Major: When did your involvement with the symphony begin . . . the symphony or the symphony league? When did it start and what did you do?
White: Well, we moved to Norfolk in 1950. And before very long I got to be friends with Herbert and Elsa Gerst, and Herbert Gerst, and you’ll have to check me on the dates, but I think he was president of Virginia , of the Norfolk Symphony at that time. And they were having great problems because Warner Twiford (?) controlled all of the arts announcements that went into the paper, and Warner was not very fond of Edgar Schenkman. So he often - - and we had no other way of contacting the public If it didn’t appear in the paper that there was going to be a symphony concert, people didn’t know, you know, so he could ruin us, of course. And Herbert had in mind that if he could get a young woman to befriend Warner Twiford(?) and go down and kowtow to him and, you know, and take him little tidbits about the orchestra, he’d be willing to publish some things. I found a little clipping that has a picture of Warner in it. And, of course, I went down and met Warner, and he was something of a womanizer. Woo, you better not put that on . . . I don’t know, he’s been long dead . . . And he was very gallant and seemed to enjoy my coming and always wanted to take me to lunch and things and talk together. Of course he said, “When you have a symphony play a concert, that’s not news. I can’t publish that.” You know, it seemed like it was news to me, and that’s what people want to read. But anyhow, I had to dig and try to find stories, and if I do an interview with somebody or find a story and bring it in to him, he would run it in connection with the announcement of the concert. There was nobody doing paid publicity for the symphony- - nobody was doing anything for pay for the symphony. The budget, you could probably look back and see it, seems to me, the budget was between twelve and eighteen hundred dollars. Edgar and Marguerite, his wife, who was the concertmaster, were paid. And I don’t know that anybody else in the orchestra received any pay. So they didn’t . . . those two didn’t get much. So anybody . . . the symphony was all volunteer, and even the people who were paid had to find other means to earn a living. The Norfolk Symphony was not supporting anybody’s lifestyle, believe me. So it was an interesting learning time for me. I had not known much about symphony directors or how they felt. But I got to be good friends with Edgar and Marguerite. I got some stories . . . I guess this was my prize one because it was the whole page of the paper and boy to have the symphony, you know, a lot of people lived in Norfolk and had no idea we had the symphony. It was a very select group who supported it, I must say. The symphony didn’t go to the general public for support. That was too much trouble. They just went for big
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gifts. They said, “We don’t want to fool around with gifts of twenty-five and fifty dollars. We don’t have the manpower for that.” So they were looking for big gifts. Which meant, of course, that community didn’t get into feeling a part of it and supporting it. And most of the people . . . it made me be on the board of the symphony because I was doing publicity. But I could . . . most of the people on the board were men, and they were businessmen, and they thought a symphony ought to pay its own way. One of the outstanding Norfolk businessmen looked at the financial report at the end of one year and he said, “Well, this thing’s losing money; we’d better quit.” And, you know, we said “No! We didn’t come to be on this board to close the symphony out. We didn’t come- - it isn’t meant to be a moneymaker. It’s meant to be many, many other things.” But it was always a battle. I think many of the people on the board didn’t even go to the symphony at that point. It was kind of prestigious, and businessmen liked their name on it, and they could care less what kind of music played. And of course Edgar Schenkman had a -- he was a talented musician and conductor, but they expected all kinds of things of him. He had to conduct the symphony, choose the music, do all the jobs that much of the staff does now, as well as direct the civic chorus. And that was the burr in the shoe because the civic chorus really was -- very hard to get enough people to sing in it. And there came the time, this is jumping ahead a bit, there came -- every year, they scheduled one concert for the civic chorus. Edgar tried to get people to come and sing and volunteer. One year they scheduled the concert in January, and Edgar came to the board meeting the month before that and said, “I can’t do a civic chorus concert.” He said, “They’re not ready, and most of the members of the chorus are in the Navy, and the fleet is going to be out. They tell me they won’t be here. There’s no way we can do such a concert.” So the businessmen on the board said, ‘’Well, it’s scheduled here that you’re doing one, so you’ll do one.” And Edgar, who had quite a temper, said, “Well, if I have to do -- if you’re going to put that requirement on me, and we have to civic chorus concert, I’d rather resign.” And they said, “Accepted”. Now he had threatened resignation many times before, it was a good trick, and they always said, “Oh, no, no, Edgar, you don’t.” But this time, I think they ganged up on him. And that was a low moment at a board meeting. By then he was beginning to direct the Richmond Symphony some, so he wasn’t completely, you know, left bereft. Because he and Marguerite were both going up to Richmond to do concerts. But it was left… left the Norfolk Symphony without a conductor and left us really flat, and we had to scramble to try to find a conductor. And that’s -- it was not easy because conductors usually sign on maybe a year ahead of time with their orchestra. Many of them were already signed up who might’ve wanted to come. And people who were applying were people who had had no experience, and boy, we expected a lot of anybody coming for that twelve thousand dollar a year salary, or whatever it was! You have to check the exact figures, but it wasn’t much more than that, I think. And that’s when we had the search committee and selected Richard Williams. He came- -several- -we had conductors come and try out. All these things, you ought to check me out, it’ll be in the records.
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Major: Can I check one thing? After Edgar Schenkman was Russell Stanger, not Richard Williams. Right?
White: Are you sure?
Major: Russell Stanger was 1966 to 1980. And then Richard Williams was 1980 to 86.
White: OK, then it was Stanger. And that was very good fortune. And I’m glad you checked me cause you don’t . . . I was on for so many years, I remember crises, but anyhow.
Major: So you were on- -you went on the board in 1960, no 1950.
White: 1951.
Major: 1951 shortly after you came to town . . .
White: Knowing nothing. (Laughter)
Major: Knowing nothing about the symphony.
White: But Winnie Maddock Baldwin was on it then. Have you interviewed Winnie yet?
Major: Yes.
White: ‘Cause she will know everything. And she will be straight on who was conducting. When and everything, I trust her. And Winnie, of course, was the one who got started, as I’m sure she told you, making instruments available to students in the schools. So we began to have some string players coming up in the schools because we had very, very little people . . . chance to find local people here to play. And the big job of the board, besides trying to raise money, was to try to find jobs for potential players, you know, because they’d have to earn a living. If they- -we could get- -find them a job teaching or working somewhere in connection with music was fine, but I remember -- they were very excited for- - because one musician also was a shoemaker and they said, “Oh, we can get- -that’ll be great.” I don’t think he made the audition, but anyhow, we spent a lot of time talking about what kind of jobs, you know, they could find, when they get to Norfolk. How we could find them a place to live, and how they could live, with very little or no salary. Now I talked to, let’s see what I can remember. Luther White, my brother-in-law, was president of the Virginia Symphony in 1961 to 62. And you probably have that record down there. And he remembered that the budget for the symphony that year was thirty-nine thousand.
Major: Total?
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White: Total. So that was up a bit. And Schenkman was already, he thought, directing in Richmond to some extent. And then he named a lot of the people he worked with. Do you want some names of people that were prominent?
Major: Yes.
White: Well, Littleton Parks was the president of the symphony before that and Lee Payne. Lee’s been wonderful with the symphony right along and I’m sure would have good information for you. Ruth Schmitz was a wonder. She and Pierre were kind of the arts supporters of Norfolk . Do you know those names?
Major: Don’t know those names.
White: Well, Ruth was quite a character, and she took copious minutes and that may be what you have. Somebody said they had no record of the symphony before 1985 or something but . . . Doesn’t it go back?
Major: Oh yeah. We do now.
White: OK. How long have you had this book?
Major: I don’t know. Was that the book . . . about three weeks?
White: Oh, okay. So I did hear this other. Well, she took copious minutes. Everything was recorded carefully by Ruth. She also handled all the tickets, which was a terrific job. You know . . . she was the greatest volunteer you can imagine. She’s never been replaced. It would take a dozen people to do that. And then some other people, Guil Ware?
Major: Yes.
White: Was on the board. Wiley Grandy. Nat Bundy.
Major: Yep. Actually I had a discussion with Nat Bundy about this project a week ago.
White: Oh, okay. So you got . . . There were not many women, as you can imagine, on the symphony board, and of course when Minette Cooper came onto the board -- I’m sure she can tell you what date - - that began to change things. Winnie, now maybe this shouldn’t go, but let me tell you. Minette came to a meeting of the symphony board, and she spoke up about something, naturally. And Winnie was horrified, and she said to me afterwards, “Doesn’t she know women don’t speak on the board, certainly not in their first year.” [Laughter] But there were a few women on the board from the symphony guild, you know. Mary Thrasher was on for a long time, right. Martha Stewart.
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Major: This is Judge Stewart’s wife?
White: No. Robert Stewart. He sings in the choir at church.
Major: I thought he was a judge?
White: Oh, judge? I thought you said Jed Stewart.
Major: No, Judge Stewart.
White: Yes, he is. Indeed. I’m sorry. That was my hearing. Yes. She’s a lovely person. She’s worked with the auxiliary, really hard through the years and been great. There’s some marvelous people who’ve been in the symphony and I know you’ll know- -you’ll have many more names than I can give you. After a concert we used to have a party at various guild members’ homes. I had several at my home. I’ll tell you a funny story about that one. And then at the end of the year, Mary Thrasher would have a party when all the members of the orchestra were invited in her home, her lovely home and all of us on the guild brought food, and it was quite an eat-out, I guess, and a very friendly time. And the parties were, were not for all the members of the orchestra, but I think each member of the orchestra had a chance to come at least once to them. Also, Herbert Gerst gave lovely parties.
Major: Were the parties to entertain selected members of the orchestra or was that just a byproduct? Were the parties really for the board?
White: They weren’t for the board. They were for the soloists or guest artists. In honor of the guest artist. And the conductor and some members of the board. You know. I guess the point was just to really celebrate. Do something. At that time there was no place you could take anybody to eat in Norfolk after ten at night. Café 21 was the first to break that rule. And you know, whenever I’ve had people playing in the symphony stay with me, they want to eat later. Oh, quite often we imported players. We had -- I can remember, particularly, two young girls from Julliard who came down for a particular concert, and I don’t think they’d ever been out of New York . Norfolk baffled them completely. They said, “What are all these ships here?” No, they’d never heard of Norfolk . I said, “Well, you know Pearl Harbor’s the second largest harbor in the world, but Norfolk ’s the first one.” They’d never heard of that. But they were into music, and it was interesting to have these gals stay, and then we’d get the guests, usually, to the parties, too. But we all volunteered -- oh, one of the craziest experiences I had was when there was a guest conductor from, not Hungary . . . Rumania . And he was here for two weeks to rehearse the orchestra. I’ll have to look back and see when he was here. I offered to put him up in my home. I really hadn’t thought much about it ahead of time, and it began to seem like kind of a job to have somebody for two weeks, but on the Sunday night when they brought him to the door, he had with him his wife. A very large matron from Rumania , and they
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claimed they could not speak English. Now, if they really wanted to be understood, they could. She called her husband The Maestro, and I think she thought it was - - I was running some kind of hotel that the symphony was paying for because she would say, “The Maestro would like his breakfast” at such-and-such a time. Or his lunch. Or, you know, I went along with this for a while. She was kind of a funny woman, but when the night of the concert came, she had a video camera, and she went down in the front of the hall, up by the stage, and was taking videos of the whole thing, and they were horrified. They’d never had anybody running all around the hall. They were really quite characters that I tried to get it across to the committee that after this one, somebody was opening their home and taking as a guest, maybe the guest should know this was not a paid performance, and I was not a regular hotel. We had a couple of funny exchanges, when I’d say, “I hate to tell you, but I have to be out of the house by one o’clock, so you’ll have to eat your lunch by 12.” I’d get it all ready and say, “Lunch is ready,” and the wife would say, “The Maestro is not ready”. Finally, I had to say, “Well, it’s now or never (laughs) because I’m leaving in ten minutes, so tell the Maestro.” And they usually appeared and ate heartedly. But, it was an experience. I don’t know if that’s what you want but . . . you can edit this, can’t you?
Major: Oh, yes. It sounds as though, over time, you have done a host of different things . . .
White: We all did. We all did. What else could you do, you know, with a group like that.
Major: Well, you started in 1951 doing publicity, and you were personally recruited by the chair- -the president of the board . . .
White: Herbert Gerst. I don’t think that he thought I had talent. I think he thought I might work twice as hard. [Laughter]
Major: And you must have.
White: Well, we got . . . but this is a picture of one of the parties, I think, and they were fun. People working the symphony really knew each other to quite an extent. Sure, it was a fun thing.
Major: I’m sure it was a very small community.
White: Yea, a small community supporting the symphony. You know, we didn’t have many working class people who came or thought about it. And the concerts in the schools were- -do you know when that began, because that was a big step, and that was wonderful. And I think we were beginning to get past. Virginia Knowles was the cellist, and she was Marguerite Schenkman’s sister.
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So- -and Peter, their son, played in the symphony. So it was kind of a family affair.
Major: Peter Schenkman?
White: Who became a professional museum- -I mean musician. I think he plays with the Toronto Symphony.
Major: I’ve seen him referred to here and there.
White: Have you?
Major: Tell us, after you did the publicity assignment, then what other kinds of things did you do on the board? Have you always been on the board?
White: Well, I think it was about 1985, when they suggested that they have trustees and that those of us who’ve been on the board for thirty years or so, might enjoy becoming trustees, which indeed we would, and not coming to all the board meetings.
Major: So you, you served on the symphony board for thirty years.
White: Oh yeah, at least.
Major: At least. And besides publicity, what were your other big assignments?
White: Well, we all just worked on whatever there was. Raising money, calls, telethons; we raised money by calling people. Funny sideline on that -- I really hate to do that. You’d get there, and you’d get your cards, and you shuffle them through and see if there was anybody you knew and what you could do . . . I got my husband to come once, pediatrician. So he said “Sure, I’ll come make some calls.” So I was just about to take my first one, and he’d been talking on the phone all this time, and I’d listen every once in a while, and he’d say “Hello, Dr. White here. Yeah. Well, I see you only gave five hundred last year. Can you up it to eight hundred this year? Good. I’ll put you down.” And by the time- -I think he must have gotten patients or something, I don’t know but by the time I was ready to make my first call, he said “Well, I’ve got ten thousand in pledges here. Shall I turn it in now?” And I said “You what!?” Doctors. He’d come home with a list to call every night to people -- they don’t fool around. You know. This is ____ on the phone, how are you, how’ve you been, not at all. It’s time to make your contribution. So he was always a joke but- -and they’d all say, “Get him back”, but it was not easy to do. Let’s see, as I think about some of the things I jotted down here. Oh, I know. A great moment when Luther was president, in 1960, was when they got the news that the Norfolk Foundation had a gift of 250 thousand dollars for the symphony. That was going to put them in big time. And they were delighted. And of course I think it was Mrs. Darden who motivated
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that. But she never wanted her name. And Luther was so excited he said to Edgar Schenkman, “I’m going to announce it at the concert,” and Edgar said “No, that’s not professional,” and Luther said, “Well I’m going to do it anyhow,” and he did (laughs). And you know, the audience was thrilled, and it was fun, and he still remembers that. I guess everybody who worked on the symphony appreciated Edgar but also had run-ins with him, which is natural. You know he had an ego and a lot of -- I don’t know what you call it anyhow -- artistic temperament, I guess. And he had reason – he wanted to improve the theater, make a shell, and do all these things, and it wasn’t till after he left that they did all these things and relieve the conductor of doing the civic chorus. He had reason to think he was overworked. Let’s see . . . oh, Mrs. Ferebee. You know about her. Of course, you have her little book.
Major: Grace Ferebee . . .
White: Grace. Yeah, of course, Connie’s a wonderful character too, but she was _____, but Grace was . . . a delight, and so in order to get publicity for Warner, I went to interview Grace. Do you know the story about how she had the great piano and all the guest stars who’d come to the symphony through the years? No? It’s a wonderful one. You ought to get Connie to tell you because she got them to sign their name on the piano. This wonderful grand piano, and she was a real musician. She kept it in beautiful condition. It had all these marvelous names, of people who became famous later. And Connie could tell you where on the piano. So I thought this is a good story for Warner, and I made an appointment to go interview her and write a story about her. And on the day of the interview, I called her and said “Grace, is this still convenient? You know, I’m coming at eleven to interview.” “Oh Edie, I was just choosing my beads” [Laughter] That’s become a saying in our family. “Hey, are you going to get here for dinner? – Oh, I’m choosing my beads.” She was wonderful. And so I wrote an article and called her Norfolk ’s Mrs. Music. I don’t know if anybody had done that before, I don’t know why, but that- -she really delighted in that, she got referred to by that, again, and if we find the book, we’ll find the article.
Major: Oh that. We have about ten copies of her book.
White: No, if I find the notebook, the scrap book.
Major: The scrapbook, yea, right.
White: Let’s see if I can think of anything else. Luther didn’t have a lot of memories. In 1960, we still weren’t getting much support from the community, and Winnie was up for doing- -I remember Winnie saying we’re going crack Larrymore Lawns, because that was one of the first, you know suburban divisions, and nobody from Larrymore Lawns ever came in to the symphony, and we were going try to get people in Norfolk other than the inner group, to know. That was the real trick. Then Walter Noona directed the pops orchestra, you
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know. And Walter Noona and Richard Williams were ____ _____ ‘cause it was- -Walter wanted to rehearse the musicians, when Richard did- -it was probably very tough to work out, and they couldn’t get along. And one of my memories of the most emotional board meeting I went to was when the board was asked to decide which conductor they would keep because the two could not get along. And you know, and you can- -maybe I could be giving you misinformation, but this is the way I saw it. And it was tense. I kept thinking there’s a way to work this out. There’s a way to keep them both here. Walter was, you know, well loved by lots of people, and that pops orchestra had a good following. We don’t want to make all those people angry. But Richard was adamant that he couldn’t work with him and finally they--at about 7:30- -the board meeting started around 4:00, I think. About 7:30 in the evening, they finally came to the very grim decision that Walter would have to go. Lambuth Clarke was there. Have you talked to him at all? Lambuth was on the board for a long time. And he’ll remember that meeting cause he and I were just really so horrified that we had to do this.
Major: I didn’t know that Lambuth had been on the board.
White: For a long time. Quite sure, but again, check me -- I was so upset I went rushing home, no time for dinner, we were due somewhere to play bridge, and I got to the bridge table and burst into tears. So I know I’ll remember that moment, at the very . . . not because I loved Walter so, but I just hate to see a symphony with that kind of, you know, feeling going on, and we didn’t need any enemies. Of course, the all volunteer orchestra was interesting, and the people who played were very enthusiastic about it. When did it become a completely paid orchestra? Do you know about . . .?
Major: 1986.
White: 86. That was a long time. And in the process, of course, various volunteers, not only dropped out, but weren’t considered quite good enough and that’s always a tough thing. Somebody’s played for the symphony for 20 years and suddenly they say I think maybe you better resign. And Dan Vogel, what’s his name?
Major: Winston Dan Vogel.
White: Winston Dan Vogel. As I understood it from the orchestra, he didn’t care much for women in his orchestra. Have you heard this from anybody else?
Major: I have not heard that yet.
White: Well, he made some of the women very uncomfortable. He told one gal, who played the cello, and had played for a good many years, and had taught at an academy- -as far as I know was a good cellist, but he told her she ought to be
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home cooking dinner for her children instead of playing in the symphony. Boy that- -you know how women love to be told your place is underneath a stove.
Major: Yes. That’s right.
White: So that was . . . Winston . . . each conductor who came brought something that was good.
Major: I’d be interested in knowing more about that. You were going to say that about Winston. What did Winston Dan Vogel- -what was his particular . . .?
White: Well, he was from Israel . He was a, kind of a glamour boy, he thought. He had a lot of, you know, it was a big event to have a conductor coming from Israel and he knew some of the, let’s say he knew contemporary music fairly well. But I wish somebody else would confirm it. And he could get some good sound out of the orchestra and he had a lot of verve and excitement but he also could make people very angry, I think. But somebody else would know more about that. I didn’t- -you know, when you’re on the board, you don’t deal directly with the conductors . . .
Major: Really, describe that? If you’re on the board, you don’t deal directly with the conductor. Who deals with the conductor then?
White: Good question. I guess the president of the board does, to an extent, but I think the conductor -- who deals with JoAnn now?
Major: I don’t know. I’ve never been on the board.
White: Well, ask JoAnn. I think they respect JoAnn so much, they probably go along with what she says and does. But when you’re at a board meeting, the main thing they’re putting to you is how much money we’ve got to raise and what are you going to do to raise it. And, you know, are we going to have a fashion show this year, or what are all the dumb things we did to raise money. And nobody’s saying to you do you like the second violinist. And I did serve on an interesting group . . . hmmm, what was his name that was head of it? It was meant to be the group where members of the orchestra brought their worries and complaints, and we were meant to kind of help them talk it out.
Major: A personnel committee of some kind?
White: Yea, that kind of thing. And it was an interesting thing, and sometimes just by letting them express their things, it helped heal it because they’d see well, there’s not any good way to solve this, you know.
Major: Do you remember more or less what time period that was when you served on that grievance committee?
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White: I would say in the early ‘80s. D-- His name begins with a D, and he had played in the orchestra at one point. So he knew- -understood players and if I looked at an old list of the orchestra I could pick it out – Dusey, Dulay. I’m terrible at names, but I remember him. A very, very likable person, he had a good way of, you know, talking with them, and I think maybe we helped soothe some of the feelings in it, and I don’t know whether they have anything like that now or not.
Major: When you were on it, was that when that committee was organized, or did that predate your service?
White: As far as I know, I don’t remember asking about it or the history of it. They just asked me to- -Dozer- -oh what the heck. He just asked me to be on it. I said, “I don’t know much about that.” He said, “Come on, you’ve been writing stories about them and interviewing them and that, and they’ll trust you; come on.” So, it was several years and was pretty interesting. But again, for a while when I was librarian at Norfolk Academy , John Tucker was on the board but not for very long. And board meetings then were at . . . 3:30 in the afternoon, I think. So, there was no way I could get there without leaving school early. So I’d say to John, “Are you going to the board meeting? I better not be away. You express my regrets and things.” I think he failed to do that, and I think they- -it was not his first concern, so I think they thought I’d stopped attending but I didn’t. I hated to cut out of school before things were done.
Major: Sure.
White: So, my record of attendance got pretty questionable for awhile there. But mostly I went whenever I could and attended and listened to the reports, the finances, and what we’re doing and it was fascinating as the orchestra began to grow. It was great to be there when it became all professional, suddenly we were playing in all these- -and Chrysler Hall was built, and we’re playing in all these venues. You know, they always talked about they should have an outdoor concert. Oh, I think Luther told me they had their first outdoor pops concert when he was president. Let’s see first outdoor pops was 1960, he said, and that was quite an occasion. They used to play down at Waterside once- -outdoors in the summertime. But playing outdoors is difficult for an orchestra because if it’s damp, it’s very hard on instruments and sounds and things. I think people love the idea of it, but it’s always- -oh, and the orchestra played when Luther was inaugurated as President of Randolph-Macon College. They played the piece that Edgar Schenkman always liked, The Abduction From the Seraglio. And Luther was choking with laughter. He said my husband always called it “the reduction to the absurdity.” [Laughter] And nobody really thought it was appropriate for any of these occasions, but that’s what they played. But I don’t know- -I think maybe I’ve told you everything I’ve jotted down here, and I’ve taken enough of your time, I would say.
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Major: Well, I have a million questions. You talked good deal about Edgar Schenkman, and I begin to get a sense of what that period was like. What was the Russell Stanger period like?
White: I didn’t know Russell and his wife all that well- -Mildred, but they seemed- -people seemed very fond of them, and Russell is pretty easy to get along. Russell, to me, was not a good speaker, and he had heard some of our- -you know, conductors who talked before a concert- -before playing something and talk, you know. And so, he would try to do that. It was somewhat embarrassing- -JoAnn does it so easily, doesn’t she?
Major: She does.
White: That was not Russell’s strong point, so I think people kind of . . . but I think he was liked, and he was a good conductor but not greatly gifted is what I would say, but I’m not a good judge of that; see what other people say. It was a calm, pleasant time, nobody was angry at him.
Major: A calm, pleasant time, which is not a bad thing.
White: No, and it was a time when the orchestra was in need of that, I think.
Major: Right. I had read that when he came, he had a reputation for being a good choral conductor. Was there a lot of choral music played?
White: I don’t think he conducted the chorus. The Civic Chorus was separate. It seems to me I was the president of the committee of the Civic Chorus to try to keep it going or something awful. But it was not a brilliant moment in my past. You know, it was questionable. It’s wonderful to see it come of age, now, and have a wonderful- -gifted conductor and to be respected and honored. It was not always such.
Major: How did the Russell Stanger period end?
White: I don’t know. I expect Russell was asked to resign, but I don’t know, do you?
Major: I don’t know either.
White: Because he stayed in Norfolk , and he enjoyed his work here. He went on conducting Tanglewood and things like that. I really don’t know what brought it to an end. And the board isn’t always let in on that kind of thing. Did he ask for more money, and they refused? I don’t know.
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Major: Was the board organized with an executive committee who would be likely to handle that kind of thing and the rest of you didn’t know?
White: Yes. We were not on that committee so that’s true; you might find some of the people that would know, yea.
Major: What about the Richard Williams period? Aside from the big conflict with Walter Noona, what about. . .
White: My impression is- -and I don’t know that much about this . . . that Richard and his wife were having problems when they came here, and she wanted to be in New York, and the children maybe were here in school, but she was not, and they were pulling both ways, and he was not very- -they were not very happy campers, I think. And it didn’t seem to work out for anybody. I think he was being difficult partly because he was unhappy. But somebody else would know better, I didn’t know the Williams well. You know, I knew Russell and his wife as friends; we used her as a decorator because she was good at that. Of course, he met her here. That was quite a romance, and everybody enjoyed that.
Major: Well, he was a very good-looking man, I gathered from all the newspaper clippings I saw. He was a very nice looking man.
White: [Laughter]
Major: Richard Williams came just after the merger of the . . . all the different- -the Peninsula Symphony and the Virginia Beach Pops and so on.
White: Boy, that was a tough time.
Major: A very tough time.
White: Yea, a very difficult time and that may have been- -I don’t know the executive committee may know. Minette Cooper may know, and what’s her name – Barr may know.
Major: Clay Barr.
White: Clay, yea, would know that, I’m sure. But I shouldn’t even pretend to have any idea. You know, you hear rumors, you know . . .
Major: Right. During all that period, one of the themes, one of the underlying assumptions that I picked up was that the person who was the conductor of the Norfolk Symphony would live in Norfolk . This would be his primary work, and he would be, you know, situated locally. Can you explain why that was such a predominant viewpoint?
White: Well, that’s Norfolk ’s viewpoint about anything.
[14]
Major: Oh, I see.
White: This should be the place. Well, we brought these conductors here. We
had the symphony long before Richmond did. You know, it was fine to help Richmond grow but I don’t think we had any intention of sending our conductor up there to live. Some players went from Richmond- -from Norfolk up to Richmond but I don’t think- -there may have been some who came down, I don’t know, but I think the idea was that it was the Norfolk Symphony that was really the predominant symphony, you know.
Major: It predated Richmond .
White: Oh, yea.
Major: By a lot.
White: Yea, I think Richmond didn’t begin until Edgar Schenkman was conducting. And of course, Norfolk Symphony’s history goes way back.
Major: Early twenties.
White: Right, there were many, many years there. So I think they thought of Richmond as you know, an off-shoot.
Major: Why don’t we stop here, and I will review the tape and review my questions, and if there are things I’d like to come back to, maybe we can make another date.
White: You can call me on the phone.
END OF INTERVIEW
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