Major: This is Jean Major. I am with Mary Thrasher on September 13, 2006. Why don’t we start by talking, if you’ll tell me about how you got started with the symphony and the Symphony League.
Thrasher:
Ok. I, my mother used to take me to the symphony when I was a little girl. I’ve said that I,…. my feet didn’t touch the floor, [laughter] but that may be an exaggeration. I don’t, know that would be pretty young, but I was fairly young then. I remember it, that the concerts had been at either Blair or Maury.
Major: Blair, I think. I’m not positive about that, but there was a time when I believe they were at Blair.
Thrasher:
Well, that was a, that’s a beautiful auditorium. I haven’t seen it lately, but, but it was a lovely auditorium. Ok, well that, that’s the one I went to.
Major: So you grew up in Norfolk?
Thrasher:
Yes. Well, I grew up in, in what’s now Chesapeake.
Major: Oh, right.
Thrasher:
I was born in Portsmouth because that was the, the side of the river that my father came from. But we lived out in what’s now Chesapeake because my father had designed and built a railroad track and a lumber mill. And we had a home near there.
Major: Right. And, but even though you didn’t live in Norfolk, your mother saw to it that you came to the symphony in Norfolk?
Thrasher:
Yep, we did. We did. Later on my mother became active in the symphony league. What did they call it then? Called it something else, didn’t they?
Major: The Women’s Committee, The Women’s Association, The Women’s Auxiliary; one of those.
Thrasher:
Well, as time went on, mother became active there and was until she got quite some time, like I have now. [laughter] Oh, I got active in the league was,
[2]
and how I didn’t, why I didn’t get as active as fast as you might think, I had joined the University Women, and it wasn’t long until I was very much involved with the University Women, became the local president, went on the state board and then became the state president. And by then quite a few years had gone by, and of course I had four children, too, so I didn’t get too involved in anything. But my mother had been active in the league. Or in what it was called when, before. I remember that Winnie Maddock and did you ever know Betty Tiernan?
Major: No, I don’t know that name.
Thrasher:
Well, she was active, and she and Winnie came to see me. Winnie being my neighbor and knowing, I guess, that I had done my duty by the University Women [laughter]. And they asked, I think maybe I didn’t pay in my dues, but I had not been active in the league at all till then, and they, Winnie could, in her good days could talk you into anything, so. [laughter] So, that’s when I got interested there, and I really enjoyed in that. Martha Stuart was already active in it, and some other of these people.
Major: We spent some time with Martha Stuart last week. Where you involved in the symphony league first before you went on the board? On the big board?
Thrasher:
Oh yes, yes. I was on the board because I was the president of the league. Or I don’t know maybe I was just a, you know given, I think I, I think I could vote though [laughter] I was the president of the league.
Major: You were on the big board for a long time, though, weren’t you?
Thrasher:
Not, well I don’t know. They made, eventually they made me something they called….
Major: A trustee?
Thrasher:
Trustee, yeah.
Major: I have seen the list of trustees in the program.
Thrasher:
Yeah and a, but you get invited to the annual meeting and reception. [laughter] That’s about all you do with that.
Major: [laughter] Right
Thrasher:
But I a, well, I just enjoyed a lot of the people that I got involved with, the musicians and all. I remember when they, the musicians had the strike, [laughter] and I guess you’ve heard about that, too.
Major: Yes, a little bit.
[3]
Thrasher:
A little bit. I don’t know any, any real details. But it was…
Major: What were the things, when you were working with either the symphony or the league, what were the things that were your specialties?
Thrasher:
Well, that’s a problem; I don’t think I had a specialty. [laughter] One thing we did, though, that hadn’t been done before, because you know the league was just raising just little sums of money that, you know, lady’s hand work and stuff like that, they’d set out. But, we decided when I was, that we were going to have a ball. So we had the first symphony ball. Oh, and Chrysler Hall had then opened, and we thought this would be a beautiful place to have a ball. And so we did. I knew absolutely nothing about having balls. [laughter] Skitch Henderson had been here to do a pops concert, and we got him to come back and play for the ball. And another year it was when Elizabeth Taylor was married to…
Major: John Warner
Thrasher:
Mr. Warner, John Warner
Major: Senator Warner
Thrasher:
We had, she was the attraction at one ball. [laughter]
Major: [laughter]
Thrasher:
Anyway, we didn’t have a, Skitch wanted a certain piano. Well, we found that we could get the piano; we could rent the piano from a music store that was down there. There’s something else there now. But, anyhow we rented the piano, and I think I have never been as scared in my life as when I watched these men from the company that we were renting the piano carry the piano up the stairs. And I thought, oh, what will happen if they drop it. [laughter]
Major: Would it be worse for the piano or the men?
Thrasher:
Both! [laughter] So anyway we, we did make-- I want to say we made $5,000 which-- maybe just a, but that figure sticks in my head. It’s no money at all really now. [laughter]
Major: No but at that time it was a, it was a good profit.
Thrasher:
So then we had, after that we had several symphony balls. And I got to take Elizabeth Taylor to the restroom. [laughter] Oh, well, I don’t know as I’m telling...
Major: The same restroom where we all line up now?
[4]
Thrasher:
Yeah, the one up on the...
Major: On the second floor
Thrasher:
Second floor. Yeah.
Major: On the second floor. In, in your time with the symphony and the league, what, what were the high points?
Thrasher:
I guess when JoAnn was hired. [laughter] I liked, I liked Russell. He’s a good fellow. I still see him every now and then, but, you know, we just faced the fact that if we were really going big time, we needed somebody more ---. But then the first couple of people they hired, man named Williams.
Major: Richard Williams.
Thrasher:
You’ve heard of him?
Major: Certainly have.
Thrasher:
Somebody said they thought he didn’t really like music. [laughter]
Major: Oh! [laughter]
Thrasher:
I forget who it was told me that. Well, he, he was not inspiring at all. Then that other fellow…
Major: Winston Dan Vogel
Thrasher:
Yeah, you got it. He just was mean, I think. He treated the players bad; he chased women [laughter]
Major: He was mean to the musicians, and he chased women.
Thrasher:
Yeah. [laughter] He was something.
Major: Both of those guys were very short-timers here. Can you tell me, for example, Richard Williams, how come his time was so short? How did it end?
Thrasher:
He just didn’t make pretty music. [laughter] How did it end? Well, I’m not sure I know the-- he just didn’t-- I don’t know how long the guy’s contract was for or anything. But they just decided that he wasn’t as good as Russell. [laughter] We hadn’t, we hadn’t moved forward.
[5]
Major: And, and I gather that, from something you just said, that by the time Russell Stanger’s period was over, the board thought that they needed something else to move to the next level, right? So that’s how Mr. Stanger’s period ended? He was eased out?
Thrasher:
Excuse me?
Major: Was he eased out?
Thrasher:
I’m not, I wasn’t on the inside [laughter] enough to be able to answer that question there. Maybe eased out. He had ____ or married a Norfolk girl, you know.
Major: Right, Millie
Thrasher:
So, so I really, really don’t know. I always liked him. He’s-- saw him not too long ago. Of course, Millie’s dead. He was a twin, you know. Did you know that?
Major: Yes, I know he’s a twin.
Thrasher:
Well they… there was a last concert party at my house, and I went to-- the party had been coming along, you know, and this fellow came in that I thought was, [laughter] I didn’t know then that he was a twin, and still I can’t imagine, and I was telling him what a good job he’d done that night. Later on he-- they’re really identical. It was funny.
Major: And what was Winton Dan Vogel’s music-making career like? What was the symphony like when, when he was the conductor?
Thrasher:
He was there such as short time. Well, just-- he wasn’t kind to people, and he wasn’t kind to the musicians, I guess. So the symphony didn’t sound so hot. But it was , I think he was a good musician if he’d just had a kinder heart.
Major: And do you know how his time ended?
Thrasher:
I don’t know how, whether he had a contract that ran out or whether they just fired, I really don’t know.
Major: Were you ever, in all this time that you worked with the league, were you ever involved with the youth orchestra?
Thrasher:
No.
Major: Or, I gather that, that was a going concern and a real source of pride among people in the league.
[6]
Thrasher:
No, I don’t think we did; I don’t remember doing anything much with the league.
Major: How about the Community Music School? Do you remember about that?
Thrasher:
Yeah, yeah.
Major: Tell me about that, because I haven’t been able to find anybody yet who had much recollection about the Community Music School.
Thrasher:
Well, Winnie did an awful lot about that.
Major: Really.
Thrasher:
She, she worked hard for that. And I guess you haven’t, she’s not, I don’t think she’s in condition to interview. [laughter]
Major: We, we did, we talked with her.
Thrasher:
Oh, you did? How did she do, all right? No….. I am trying to think. Did you mention it to Martha Stuart?
Major: Yes. I’ve mentioned it to most of the people I talked with, and most of them had, didn’t, weren’t involved with that, they said. There was a, an oral history interview long ago that was, when faculty members of the university retired, then somebody, long before our time, did oral history interviews, and Charles Vogan, in his interview, talked about the symphony and the Community Music School, and how it was important to him as a way to develop string players because there wasn’t much programming in strings in the schools. And that’s really most of what I know about it.
Thrasher:
I guess the league gave some money to the music school, but I don’t know that for sure.
Major: Well it may be that in, in some earlier records I can find, can piece together some more information about it.
Thrasher:
I knew it existed. I thought it was a good thing. [laughter] But I, I didn’t know…
Major: Did you ever sing in the chorus?
Thrasher:
No. No, I don’t have that. I love to sing, but I don’t [laughter], I don’t have a good voice.
Major: I know you are a singer. I thought you were a singer?
[7]
Thrasher:
No, my daughter is a singer.
Major: I know she is. Yes, I…
Thrasher:
Yeah, I used to say that if I could have a talent, I’d like to be able to sing. So I had a baby that could sing. [laughter]
Major: Yeah, and she sings very well.
Thrasher:
Yeah, we’re proud of her.
Major: What can you tell me about the process that took place that resulted in the merger of the Norfolk Symphony and the Virginia Beach and the Peninsula? What can you tell me about all of that?
Thrasher:
Oh, I know there were people pulling in all directions, and, of course Virginia Beach [laughter] didn’t like being second class to the Norfolk Symphony.
Major: Right.
Thrasher:
And that, and that, oh what’s his name that was the—oh, he played the piano, and he was…
Major: Walter Noona.
Thrasher:
Walter Noona. Oh, I hadn’t thought about him in a long time. I think a lot of it maybe was his ego, and there were a lot of people that his kind of music sort of appealed to, too. Was there somebody else that was involved in that?
Major: Yeah, there was Cary, was, is his name Cary McMurtree? Cary….
Thrasher:
McMurran?
Major: The man on the Peninsula. I, I’ve never known him so I,…
Thrasher:
---- no I don’t know.
Major: The conductor of the Peninsula orchestra.
Thrasher:
Not McMurran?
Major: Maybe. It may be.
Thrasher:
It was just a matter of each one protecting [laughter] their own turf.
[8]
Major: So it was, it was a bumpy road, and there was a big to-do about Walter Noona’s exit, right?
Thrasher:
Yeah, oh yeah.
Major: And is it possible that the bumpiness of all of that contributed to Richard Williams’ lack of success?
Thrasher:
I don’t think so.
Major: I,…
Thrasher:
I, I don’t know. It may be something I’m just unaware of. You know I often wondered why they, I can’t remember who was on what search committee and all that, but I often wondered how come they hired him to start with. And then there were some marital problems with Richard Williams. He and his wife split up.
Major: Yeah, I know that there was some messiness about that in the midst of the messiness with the orchestra. Aside from, from these, the balls and other things that the symphony league did to fund-raise, what other things were major contributions that the symphony league made?
Thrasher:
Oh, gosh. Oh, we had, you know a, attic sales, [laughter] that kind of thing.
Major: Really.
Thrasher:
Uh-hu. I think they had one once over in Stockley Garden, over in Cist and St. Luke’s church. Something like that. They did it maybe more than once.
Major: Subscriptions? At one time they, they sold all the subscriptions.
Thrasher:
Oh, that was, that was something we never, never really did really well is selling subscriptions.
Major: Is that right?
Thrasher:
Well, they just kind of bumped it in our lap, and, and we tried, and then we had phone-a-thons.
Major: Yeah, I have heard about the phone-a-thons. We, we had an afternoon where the phone-a-thon process was described to us.
Thrasher:
[laughter]
[9]
Major: And there was a time when, in fact maybe, maybe this is something that the league devotes a lot of time to now, and that’s the educational program.
Thrasher:
Oh, we offered that at a, you know, some of the musicians come and talk about, you know, their instruments and what have you.
Major: And that, that still goes on.
Thrasher:
Oh, yeah.
Major: We’ve occasionally been part of evenings like that.
Thrasher:
I don’t know. It’s been about three years or more since I’ve been able to participate in some of those things.
Major: Overall, how important do you think that the women were in insuring the viability of the symphony?
Thrasher:
In sharing what?
Major: Insuring the viability of the symphony.
Thrasher:
Oh.
Major: Keeping it going.
Thrasher:
I don’t think that they really, by and large, that they really understood how, you know, that they needed to raise more money than they were raising. I mean, it was more like, you know little ladies craft sales and stuff like that. I am trying to think if I can think of successful kinds of fundraising. I know my mother was making all these, you know, little sets of table mats and things like that. [laughter] And she had a lot of fabric and trim and all. And so when she became ill, I finished all that stuff.
Major: Oh, gosh. Well, we have heard about the Winnie Baldwin car raffles.
Thrasher:
Oh, yeah.
Major: That, that she got this league started doing car raffles.
Thrasher:
Well, I guess she had a lot to do with it.
Major: Yeah. There seem to be a long time when people in this community thought that the director of the symphony had to be a resident here and this had to be his only symphony job. Can you give me any perspective about why they thought that or what made them change their mind so that they could hire JoAnn?
[10]
Thrasher:
I don’t know. Maybe they just thought they could make better music [laughter] if, if the director didn’t go off somewhere, I don’t know. But the car, was the car raffle successful? Real successful this year?
Major: I, I never know about that because I’m so much on the periphery of the league. I only joined the league when this project started. You know, I thought that I needed to join, you know, to show good faith, I guess. And so I did, but I, I have never known anything about whether the car raffle is successful or what other things the, the league does to, to earn money. We did talk to somebody who talked about raising money with a style show and, and then eventually that wasn’t ….
Thrasher:
Oh, yeah, they did that several years.
Major: Right, right yeah. And a, but my sense is the amount of money that they try to earn with the car raffle is way more than any of these other things raised.
Thrasher:
Yeah. Well I, I think, you know, that’s what they’re concentrating on, I do believe. Like I say, I have been kind of out of touch now for several years.
Major: But they, but they seem to be mainly fundraising. That seems to be their main job now.
Thrasher:
Well, yeah, well they still do, do they still play a part in the children’s concert things?
Major: They usher.
Thrasher:
Getting them there and getting them back.
Major: Yeah. They usher at least. People have talked to us about the fact that they ushered and so on. So, so I know that they do that.
Thrasher:
Well, I thought they did.
Major: Yeah right, right. Do you remember when the symphony became salaried for the first time? When it became a salaried orchestra instead of sort of catch as catch can?
Thrasher:
I don’t remember when, but I remember… when it happened. Was that, did they go on strike? I am trying to, one time they went on strike, or they were just about to go on strike.
Major: They, there have been what, one or two strikes maybe? I know there was one.
Thrasher:
Yeah.
[11]
Major: They, I think they became salaried in 1985.
Thrasher:
Well, I would have been around then.
Major: Yeah, yeah. And I would imagine that that made an enormous difference in how the symphony could move ahead. Is that right?
Thrasher:
Well, I think, I think so. Yeah. Well certainly, probably a combination of that and JoAnn.
Major: What do you think JoAnn has done for the whole business?
Thrasher:
Well, I think she has the musicians with her like nobody else has, and she’s just such a winsome person. [laughter]
Major: Yes, she is.
Thrasher:
And a good musician, too.
Major: She really is a magnetic person.
Thrasher:
Oh she is, yeah.
Major: Yeah.
Thrasher:
We’re really lucky.
Major: Well we really were. We really were.
Thrasher:
I, I haven’t seen her husband; well, of course, I haven’t gone to any of the social things or anything. So I didn’t know whether...
Major: Did you hear the concert on Saturday night?
Thrasher:
No.
Major: Well I, there was one place where the clarinets, it must have been Rite of Spring, it was the, you know, they had big orchestration on Saturday night, and the clarinets all stood up, and there he was right next to Patti. So he, he played on Saturday night.
Thrasher:
Oh, good.
Major: Yeah, yeah. And I’ve only met him once at the, the event that they had when Renee Fleming was here. You remember they had the dinner in the tent and that whole
[12]
business. Just by accident he was seated next to me at my table. So I talked to him that night. But, yeah, he, he’s definitely on the scene.
Thrasher:
Well, good.
Major: Yeah, right. Are there things that, that you thought about in connection with this that I haven’t asked about? Are, are there things that, that you’d like to mention that I haven’t asked about?
Thrasher:
Well, I am just wondering. Let me. Oh, I started telling you about Winnie and Betty Tiernan coming to me to-- I don’t know as I was even-- I, I might have paid dues, but I was not participating in the league then cause I had all these AAUW jobs that I seemed to fall into. But they came, and I said “I can’t do that, I don’t know anything about…” Anyhow, they talked me into it, and so I had to start from scratch. Where is-- I had the one that I wrote answers in. Let me see if I can—oh, this is just mainly biographical information about me. [laughter] Oh, I do --- you want my children’s names and education.
Major: I don’t know. I didn’t make up that form.
Thrasher:
Ok. No, I am always proud to tell about my children. What was my occupational experience? I only had one job. I worked two years for the North Carolina State Board of Health as a nutritionist and public health educator. So that doesn’t really have anything to do with the problem at hand. Oh, this, this was, how serious was the investigation of a possible merger with the Richmond Symphony in 1989?
Major: Yeah, can you tell us about that?
Thrasher:
All I know is that it wasn’t very serious. [laughter] I don’t think that would ever happen. I think poor, you know, Richmond always thinks they’re way ahead of everybody else [laughter], and in this case Norfolk was ahead of them. Oh do you work with the youth orchestra, the community service league, the chorus..?
Major: Yeah, those were things…
Thrasher:
Oh, if applicable, were you ever a career woman? A very short career.
Major: You were a professional volunteer, though. You, professional community activist person because you did the, the AAUW; you did alumni things for your college; you worked on the school integration thing; you worked with the symphony and the symphony league; you did a lot of things. You were a professional community person.
[13]
Thrasher:
Oh, this is a question I, I’d like to hear what you have to say on it. What did or does the Virginia Symphony Orchestra Foundation contribute to the symphony’s viability?
Major: I don’t know much about it except that I assume that it manages the endowment.
Thrasher:
Yeah.
Major: What do you know?
Thrasher:
Yeah I think that’s what it does. I just wondered how much money was it. You know how big it was.
Major: That I don’t know.
Thrasher:
I have no idea in the world.
Major: No.
Thrasher:
Oh, here we go. Something you’ve asked, as records show that musicians were put on salary in 1985.
Major: Right.
Thrasher:
Resulting in a full time salaried orchestra for the first time. How did it happen? Well, I don’t know. Did recruitment of musicians nationally become easier as a result? I would say it almost bound to. Is it still difficult? I imagine it is. [laughter] Are auditions quite competitive now? I don’t really know about any of these. Oh, how did the symphony’s partnership with Norfolk State develop?
Major: Do you know about that?
Thrasher:
Well I know that Georgia Ryder, you know who Georgia Ryder is. It was sad; you know she died with Alzheimer’s.
Major: Yes, yes.
Thrasher:
What, it was about a year ago, I reckon. Wonderful woman. She brought a lot of students here and Norfolk State, who went into the symphony.
Major: Really.
Thrasher:
So she was responsible for that. And she used to do some of the lectures about, you know, the coming concert to the league. Do a review or something. Which, which was real interesting. It was interesting. Of course, I am glad the league did that because they went through a little racial episode where
[14]
they didn’t take in black women. But Georgia came and did a lot of the lectures, but she was special; she was a real wonderful person.
Major: Classy woman. You introduced me to her one time at a function. I had talked to her on the phone, but I had never met her.
Thrasher:
Her husband was a musician, too.
Major: Composer. Yeah.
Thrasher:
Sad thing. That was Alzheimer’s, too.
Major: Do you have any idea when the, the symphony league’s policy changed about black women?
Thrasher:
I think it really happened with very little to-do when it happened.
Major: Really.
Thrasher:
Well, it was, it was a later time, and, you know, we’d been through the school business and all that. I don’t remember that it was any big tearing up when it happened. There wasn’t any, there were some interesting questions here. At this time, does anyone in the leadership spend time, time thinking about ways to increase the earning possibilities of the symphony musicians? Well, I guess the thing with Norfolk State went in both directions. So it helped the musicians; it helped the symphony.
Major: I think so.
Thrasher:
Till recently the library has received only documents from the 1990-2000 period today. Do you know where additional files, especially those for the years before 1990, might be? Are there any things at, at Old Dominion?
Major: There are a lot of things at Old Dominion. But, those older records we have not received yet and haven’t really found people who have much of that.
Thrasher:
I am trying to think of the names of some of the people who were involved with the symphony, you know, like businessmen and like that. Have, have you talked to Minette Cooper?
Major: Yes.
Thrasher:
Ok.
Major: Yes, we had a nice time one afternoon with Minette.
[15]
Thrasher:
Well, good.
Major: Yeah.
Thrasher:
Clay Barr
Major: I have not had a chance to talk to her yet, although my intention is to call her later this week, so.
Thrasher:
She can at time be caustic, so don’t, don’t get your feelings hurt. But she was president at one time.
Major: Yes she was.
Thrasher:
And there was a, Jim Babcock.
Major: I plan to chase him down.
Thrasher:
Oh.
END OF INTERVIEW
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