realize that I think the symphony has been very strong. Overall, it’s had financial issues. So far it’s managed to work through those. In terms of not just musicianship but I think the cohesiveness of the symphony itself, those people get together for parties, I mean, they spend so much time together, you would think they might want to go off and have fun with their own friends and so forth, but they tend to socialize with each other. The league and the symphony have gotten much, much closer, and there’s a lot of personal interaction there. JoAnn, of course, has brought a lot of strength to the symphony, too. And I think in the light of the constant economic struggles, which organizations all over the country face, all those other factors are, are what keep the symphony going, in spite of the economics.
Sonenshine: One other thing that I think has been happening, and I am trying to think to what extent it’s especially expanded under Carla, cause I think it has, and that is outreach to the community both in terms of playing in the venues all around the area but also in terms of having parties, both at the concert, you know, receptions at the concert halls, parties in the musicians’ homes, as a way of getting the community to know the musicians. Now prior to that, in the very beginning, many of the musicians teach, so they get to know people in the community that way, but this is in a more social way, and I think that has been very good to, for promoting the symphony.
Kirchner: Right, and I should have mentioned Carla in talking about ___ because, she’s…. has a real solid background with Seattle and St. Louis, and I think that experience, her experience working with the musicians in those organizations when it comes to, for example, union negotiations which can be very interesting, she’s… she brings a lot of expertise that’s _____.
Major:What additional things need to happen to increase the symphony’s financial stability?
Sonenshine: Money [laugh]
Kirchner: The capital campaign has to work. And it’s…. it’s still in an initial stage, I think, and the current economic climate is not helping out.
Sonenshine: No, in this current economic climate, the situation seems to have just come upon us. I mean, it was coming to us; you sort of knew it, but it’s just in the last couple of months, I think, everybody is somewhat dazed in general, and how it’s going to affect all the arts organizations when there’s so many needs out there. It’s kind a hard to, to foresee. The capital campaign needs ____ , a large part of it was to go to the endowment which would be so important, but they’ve got to live in the here and now, as well as raising money for the future. So…
[19]
Kirchner: And that, of course, has been, I remember the same conversations back when I was president because I was in favor of the money going to the endowment with the idea that it would, over the future, spin off revenue for the symphony.
Sonenshine: Well, I was, too, and I helped raise money for it. As a concern I remember that I had at the time was when you have a campaign for the endowment, it’s clear that it’s for the endowment, but when you’re raising money for the symphony, you have to let people know whether it’s for today or for tomorrow and especially the symphony had a really big deficit then, too, and they overcame the deficit because of the generosity of David and Susan Goode, and so that’s another thing that they needed some more angels. So,…
Major:In 1985 musicians were put on salary for the first time. It was the first time there was a full-time salaried orchestra. Do you have a sense of how that happened finally after so many years when the symphony was not a full-time salaried orchestra?
Sonenshine: I was not involved with it then.
Major:No, there are no, you never heard any talk about it?
Kirchner: There gonna, I know I have in the past, and it’s, it’s gone. [laughter]
Sonenshine: When did they become unionized? Did that have anything to do with it? I don’t know.
Major:I am not positive. I am sure that we could find out with that chronology that I did. But I don’t really know.
Sonenshine: Yeah, that may have something to do with it, but I really don’t know.
Major:This is probably also way before your time, but did either of you ever work with the youth orchestra?
Kirchner: No.
Major:No, anything about the youth orchestra. How about the community music school?
Kirchner/Sonenshine (?): Uha
Major:Terri, when did you start working, singing with the chorus?
[20]
Kirchner: When it started. Now I am trying to remember when that was. [laughter]
Major:1989.
Kirchner: And I, ok yes.
Major:When Winston Dan Vogel wanted to perform Beethoven Nine.
Kirchner: Yes. I signed up.
Major:I see.
Kirchner: Yes, then they brought Robert Page in to do The Messiah, I know he came once to do The Messiah. I thought he did the Beethoven Nine also, one time. And …
Major:So, what more can you tell us about the start of the chorus?
Kirchner: Well, for a long time, well, for I think about six or seven years, the Virginia Chorale, which was then Norfolk Pro Musica and it might have moved on to be Virginia Pro Musica by that time, had existed with Don McCullough as the director. And I am not sure exactly how it happened but… the symphony apparently realized the need of the chorus and hired Don and …., and I at the time was still singing with the Chorale and so I moved in. What I don’t really know is how all the other people got recruited, but I think there was publication of auditions, and Don was very picky, and he started a group that has really, it was, it was very good when it started, and it’s constantly been top-notch ever since. Partly because of the stringent audition and re-audition requirements.
Major:Are there any other things that you thought that I would ask or, or that you wanted to bring out that I haven’t asked about?
Sonenshine: One thing, the question about the Virginia Symphony Chorus reminds me of is; remember we talked about the “us versus them” attitude,
Major/ Kirchner: [agreement]
Sonenshine: and the chorus was a big issue prior to my becoming president, right before my becoming president, because remember I said the major function of the league was to bring cookies and refreshments for the symphony, and there was a big to-do about, do we bring refreshment for all the chorus members, and “No, no, that’s not part of the symphony!” But, you know, it seems funny now almost, but it was a major issue.
[21]
Kirchner: When you asked the question, I was thinking of the same general topic.[laughter] And I remember the statement made in one of the league board meetings was that “Singers are not musicians,” [laughter] and…
Major:Not the first time I’ve heard that!
Kirchner: and ….
Sonenshine: Some are not, but [laughter] real good singers have to have musicianship.
Kirchner: Right and anybody who was in that group was a musician.
Sonenshine: Yeah.
Kirchner: Again just because of the audition requirements, but I remember Minette Cooper was not on the board at the time, but Minette was also one of the initial members of the symphony chorus, and we both still sing with the chorus. And she heard about that and… got pretty excited, and she said “Yes, they are musicians!” But that carried over into my term, and now the mood has changed. I can’t, I don’t know who, during whose term it happened. Part of it was, I think, Don and then Bob Shoup after him, coming to visit the league and doing previews and sort of turning that whole situation around.
Sonenshine: I think also there are so many more pieces preformed using the chorus that it is virtually impossible to say that when you’ve got this many performances with the symphony chorus as well, together with the orchestra, how can you say that they don’t, that they are not together. So. And, JoAnn is conducting them both, even thought Bob Shoup rehearsed them and so forth. I wish I could…
Kirchner: So there’s, there’s a very positive relationship now.
Sonenshine: Yes.
Kirchner: Between the chorus and the orchestra. And, and actually I, I’m not sure that, that the orchestra was that wild about the chorus to start with. For a while when the chorus sang, the chorus would get really good reviews and sometimes the symphony wouldn’t. [laughter] And sometime to the extent of “The chorus sounded wonderful but was drowned out by the symphony” or “It’s a shame that the symphony didn’t do X, Y, Z.” And that didn’t create a really wonderful mood. I, I’m trying to remember the reviewer back then, …
Major:What was his name, Mark Mobley.
Kirchner: Mark Mobley, right.
[22]
Sonenshine: Oh, yeah.
Kirchner: He wrote several of those! [laughter]
Sonenshine: He was extremely critical so often, ah! Major:I remember that.
Kirchner: But that has all changed. Over time as everybody got to know each other.
Sonenshine: Again, I think its part of the increasing professionalism of the symphony and with it the symphony chorus, even though there are a lot of volunteers, still the presentation is a professional presentation, and it’s treated as such.
Kirchner: And I think both groups go out of their way to say “I’s wonderful to play with you” or “It’s wonderful to sing with you.”
Sonenshine: Yeah.
Major:Any other last comments?
Kirchner: I am, just looking to the future, you didn’t really ask us about that, I don’t think.
Major:No, but please say. [laughter]
Kirchner: I am very hopeful in that we’ve got a very cohesive group of musicians and singers and I think a lot of grassroots support in the community and, as you folks pointed out, really, we’ve really expanded from not being the Norfolk symphony to being the symphony for all of Hampton Roads. And I’m very hopeful that the expansion can continue very, very gradually and that somewhere, somehow the economic supports are going to emerge to do that. And I am also, I think a, a potential problem for the symphony is going to be if and when JoAnn leaves. And whether or not someone of her stature and personality can be found to, to come in.
Sonenshine: Especially if we are still in this economic situation. I don’t want to call it when it is, but you know, we all understand that we don’t know how long this is going to last and if, during that period of time, is when she decides to go elsewhere, and I don’t, I mean they’ve made it, Carla has made it quite clear that it’s not a question of if, it’s a question of when, because she’s got a career ahead of her beyond the Virginia Symphony. We would hope to get someone at least as good as her but…
[23]
Kirchner: But she has a bit of magic that is going to be hard to find someplace else.
Sonenshine: She does, she does.
Kirchner: That really translates into a lot of benefits including economic for the symphony.
Major:Well, this is a wonderful conversation. I enjoyed it very much.
Sonenshine: Well, and we did get it done in a time frame I was hoping we would.
END OF INTERVIEW
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